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Pancake predecessor ?  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 08:57 am
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Patrick Attard
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i bought this heavy fan from a car boot sale last august and i simply cannot find any marks on it to know who made it.

 

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 08:58 am
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Patrick Attard
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the blades look aluminium and it runs hot on the local juice here which is 220 v ac

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 08:59 am
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Patrick Attard
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it did not take a guard because i simply cannot find any attachments for it.

there was a speed control once ? i'm not sure.

 

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 09:01 am
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Patrick Attard
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i don't know what it is, but it weighs a ton and looks old.

it's cream in color but a darker paint underneath. not sure if this was an undercoat or the original color.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 09:04 am
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Patrick Attard
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i took these lousy pics with my phone, but i can get better ones if anyone is interested to see them.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 09:16 am
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Patrick Attard
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and it runs slowly when i plug it in, definitely not fast enough to blow any wind at all.

which i don't understand because if anything, it should run faster on 220 v if it was made for 110 v

or not ?

 

 

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 11:56 am
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Ron Powell
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Patrick, I don't really recognize the fan but somehow it reminds me of something I've seen before. I doubt the blades are original to it, they most likely had brass ones either a cast hub. The base reminds me of a Marelli somehow but I just don't know. Try looking through our galleries, you just might find something that matches.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 11:57 am
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Austin B Ko
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Patrick Attard wrote: and it runs slowly when i plug it in, definitely not fast enough to blow any wind at all.

which i don't understand because if anything, it should run faster on 220 v if it was made for 110 v

or not ?

 

 
Most likely your fan needs lubrication. Judging by its wear and age, that thing probably hasn't seen the likes of oil in a long time. 

As for who made it, I'm not to sure. I'm guessing Marelli.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 12:41 pm
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Patrick Attard
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thanks for your input ron.

so it can be a marelli. i would not be surprised giving the close proximity of this island to italy.

what would you say ... late 1800's ??

i would dare say the blades are original. they definitely look as primitive as the fan body.

would there be collectors looking for this type of fan?

i do not want to keep it.

already have my veritys orbit which is still waiting for me to finish it off !

:D

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 12:45 pm
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Patrick Attard
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hi austin

well i did lubricate the bearings (without taking it apart) with motor oil and the blade turns when i spin it around with my finger.

i can't feel any undue resistance to it. so i am still worried about it getting hot even after about 2 minutes working.

the revs are not there. it isn't blowing any wind.

something is not right. 

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 01:21 pm
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Ron Powell
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Patrick, One who knows what it is may very well be interested in it but, to say what its worth I haven't a clue. The slow running could be caused by several things but, I couldn't say anything for sure unless I had it in front of me to examine. It looks that someone has been into it seeing the the back housing is not on correctly and the power cord looks to be coming out of a bolt or screw hole. I'll assume someone had problems with the fan and that is why they got into it.
I'm sure someone here knows what it is and will either post it here or contact you in another way with their interest or information. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 01:21 pm
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Steve Cunningham
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I believe your fan to be a Marelli. They were made to be run non 110 or 220v, depending on how you wire them. Your fan is missing the guard and switch knob.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 02:01 pm
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Fred Berry
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Steve Cunningham wrote: I believe your fan to be a Marelli. They were made to be run non 110 or 220v, depending on how you wire them. Your fan is missing the guard and switch knob.
I was going to say the same, adding the possibility that it could also be an EMI...Cool looking skeletal motor. My EMI has the exact same vent holes, but the motor is not as pancake-shaped as yours. My EMI is 220 volts. The base on your fan definitely looks to be Marelli though...

EDIT: Your rear motor end bell needs to be turned so the oiler faces down.

Last edited on Thu Nov 10th, 2011 02:03 pm by Fred Berry

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 02:09 pm
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Patrick Attard
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i knew nothing about this fan, and now i do. a bit at least.

ron - why isn't the back on properly?

does the oiler have to be at 6 o'clock instead ??? please tell me.

steve - will open it up and take a pic of how it is connected. it's hardly turning at all so someone must have messed up with the wiring.

fred - thanks. you answered the question i posted to ron. will get that fixed when i open it.

so, was the blade in brass originally?

and how come i don't see anywhere where the guard gets fixed? nothing there at all.

 

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 02:14 pm
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Patrick Attard
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.. and is the front ok ?

oiler at 12 o'clock. is that correct ?

 

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 04:23 pm
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Steve Stephens
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I too think your fan may be a Marelli. Below is a somewhat similar E.M.I. dutch fan which shows you how the cage may have been attached to your motor.

Are your fan's lubricating cups for oil or grease? If the cover is removable or if the outside of the cup screws down over the inside of the cup it's probably for grease and would be mounted at noon or, possibly, on one side. If the cup has a wick and spring in it it's most likely an oil cup that will work best (very much best) at the 6 position.

