| Home | Search 
|
Menu
|
Not logged in - | |
| |||||
| Moderated by: Steve Cunningham, Stan Adams, Rod Rogers |
|
|||||||
| Japan Black finish | Rating: 
|
| Author | Post |
|---|
| Posted: Fri Jun 21st, 2013 01:19 pm |
|
1st Post |
|
Larry Miceli AFCA Member 
|
Ok, I've searched the archives and spent time on the old tool web sites reading up on using a Japan finish instead of modern paint or powder coat. But, I've not been able to find any pictures of a fan project from someone who tried it. At over $60 bucks a quart I don't want to spend the time stripping and cleaning a fan (my 6 wing Emerson) to end up with a crap finish. Has anyone actually tried using the Japan finish recently? If so, some pictures or comments would be appreciated. Thanks. (Thanks to Nick Denney for posting the link for the Japan finish). Attached Image (viewed 1853 times):
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 02:43 am |
|
2nd Post |
|
David Hunter Guest 
|
This is a topic, no matter how much it has been discussed, needs to be talked about more. There are so many antique fans that were japanned but it is very difficult to find real japan. It's expensive but I find the price very reasonable considering the full cost of restoration. On top of this, for many fans, using japan is historically authentic. Please post photos of your project. Also, when you get your japan, would you please post photo of the paint? I am very interested in the "viscosity" of the japan. I have long thought that some japan was thin but other japan was thick. Last edited on Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 03:12 am by David Hunter |
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 02:50 am |
|
3rd Post |
|
Larry Miceli AFCA Member
|
Well, I'm definitely going to try it. I just acquired a nice original SMY GE fan that has chips in the Japan finish. So my first experiment will be to do some touch up, then wet sand and buff to see how it matches. I'll post pictures, but have to get the product first. Attached Image (viewed 1566 times):
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 03:04 am |
|
4th Post |
|
Tom Dreesen AFCA Member 
|
"Full cure in 30 days." No thank you. There are reasons this isn't used anymore.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 03:06 am |
|
5th Post |
|
Nicholas Denney Guest 
|
Larry, don't play with japan until you're set to use a whole quart. You can't let it sit around, it has a (relatively) very short shelf life. I have been advised that the maximum shelf life without special procedure (drawing vacuum etc) is a few weeks to about a month.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 03:08 am |
|
6th Post |
|
Steve Stephens AFCA Member 
|
I do not know if GE used japan after their pancakes. If they did it is not as thick nor as durable as the japan used on the cast iron Emerson, Westy, and R&M fans not to mention many other cast iron fans. I don't think japan was used on stamped steel fans. So many catalogs state "black enamel" which could be japan but could also be regular enamel I would think. Here are some links to japanning: Black japan info ElMorain- Japanning Last edited on Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 03:08 am by Steve Stephens |
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 03:12 am |
|
7th Post |
|
Nicholas Denney Guest
|
Tom Dreesen wrote: "Full cure in 30 days." That's the cure time without "stoving", as they're call it. The japan on our old fans was baked... The risk with baking is that you can get bubbles and cracks as the japan rapidly cures. I have a 21646 with a blemish on the "nose" of the blade - a burst bubble of japan. Last edited on Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 03:13 am by Nicholas Denney |
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 03:21 am |
|
8th Post |
|
Nicholas Denney Guest
|
My memory is coming back a little... asphaltum and a solvent are the bare essentials of japan, but there are often additives used - to improve hardness, give more favorable viscosity... etc. http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_117.shtml
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 03:28 am |
|
9th Post |
|
Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
|
Nicholas Denney wrote: My memory is coming back a little... asphaltum and a solvent are the bare essentials of japan, but there are often additives used - to improve hardness, give more favorable viscosity... etc. And they were dipped, not brushed on.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 09:55 am |
|
10th Post |
|
Larry Miceli AFCA Member
|
Old tools I agree were dipped. But I'm not sure about the fan bases and motor housings. I've never had the finish on the inside of these parts, but it sure would make it an easier process. You'd just need about 5 gallons of the stuff to do it!
