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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 01:35 pm
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Steven Mason
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I am waiting for a pancake I got off ebay and would like to know if using my house current will be ok , im a 3 ft. Pipe wrench guy and not to good at electric.  Ty 

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 02:09 pm
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Kim Frank
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You should be okay. If you want, you can always run it on a variac......

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 02:57 pm
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David Hoatson
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Cycles = 60? nothing odd like 140?

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 02:58 pm
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Steven Mason
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Kim Steve Stephens said that also but I don't understand how to use one 

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:01 pm
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Steven Mason
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Pic

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:09 pm
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David Hoatson
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So, what is the best way to run a 120 Hz fan on 60 Hz power?  I think some folks say you need to run higher voltage.  Is it safe to run on 60 Hz?  Will it just run at half speed?  Will it need push starting?

 

Correction: I was wrong, Steve Stephens is right - half voltage, not higher voltage.

Last edited on Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:45 pm by David Hoatson

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:15 pm
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David Hoatson
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I don't know it this works, but it seems like running it on 220 VAC through a full-wave rectifier and through a capacitor (to block DC) would create 110 VAC, 120 Hz power.

 

 

Note that the rectifier flips the part of the sine wave that is negative up to the positive side, creating twice as many humps (120 Hz), 1/2 the voltage (220 -> 110), but a 55V DC offset:

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:16 pm
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Steve Stephens
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Steven, your pancake is 100 volts and 125 cycles so plugging into house current will not work.  With the frequency twice that of our 60 cycle house current you will need to run the fan on about HALF voltage or around  50-55 volts which you can get easily by using a Variac to dial in the lower voltage.  I have my Kill A Watt meter plugged directly into my Powerstat 7.5 amp. "variac" but the Kill A Watt display goes dim around 88 volts so it would be of no use for your situation.

Buy a good quality old variac (Variac or Powerstat brand but others will work also).  Plug variac into your wall outlet and your fan into the variac outlet.  Then run the dial from 0 to 50 and see how the fan runs; you might want to back it off some or increase it slightly.  Run the fan always on the first or high speed and dial in slower speeds using the variac.  Use the variac switch to turn off your fan.

Here is some info that should help.  Let is know if you have any other questions.
http://earlyfans.blogspot.com/2011/02/powering-early-fans.html

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:39 pm
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David Hoatson
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Circuit:

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:44 pm
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Steve Stephens
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David, I don't think t hat will work as it is giving an output of pulsating DC, not AC, and the pancake needs AC.   On your second diagram isn't that a bridge rectifier?  Again, that give a form of DC unless it is not a bridge rectifier in which case I am not certain about it.

I am not certain about halving the voltage when running a double frequency (125 cycles) motor on 60 cycle current so please correct me if you know better.  My understanding is that voltage is inversely proportional to the frequency.  See how your pancake runs on high speed (first switch position) using a Variac and starting out at 50 volts.  The motor should run cool to luke warm at the most.  If it is getting pretty warm might want to get more information and opinions.

Below, running 133 cycle (and 125 cycle) fans on 60 cycles.

Attached Image (viewed 767 times):

Running 133 cycle fan motor.png

Last edited on Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:47 pm by Steve Stephens

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:46 pm
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David Hoatson
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Steven Mason, if you open up the motor, please post a picture.  I'm curious to see the 8-pole windings.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:48 pm
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Steve Stephens
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David Hoatson wrote: Steven Mason, if you open up the motor, please post a picture.  I'm curious to see the 8-pole windings.Good idea since it's possible for the motor to have been rebuilt for 60 cycles where you will see 4 coils instead of 8 that a 125 cycle motor would have.  The rotor probably should have also been changed if the stator coils were.

Last edited on Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:58 pm by Steve Stephens

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:49 pm
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David Hoatson
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Steve Stephens wrote: David, I don't think t hat will work as it is giving an output of pulsating DC, not AC, and the pancake needs AC.   On your second diagram isn't that a bridge rectifier?  Again, that give a form of DC unless it is not a bridge rectifier in which case I am not certain about it.

