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Emerson 11646 104volt fan  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 01:02 pm
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Don Church
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Hi all,

Can this fan run on 120volt?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121622243207?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


Don C.

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 01:16 pm
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Steve Sherwood
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Yes, the speeds may seem the same a higher voltages, but it will run at 120vac.

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 01:27 pm
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David Hoatson
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That fan has me drooling. One of my favorites. 

Attached Image (viewed 915 times):

image.jpg

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 03:29 pm
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Tom Morel
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With the minute volt differences between 104 and 120, your fan will run fine, but the speeds will have little difference and it will be fast. If you wanted more user freindly speeds, you could plug the fan into a variac and give it the voltage it was designed for. But, make sure you don't go much lower as you could risk not having the centrifugal start switch engage.

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 04:17 pm
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George Durbin
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Tom Morel wrote: With the minute volt differences between 104 and 120, your fan will run fine, but the speeds will have little difference and it will be fast. If you wanted more user freindly speeds, you could plug the fan into a variac and give it the voltage it was designed for. But, make sure you don't go much lower as you could risk not having the centrifugal start switch engage.

I do have an issue running a 104vac fan at 120vac. .. 104 plus or minus 10% is 115vac max... a 100 year old fan at 120vac IS NOT a good idea for a long period of time... Maybe a short period to show it off is ok... in my area we run at peaks often times as high as 122vac. .. This is NOT A GOOD PRACTICE...Other guys can chime in here and say I am full of stuffings...
geo...
geo...

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 07:30 pm
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Chad Hunter
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George Durbin wrote: I do have an issue running a 104vac fan at 120vac. .. 104 plus or minus 10% is 115vac max... a 100 year old fan at 120vac IS NOT a good idea for a long period of time... Maybe a short period to show it off is ok... in my area we run at peaks often times as high as 122vac. .. This is NOT A GOOD PRACTICE...Other guys can chime in here and say I am full of stuffings...
geo...
geo...


I totally agree 100% 

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 08:34 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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I have run and know of many others that run 24/7 nine months of the year with no problems.


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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 08:58 pm
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George Durbin
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Hi Tom...
I am not arguing on this... I will not do it... If your comfortable with running them that's up to you... The standards have always been 10% of ratings of the appliance... For the 40 years I have worked on electrical items this has always been accepted... I know there are exceptions to every thing... It's all fun and games till a house burns down and a lawyer is looking for a scape goat...   JMHO...
geo...

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 09:10 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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At worst you let the smoke out, and there ain't much smoke in these old motors.

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 09:44 pm
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Jim Kovar
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Don Church wrote: ...104 volt fan.  Can this fan run on 120volt?

104 volts plus 5% equals 109 volts.

Attached Image (viewed 854 times):

fan.jpg

Last edited on Fri Apr 17th, 2015 09:49 pm by Jim Kovar

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 09:45 pm
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Nicholas Denney
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George Durbin wrote: I do have an issue running a 104vac fan at 120vac. .. 104 plus or minus 10% is 115vac max... a 100 year old fan at 120vac IS NOT a good idea for a long period of time... Maybe a short period to show it off is ok... in my area we run at peaks often times as high as 122vac. .. This is NOT A GOOD PRACTICE...Other guys can chime in here and say I am full of stuffings...
geo...
geo...

You can look at old catalogs and see that +/- 10% is indeed the intended range for older fan motors, however, it is *safe* to go somewhat beyond that. My own house gets 125v so I'm even farther outside of the 104. My 104 motors get fairly warm. Dialed down to the proper voltage, they stay cold.

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 09:47 pm
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Nicholas Denney
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The operative word there Jim is "satisfactorily". Operating at such a voltage that speed control is lost is not too satisfactory!

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 10:39 pm
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Jim Kovar
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Overvoltage is not good.

Voltage is a kind of stress.

Why overstress a 100 year old motor?


Why unnecessarily stress the insulation of
the wire in the windings?  Could cause an arc
over and result in a shorted winding.


Why force the motor's cores (stator and rotor)
deeper (than designed) into magnetic saturation?

Saturation wastes power.  This wasted power is
heat in the cores.  Some of this heat is transferred
to the windings.


Below...  An air tank that was overstressed.
Pressure,...  another kind of stress.