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 02:26 pm |
|
11th Post |
|
George Durbin AFCA Member 
|
couple heat lamps dries my paints just fine, I think Japan paint would dry evenly and look good under a couple of heat lamps
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 03:19 pm |
|
12th Post |
|
John Trier AFCA Member 
|
I saw an old film of assembly line production of sewing machines. They were just dipped in a vat of paint on an assembly line. Certainly fans were done the same way. Millions of sewing machines, millions of fans, not efficient to paint any other way. Our challenge is to reproduce the 100 year old patina, throw in a few chips in the paint and restore so no one can tell if it's been repainted or not. There is a real market for this, and an open door for someone's creative juices to flow. I have a nicely repainted early emerson that I have no interest in. Seems like collectors are split 50/50 on repaint vs. original paint. With fans that must be repainted, this seems like a worthy project.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jun 22nd, 2013 11:50 pm |
|
13th Post |
|
Nicholas Denney Guest
|
When you put exacting "reproductions" into a market, it becomes volatile and it can suffer overall. This has already happened with other collectable antiques like radios, thanks to the nitrocellulose lacquer and other products used in their finishing being widely available. The better "originals" out there are often hotly debated because there's still a significant price gap between "masterfully restored" and "immaculately preserved".
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sun Jun 23rd, 2013 12:51 am |
|
14th Post |
|
Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
|
"immaculately preserved" will always win out as it should. It is the area between "immaculately preserved" and rust bucket that is in contention.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sun Jun 23rd, 2013 01:21 am |
|
15th Post |
|
Larry Miceli AFCA Member
|
Wow, looks like i started a healthy discussion! I've seen this debate in the collector car world over and over. An unrestored "preservation class" original will usually win over an excellant restoration, but it is all a matter of condition, and collectibility of the item. An all original GE pancake (in preserved but superior condition) should be worth more than a beautiful restoration. Just as a superb original and unrestored Jaguar XK120 will usually bring far more at auction than a 6 figure restoration. But, it's all a matter of the collectibility of the item and the buyers attitude at the auction. An original AMC Gremlin probably won't bring any more money than a restored Gremlin just because its original. It just isn't worth that much to begin with. My attitude is to restore them if you like them that way, or to preserve them; what ever you enjoy most. Although, preservation should be more than blowing off the dust and re-wiring the fan. Let's face it that it is far more difficult to bring back an original finish to an acceptable level than it is to strip and repaint. And while some may disagree, I don't mean just washing the fan and waxing it. I mean, cleaning, wet sanding and buffing and if necessary blending in some bad areas where chips or rust have taken hold to a level that the casual observer can't tell the preservation work from original. While I love the hobby, most of these fans are not going to provide a substantial difference in price one way or the other. So, just enjoy what ever you enjoy doing, be it restorations or preservations. My interest in the Japan finish was just because I'm a little OCD and wanted to give it a try and see how it turns out!
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sun Jun 23rd, 2013 03:44 am |
|
16th Post |
|
David Hunter Guest
|
Well, one thing's wrong. You did start a healthy discussion but this discussion has been started over and over again. The restoration vs. the preservation debate of antique electric fans is far older than most of us on the AFCA. After all of these years as member, I still consider myself a newbie. The real collectors on here are far smarter and wiser than I. They have been around the block time and time again and just might not choose to air their dirty laundry. Sometimes discretion is the greater part of valor. The only difference with your topic is that it is the most recently posted. I'm hoping, this time, it remains healthy. Last edited on Sun Jun 23rd, 2013 04:27 am by David Hunter |
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Thu Mar 26th, 2020 07:02 pm |
|
17th Post |
|
Jim Roadt AFCA Member 
|
Larry Miceli wrote: I know this is an old post,however, I did use ponypool today and I think it turned out great 1st coat pored on and cooked 390 for 3 hours Because the only housing I had to experiment with had rough powder coating attempt on it the first coat was a little dull and still rough  The second coat poured on again drip drying  After cooking 2nd coat 3 hours 400 degrees I think it looks good and feels good just like japanning should  This is the ponypool I used  Ok, I've searched the archives and spent time on the old tool web sites reading up on using a Japan finish instead of modern paint or powder coat. But, I've not been able to find any pictures of a fan project from someone who tried it. At over $60 bucks a quart I don't want to spend the time stripping and cleaning a fan (my 6 wing Emerson) to end up with a crap finish. Has anyone actually tried using the Japan finish recently? If so, some pictures or comments would be appreciated. Thanks. (Thanks to Nick Denney for posting the link for the Japan finish).