I am not certain about halving the voltage when running a double frequency (125 cycles) motor on 60 cycle current so please correct me if you know better.  My understanding is that voltage is inversely proportional to the frequency.  See how your pancake runs on high speed (first switch position) using a Variac and starting out at 50 volts.  The motor should run cool to luke warm at the most.  If it is getting pretty warm might want to get more information and opinions.

Below, running 133 cycle (and 125 cycle) fans on 60 cycles.


Pulsating DC = AC, basically.  The capacitor blocks the DC component, letting the 120 Hz sine wave float down to where its centered around 0 volts.

 

The proof is in doing it, so I won't feel sure until I get a 120 Hz pancake and test it out.

:D

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:54 pm
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David Hoatson
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Steve Stephens wrote: David Hoatson wrote: Steven Mason, if you open up the motor, please post a picture.  I'm curious to see the 8-pole windings.Good idea since it's possible for the motor to have been rebuilt for 60 cycles where you will see 4 coils instead of 10.  The rotor probably should have also been changed if the stator coils were.

Steve - Please don't think I'm arguing with you.  I enjoy learning the knowlege you have picked up.

A couple days ago on a different thread, Kim Frank said: My 1901 125 cycle bracket fan motor has eight poles.....

How many different AC pancake stator coil configurations exist?

Last edited on Thu Jan 8th, 2015 03:55 pm by David Hoatson

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 04:01 pm
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Steven Mason
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The seller said it runs good on 3 speeds , it should be a 5 speed ?

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 04:11 pm
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Steve Stephens
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Yes, it was 5 speeds so something is amiss.  Pancakes were 2 speeds through 1901 then 5 speeds 1902 and onwards.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 04:23 pm
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Steven Mason
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Could it be the house current not getting the other 2 speeds not working ? 

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 04:33 pm
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Fred Berry
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Steve M., your fan will start right up and run on house current. It will run about half speed. However, it will run warmer than a 60 cycle fan will. I am not sure about the speeds. We have run many 8- and 10-pole fans on house current, pancakes, Teslas, 710 Emmies, even a 10-pole tankmotor double-lever and all start rapidly and run. But if you plan to use as a continuous daily runner, you would need a 4-pole or 6-pole stator.

125~ = 8-pole, 133~ = 10-pole.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 04:44 pm
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Steve Stephens
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Steven Mason wrote: Could it be the house current not getting the other 2 speeds not working ? 
No, some taps from the coil to the switch might be broken or a problem in the coil.  Should not be too much of a problem to fix.  Pancakes are easy fans to work on I think.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 05:01 pm
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David Hoatson
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If the fan stops running on certain speeds, then you can suspect a broken wire from the speed coil to the switch or a dirty switch contact.  Sartron sells a rather  cheap coil if yours is bad.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 05:05 pm
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Steve Stephens
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If you can repair the coil, etc. you will keep your fan looking more original.  Sartron's new coils, while just find, are not the same shape or size as the originals.  They are skinnier and more square shaped.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 05:06 pm
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David Hoatson
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I am not an expert, but running a 120 Hz fan on 60 Hz should cause the fan to draw more current than its designed for (more watts), while at the same time, running slower.  This is because inductors (coils) have less inductance (AC resistance) at lower frequency.  I think this is why folks recommend lower voltage - to keep it from overheating and possibly burning out.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 05:10 pm
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Steve Stephens
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I will copy and paste some info from posts that Bill Voigt made some years ago.  He knew his stuff and I am not usually able to follow his mind.

Running odd frequency fans on 60 cycles


Bill Voigt
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 Posted: Tue May 4th, 2010 05:04 am

Brad Chaney on Tue Oct 6th, 2009 -

I have been thinking about the 30hz Century that you had and did some reading. What I have read makes it look like if you increased the voltage to twice what it is rated for it would run fine on 60hz.  This seems very strange to me but appears to be true, by maintaining the same voltage to frequency ratio it will balance the flux in the motor. 