I see enough differences between your fan and this E.M.I. to think it's not an EMI.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 06:21 pm
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Patrick Attard
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thanks for your input steve.
i opened the fan body and only the front is removable, the back is a one piece casting.
please see the pic. took off some of the paint so one can see that there are no seams at all.
so, the back oiler (at 9 o'clock) must be at the right position because the back cannot be rotated.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 06:23 pm
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Patrick Attard
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stator coils
any idea how these can come off so i can see the connections at the back

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 06:25 pm
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Patrick Attard
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the rotor
sorry for the dirt, i didn't clean up anything yet

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 06:27 pm
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Patrick Attard
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front piece with bearing (which looks good) and oiler (which was at the 12 o'clock position)

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 06:28 pm
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Patrick Attard
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the base
minus the speed selector or on / off switvh

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 06:35 pm
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Patrick Attard
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the back

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 06:37 pm
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Patrick Attard
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and another view of the one piece rear casting

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 06:41 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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A side oiler? For groil?

Very interesting

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 06:45 pm
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Patrick Attard
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hello tom
what's a groil ?
sorry but i'm not an expert in nomenclature.

my veritys orbit has a side oiler as well.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 07:30 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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Sorry, an inside joke.

GRease in top cups

OIL in bottom cups

So GROIL in side cup.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 07:46 pm
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Patrick Attard
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oh ok !
got that

:D

any idea how i can take the stator out without breaking the cast iron housing.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 08:08 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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From our FAQ:

Step 3: Remove the Stator -Cast Iron Motor Case

For a cast iron motor case place a short piece of iron pipe inside the motor case (2-3" diameter) and gently tap it on a concrete or steel surface. The mass of the stator will usually break away from the case easily. A few taps and its usually out. If it's real stubborn try the freeze and heat/liquid wrench trick in 3A. Be extra careful if you have a Century skeletal or GE Pancake with an open frame motor.


http://www.fancollectors.org/info/FanStato.htm


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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 08:17 pm
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Steve Stephens
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Patrick, see what you can see when you take the lubricating cups apart. They very well could be grease cups in which case they can work mounted at any position on the clock dial.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 09:35 pm
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Ron Powell
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Not that I know anything about this but, it makes NO sense to mount an oiler or grease cup in that awkward position. It looks to me that it my have had a C- Frame instead originally because of the position of the cup and the head wire coming out the side also. A C- Frame would turn the motor in the proper angle so that the cup would either be in the 12 or 6 o'clock position. I realize everything looks original because of the paint and rust but without seeing a original that is my only conclusion. It may have been cobbled up years ago or was it a wall mount that could only be positioned like a C-Frame so that the cup would be in the upright or lower position?

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 10:03 pm
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Steve Sherwood
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I guess the bushing could be worn out, so they turned the cover so it would not run in the worn spot. I have seen fans where the cover was turned 180 degrees so it would run with a worn out bushing.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 10:12 pm
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Ron Powell
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Steve, But, the rear housing in question does not come off so you can turn it, it is the main housing the trunnion attaches to. Only the front comes off.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 11:07 pm
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Steve Sherwood
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Well I didn't notice that, but from the looks of the excess threads hanging out, which don't look correct to me, maybe someone tapped it out and added it for some reason. Most of the time those oil cups fit up to the housing, some what. WTF do I know about it, obviously nothing, just my opinion.

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 Posted: Thu Nov 10th, 2011 11:43 pm
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Jeff Whitfield
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Patrick

If you haven't seen these slides, they may be of some help to you. There are several and they are on the website and they deal with many aspects of Marelli fans. Here's the link:

http://www.fancollectors.org/info/Marelli%20Characteristics.pdf

Good luck

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 Posted: Fri Nov 11th, 2011 01:07 pm
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Fred Berry
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Although not a Marelli, this Veritys fan definitely has a "groiler"...I wonder why it is mounted sidewaze?? However, the front motor end bell features a standard 6 o'clock oiler...

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 Posted: Fri Nov 11th, 2011 01:22 pm
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Patrick Attard
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yes, incidentally i have a veritys orbit myself and the oiler (or groiler) is mounted sideways.

so in such cases, do you fill it with oil .. or groil ?

i bet oil would leak out within mere minutes. 

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 Posted: Fri Nov 11th, 2011 01:44 pm
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Ron Powell
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Fred, Not to argue but, I believe the oiler you pictured was designed in that position because it has a gearbox in the way so they put it there.The fan in question hasn't. Just my opinion mind you.

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 Posted: Sat Nov 12th, 2011 01:19 am
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Joseph Daniel
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I have a polar cub in wich the oli cup is not quite at 9 butmore 7 or 8

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 Posted: Sun Nov 13th, 2011 06:53 am
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Bill Voigt
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Your picture of the stator shows it's an 8 pole shaded pole motor - so it was

for 125 cycle or higher frequency (125, 133 and 140 were the most common).

On 60 Hz, it can't run over 900 rpm; on 50 Hz not over 750 rpm - which won't

move much air with the original 4 wing blade, but if you run it from

100 - 120 volts, it should stop overheating.

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 Posted: Sun Nov 13th, 2011 09:12 am
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Patrick Attard
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bill that is amazing !

thank you.
you answered the most important question i had - why it's running slow and hot.
the power here is 220 v 50 hz and yes, i would think it's running slower than 1000 rpm.
but i have the explanation now.

that settles it then.
won't renovate the fan if i can't use it here.
will put it up for sale and see if someone wants to renovate it himself.
pity it doesn't have the speed selector and guard.

do you think the blade is original ?
the wings look aluminium but then the web is brass.
something tells me it belongs to this fan .. but then again ... not sure.

thank you all for your immense knowledge on this fascinating subject.
you have all helped me identify this fan and i know much more about it now.


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