Attached Image (viewed 801 times):

tank.jpg

Last edited on Fri Apr 17th, 2015 10:55 pm by Jim Kovar

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 11:26 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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Jim Kovar wrote: Overvoltage is not good.

Voltage is a kind of stress.

Why overstress a 100 year old motor?


Why unnecessarily stress the insulation of
the wire in the windings?  Could cause an arc
over and result in a shorted winding.


Why force the motor's cores (stator and rotor)
deeper (than designed) into magnetic saturation?

Saturation wastes power.  This wasted power is
heat in the cores.  Some of this heat is transferred
to the windings.


Below...  An air tank that was overstressed.
Pressure,...  another kind of stress.



If you have a easy way to drop to 104/5 that can be permanently dedicated to a ceiling fan, then lets hear it.

Most of the time they are not spinning at full speed anyway.

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 11:50 pm
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Don Church
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Hi all,

Thank you for your thoughts on 104voltage versus 120voltage.

If the speed switches various resistances is lost giving it just one speed.
I don't think running them for long periods of time would be good at 120v / 125v.

Though the fan would run.

Don C.

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 Posted: Fri Apr 17th, 2015 11:58 pm
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Mitch W. Romero
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I have a fern leaf ceiling fan 104 volts on 120 . It has been on for 34 years 24 hours a day if that says anything - Is there anything we could use on C F's to help  out the volt situation?

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 Posted: Sat Apr 18th, 2015 12:11 am
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Tom Dreesen
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Mitch W. Romero wrote: I have a fern leaf ceiling fan 104 volts on 120 . It has been on for 34 years 24 hours a day if that says anything - Is there anything we could use on C F's to help  out the volt situation?

Says a lot Mitch.  Those puny desk fans are wusses.

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 Posted: Sat Apr 18th, 2015 12:42 am
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David Hoatson
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An increase from 105 to 120 volts is 15%.

A 15% increase in voltage increases the current 15% also, resulting in a 32% increase in Watts (and heat). 1.15 x 1.15 = 1.32. 

Will 32% more power burn up your fan?  Maybe. Maybe not. 

You can buy a small autotransformer with fixed output taps that can turn 120 into 105 (or so).  It works like a Variac. I've never tried it, though. 

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 Posted: Sat Apr 18th, 2015 02:38 am
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Tom Dreesen
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David Hoatson wrote: An increase from 105 to 120 volts is 15%.

A 15% increase in voltage increases the current 15% also, resulting in a 32% increase in Watts (and heat). 1.15 x 1.15 = 1.32. 

Will 32% more power burn up your fan?  Maybe. Maybe not. 

You can buy a small autotransformer with fixed output taps that can turn 120 into 105 (or so).  It works like a Variac. I've never tried it, though.

I have yet to hear of a fire caused by a antique CFThere is a story of one tied down for the winter that got turned on and sat there under power for quite a while without turning.  No damage was indicated.

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 Posted: Sat Apr 18th, 2015 02:42 am
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William Dunlap
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I found this on Amazon. It's a universal step-up step-down transformer 200 watts will convert 120 to 100 volts.

Amazon


Made for Japanese market products used in the USA. 

It's not 104 volts but what's 4 or 5 volts between friends:D?

Run two or three fans with this puppy.

Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Sat Apr 18th, 2015 03:03 am
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David Hoatson
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William Dunlap wrote: I found this on Amazon. It's a universal step-up step-down transformer 200 watts will convert 120 to 100 volts.

Amazon


Looks good. And those of you who like over volting your fan, you can wire the transformer backward and get 140 volts. Now that's moving some air!
(Just joking, don't shoot me. A long week)

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 Posted: Sat Apr 18th, 2015 03:27 am
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Charlie Forster
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New Adjustable AC 50-220V 25A 2000W Motor Speed Controller Voltage Regulator PWM
ww.ebay.com/itm/2000W-Adjustable-AC-50-220V-25A-Motor-Speed-Controller-Voltage-Regulator-PWM-/310994033836?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4868b05cac

there is a selection of several kinds this one above has the low voltage adjust.
 I hooked one up and plugged in two fan motors and they ran for a while and didn't heat up

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 Posted: Sat Apr 18th, 2015 04:29 am
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Russ Huber
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Don Church wrote: Hi all,

Can this fan run on 120volt?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121622243207?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


Don C.