I am not sure what effect this would have on the switching and power cords but with only 200v-220v there should not be significant voltage leakage.

Are there any EEs out there that have worked on this problem before?

Yes - You are correct that the motor would run fine, but at Twice 30 hz speed.

[ the 30 hz Century has a 2 pole motor for 1800 rpm synchronous speed]
It would also be able to deliver twice the hp ( same torque at 2X speed).
BUT it would need different blades - the original blades would need Eight
times the hp at 2X speed (and would generate a loud hurricane).
(See my post from Sun Oct 11th, 2009 04:45 pm) -
http://afca.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=10985&forum_id=1&jump_to=78570#p78570

synchronous speed is proportional to the frequency and to one over
the # of poles.

Also -
flux density in the field and rotor iron goes UP proportional to voltage
and down proportional to frequency, so for normal heating the applied
voltage needs to go Down by whatever the ratio of the actual operating
frequency to the rated (nameplate) frequency.

However if the operating frequency is Higher than the nameplate frequency,
things are not as simple.  IF you have a set of blades that require the same
torque as the original blades at the New Higher frequency synchronous speed then you can raise applied voltage by the frequency ratio and have a working fan.   (The horsepower from the motor and that used by the blades will go up by the frequency ratio. )

IF you further reduce the blade pitch so that they require the same HORSEPOWER as the originals did at the nameplate frequency, and raise applied voltage by the square root of the frequency ratio, then the fan will deliver identical airflow (but not identical noise) as it does with the nameplate voltage and frequency input ( and original blades ).

For operation on lower than nameplate frequency, there is a "brickwall" limitation set by the fraction operating frequency / nameplate frequency, which limits the possible motor speed to less than the synchronous speed no matter what voltage is applied.  If modified blades can be gotten (made) that take the same torque at the lower speed, somewhat more "breeze" can be obtained. 



However, for any given motor, torque is proportional to current, so heating of the copper and insulation is a firm limit.  Rewinding is a possibilty for motors with distributed (slot type) field iron, but the is No Way to turn a 10 pole shaded pole stator into a 4 pole one.  -- This post was in response to a question on 10 pole 133 hz pancakes, but is true in general.






 Posted: Sun Oct 11th, 2009 04:04 pm
synchronous speed is proportional to the frequency and to one over the # of poles.
So -
4 pole on 60 Hz (cycles) - 1800 rpm
4 pole on 125 cycles      - 3750 rpm
4 pole on 133 cycles       - 3990 rpm
8 pole on 133 cycles       - 1995 rpm
10 pole on 133 cycles    - 1596 rpm
10 pole on 125 cycles     - 1500 rpm
Also, if the slip is about 11 percent, giving about 1600 rpm for a 4 pole 60 cycle motor, then -
10 pole running speed     - 1420 rpm at 133 cycles,
                                       - 1335 rpm at 125 cycles

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 06:06 pm
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Steven Mason
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You guys are great, I'm learning so much here. I took my tank apart and soldered a new head wire and I found that easy for me. But when it comes to technical stuff I'm lost.  S.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 06:15 pm
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Philip Stoppard
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man what a nightmare bein only 3ft.... your not the wee guy from bad santa are you ? :P

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 06:23 pm
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Steven Mason
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Last edited on Thu Jan 8th, 2015 06:24 pm by Steven Mason

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 06:23 pm
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Steven Mason
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Naaaaaa more like that guy with the big sword .  :D 

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 06:43 pm
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Philip Stoppard
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wow...lol, hope the cake makes it to you ok... be sure to post some pics when it arrives :up:

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 06:54 pm
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Kim Frank
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Here is the stator from my 1901 GE bracket fan. 104 volts 125 cycles. It would not operate on household or half household current, so I put in a '01 104v 60 cycle stator into it. The rotors were the same so I left in the original and the 8 pole stator will go with the fan if it is ever sold or traded......