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Thu Mar 26th, 2020 07:31 pm |
|
18th Post |
|
Sean Campbell AFCA Member 
|
Very cool! So you just poured it on and baked it in an oven? How did you pour it and what did you do to bake it without touching it? As far as shelf life is concerned, would the one quart be enough for one 12” fan? I’d feel bad wasting any.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Thu Mar 26th, 2020 07:37 pm |
|
19th Post |
|
Richard Daugird AFCA Member 
|
You broke the rules Jim. "DO NOT STOVE under any circumstances."That's there words, not mine. How did you determine how long to cook it? I had some parts Japanned recently and there were a few small runs. Did you experience that as well? Seems every one of my old Japanned fans that I have cleaned and polished up, none of them had any runs. Last edited on Thu Mar 26th, 2020 07:40 pm by Richard Daugird |
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Thu Mar 26th, 2020 08:01 pm |
|
20th Post |
|
Jim Roadt AFCA Member
|
I did break the rules and cooked it 1.How did I know what temp and time to use? Fortunately I was doing meatloaf at the same time and I just used that temp and time........not I have an outdoor electric smoker I used the recommendations for jappaning for temp and time 2.How did you pour it with out wasting it? Over a bowl and then you can reuse that stuff. ( you will waste some ) I think the dipping it in a bowl with water and paint on top method would be better 3.Is one quart enough for 12 "" I still have about 3/4 of a jar left 4.Did I get any runs? Actually I felt fine thanks 5. How did you hold it without touching it wires through existing holes or screwed in Pic is drip drying prior to cooking that tape is for powder coating and can be heated 
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Thu Mar 26th, 2020 08:16 pm |
|
21st Post |
|
Richard Daugird AFCA Member
|
You should do stand-up comedy, Jim.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2020 11:22 pm |
|
22nd Post |
|
Jim Roadt AFCA Member
|
After cooking 390 degrees 3 hours Just one drip glob that was easy to repair  The globs on top are due to pre existing unknown cast problem 
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2020 11:44 pm |
|
23rd Post |
|
Richard Daugird AFCA Member
|
How do you fix drips/runs? I have a couple that are minor I want to fix.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Mar 28th, 2020 12:21 am |
|
24th Post |
|
Jim Roadt AFCA Member
|
in my case remove blob ( cut it off and hand paint ) If it was major run I would sand ,add another coat and recook
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2020 02:08 pm |
|
25th Post |
|
Rick Huckabee AFCA Member 
|
Thanks Jim. Your coatings look great. Thanks for sharing information with the group . I ordered a can of Ponypool, also have ingredients asphaltum , linseed oil , Rosin etc. will try it.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Thu Apr 2nd, 2020 12:20 am |
|
26th Post |
|
Evan Atkinson AFCA Member 
|
Nice work, thanks for posting Jim. I've got plenty of ceiling fan motors that need new japan enamel so I guess this'll keep me busy during any..ahem...downtime I might have. DANG! This product is now $84 per quart! A 35% increase in price from almost 7 years ago? Don't think fan values have appreciated quite that nicely in the same amount of time. Jeez....