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 Posted: Thu Jan 8th, 2015 08:04 pm
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David Hoatson
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In anyone is feeling lucky, I would be willing to make a 60 to 120 HZ converter, test it on a light bulb to see voltage and frequency under load, with an oscilloscope and DVM, then bring it to Aiken to test on a fan.  I have a good feeling that it will work fine.  Darryl would need to supply a 220 socket and I'd get the matching plug.  This is probably the best and cheapest solution.

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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2015 12:28 am
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Steven Mason
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David after I get it and open it up and see if it is a 8 pole I'll consider your offer or go with a variac. Does this have the start switch like the tank and have to worry about running on low volts ? Ty  S.

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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2015 01:09 am
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Gary Hagan
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What David is referring to is known as pulsed width modulation aka PWM. Chopped rectified DC waves can be used to regulate motor speed and various other applications.

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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2015 01:28 am
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Steve Stephens
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No start switch on the pancakes, it's a shaded pole motor.  They don't usually like to start on low unless you have a very good one but that's why high is the first speed.

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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2015 01:38 am
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Steven Mason
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See I learned another thing, why they start on high first. 

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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2015 01:38 am
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David Hoatson
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PWM is a modern way to control speed of a motor or the brightness of a lamp. It's a square wave of a constant frequency. On or off. Nothing inbetween. The speed or brightness is increased by making the "on" pulse stay on longer and the "off" part shorter. It's More efficient because the controller doesn't have to burn off the excess power. The old way is like a DC speed coil where voltage is dropped through a resistance and wasted, heating up the coil. 

However, what I'm thinking is just an old-school trick that doubles the frequency while cutting the voltage in half. I think it will create exactly the kind of power that the fan was designed for. I'll plan on making a test setup, putting the parts inside a metal outlet box. I'll test it to make sure it's putting out 120 Hz, 120 volts. But the real test will be a 120 Hz fan. There's a very low chance that something would go wrong. I've been an electrical engineer for 35 years. I'll give it away to whoever lets their fan be tested.

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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2015 02:43 am
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Gary Hagan
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I am somewhat confused.  Your diagram above has a 220 input voltage? Couldnt you achieve the same effect by utilizing a PLL circuit for frequency doubling and still use common line voltage as input? 

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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2015 10:46 am
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Kim Frank
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With the eight pole stator, isn't it hooked up so that every other pole is N or S...ie...N-S-N-S-N-S-N-S? What would happen if it were hooked up N-N-S-S-N-N-S-S? Wouldn't it be essentially a four pole motor and operate on 100/115v 60 cycles? Explain it to me like I'm in third grade....My electrical knowledge is limited to putting on new power cords and I don't understand EE mumbo jumbo......

Last edited on Fri Jan 9th, 2015 10:49 am by Kim Frank

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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2015 12:58 pm
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Fred Berry
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Great thought there Kim!! I too wonder what would happen. That could be a great possibility to run a 125/133 ~ fan on 60~

Wiring the poles in double polarity...Great thought!

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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2015 01:25 pm
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Gary Hagan
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I am not exactly sure if that would work. The way that I understand it is that the current carried by each stator winding produces alternating flux. The distribution of flux through the poles is greatly influenced by the shading coils. As the current increases through the coil it induces a current on the shading coil. Per Lenz's law the direction of the current in the shading coil opposes the cause producing it. See diagram below.
To put it in practical terms think of it like driving a golf ball but trying to hit the ball twice in one swing. Does that make any kind of sense? 
The alternation of N-S-N-S coupled with the physical 2/3rd to 1/3rd ratio of the pole is physically necessary to maximize the effect of the rotating flux. 
But truthfully i am just making a best guess. I do not know for sure. I was a B student. :)

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 Posted: Fri Jan 9th, 2015 01:37 pm
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Fred Berry
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Maybe it would run by removing four of the shades?

 

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