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Thu Apr 2nd, 2020 01:18 am |
|
27th Post |
|
Jim Roadt AFCA Member
|
You can do a lot of fans with on quart. Directions indicate it may go bad if air gets in can, however, the stuff I used was from 11/18
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2020 01:32 am |
|
28th Post |
|
Jim Roadt AFCA Member
|
Another pontypool experiment Perhaps I should experiment on lesser fans in the future ,however, in " these trying times" we must adapt and use what we have ...in this case a 1900 pancake Brushed it on ( kind of self levels ) set for one day and cook at 390 degrees for 4 hours looks way better in person The base had some blemishes in it and I just cooked it an additional 4 hours and looks great Couple of mistakes to learn from 1. Dont recommend dipping method Poured some pontypool in a bowl of water ( pontypool stays on top ) and dip base in. The hook I had to hold gave way at about two feet above bowl...looked like an alien crime scene after. 2. Dont cook too early Cooked after an hour of setting ( thought it would blend better). Started bubbling quickly 3. Dont open smoker door when cooking while wet. That will knock you back a few feet burn your eyes and kill any virus Did crop picture and still sideways...turn your monitor 
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2020 02:00 am |
|
29th Post |
|
Steve Stephens AFCA Member
|
Jim Roadt wrote: ...in this case a 1900 pancakeYou are off only a year or two, no big deal for what you are showing. That is a 1901-02 pancake.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2020 02:11 am |
|
30th Post |
|
Jim Roadt AFCA Member
|
Yep 02 Sorry about that....
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Wed Apr 29th, 2020 02:42 pm |
|
31st Post |
|
Rick Huckabee AFCA Member
|
Looks great , Jim is the Man. Hopefully I will get my stuff in order in next month , begin this journey too! Last edited on Wed Apr 29th, 2020 02:42 pm by Rick Huckabee |
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2021 02:03 am |
|
32nd Post |
|
Jim Roadt AFCA Member
|
Another Pontypool project today on Ritter Dental fan Turned out pretty good. Super shiny and hard finish 20 degrees outside today so I cooked it 7 hours @390 degrees 
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2021 02:27 pm |
|
33rd Post |
|
Steven P Dempsey AFCA Member 
|
Drips & runs are historically correct!! All of my stamped R&M cages have drips, and most old Emerson's have a run or 2. oddly my cast Iron R&Ms have no flaws that I have seen
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2021 06:35 pm |
|
34th Post |
|
Jim Roadt AFCA Member
|
Thanks for pointing out the historical accuracy
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jan 2nd, 2021 11:44 pm |
|
35th Post |
|
Phillip L Clay AFCA Member
|
Rick Powell is the the Japanning expert. He has a spray booth and mixes his own. I use Black Dragon with a camel hair brush with good results. Yes it does take 30 days to cure but it is historically accurate for pre-1925. It is much more forgiving than Rust-o-lium which I find frustrating due to the tendency to peel if re coated within 3 days. I have not had any issues with shelf life. Runs can be an issue but they are easily sanded and touched up with a thinned product. Keeping the work flat helps.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Tue Jan 12th, 2021 09:04 pm |
|
36th Post |
|
Richard Daugird AFCA Member
|
I have some Black Dragon paint, anyone know if I need to shake it before use?
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Tue Jan 12th, 2021 10:23 pm |
|
37th Post |
|
Phillip L Clay AFCA Member
|
Do not shake or stir. Air bubbles are bad news
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Tue Jan 12th, 2021 10:28 pm |
|
38th Post |
|
Richard Daugird AFCA Member
|
O.K. I am shipping a quart to Jim out of my gallon, I wanted to make sure all the ingredients were well mixed so I shook it. I hope it settles before he uses it, I imagine it will.
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Posted: Sat Jan 16th, 2021 08:25 pm |
|
39th Post |
|
Phillip L Clay AFCA Member
|
Hi,Here is a pic of my 1906 pancake drying. Black Dragon applied with a camel hair brush yesterday. Attached Image (viewed 49 times):
|
|||||||
| ||||||||
| Current time is 09:36 pm | |
| AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Pre-1950 (Antique) > Japan Black finish | Top |