Here is a way to approach it, Don. If the fan motor or motor is really special to you run it at its rated voltage. This can be done safely with a 0-120 VAC Variac rated at 2.5+ amperage. Sometimes you can nail a functional open variac(gutted out of some gizmo) on ebay for cheap.

OR if you just like it and want to run it..... you can run it on 120 using your hand to check the motor temperature after lets say 1/2 hour to an hour of operation. If the motor is to warm to keep your hand on it .....not good. The speed coil or inductor will not slow the motor properly at higher than rated voltage on the medium and slow settings. You will however gain some speed reduction. Motors are like humans....they all deal with pressure differently. Good luck! 

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 Posted: Sat Apr 18th, 2015 04:47 am
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Jim Kovar
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Russ Huber wrote: ...humans....they all deal with pressure differently.
Sometimes it's best to let off a
little steam rather than get to
the point of blowing a gasket.

Attached Image (viewed 722 times):

stressed-out-child.jpg

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 Posted: Sat Apr 18th, 2015 04:13 pm
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Tom Morel
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For reference, I run a 1510 every night for the past two years. Haven't a problem and the fan still runs fine after a careful inspection a couple weeks ago.

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 Posted: Sat Apr 18th, 2015 05:14 pm
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Chris A. Campbell
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I have this same fan and it has never run hot

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 Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2015 04:17 am
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David Hoatson
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I was weak. I ended up buying the fan and picked it up the next day. I felt a bit guilty spending most of my mortgage money, but. Oh, well. It is real nice. The previous restoration added new wires, polished the brass and restored the switch. Nice work. Runs great. I took it apart, cleaned it up, and plan to take it to Aiken. 

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 Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2015 03:03 pm
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Fred Berry
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Antique fan motors were built far and away better than modern.

My 104 volt 1310 runs continuously and I have no problem leaving it running while not being home, and have gone on vacations for a few weeks at a time, with it running. I have left it running 24/7 for entire summer seasons, even oiling it on the fly. The motor never gets warm at all, remaining at room temperature. After leaving it running for the whole season, when I finally shut it off in November, I immediately remove the cage, blade and front motor cover and feel the 12 coils inside. Always they are room temperature, like the fan was never running!! I have 125-135 volts here, and must use special surge protectors for my electronics. I do not own a variac. This is just one example, I have many 104-110 volt fans that run perfect on 125VAC.

Several yearz ago, I reported on a mishap with my 1903 pancake. I left it running 24/7 on its lowest of its 5 speeds. My housemate moved it while dusting, he unplugged it and decided to move it to another spot in the livingroom then plugged it back in and continued his housecleaning. He never realized that the fan had not restarted. It sat there for a week, before I realized it was still on its lowest speed, but not running, I thought he had turned it off. I checked it out. The motor was barely even luke-warm!!!

I have run my 110 volt S4 24/7 for whole seasons too and posted photos of it running here. Motor and windings never get warm, even the bearing races remain room temperature. This fan is running on voltages that are 15 to as much as 20 volts over its specifications, and that is not including all the spikes we get here.

Does 110 count? Only 6 volts different from the 104 rating.

Attached Image (viewed 664 times):

IMG_0102.JPG

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 Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2015 05:35 pm
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Steve Stephens
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Fred Berry wrote:
Several yearz ago, I reported on a mishap with my 1903 pancake. I left it running 24/7 on its lowest of its 5 speeds. My housemate moved it while dusting, he unplugged it and decided to move it to another spot in the livingroom then plugged it back in and continued his housecleaning. He never realized that the fan had not restarted. It sat there for a week, before I realized it was still on its lowest speed, but not running, I thought he had turned it off. I checked it out. The motor was barely even luke-warm!!!


Bill Voigt told me a number of times that GE pancakes can be stalled with a "locked rotor" indefinitely without harming the fan.  Not so with most other fans and that's due to the motor construction of the GE pancake.   

At my first Fanfair 2001 in Eureka Springs, AR there was a nicely restored pancake in dark green that was running.  Someone found that it had stalled out and gotten quite hot.  It was unplugged and recovered.  I think that one was a case of new bearing that was a bit tight.

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 Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2015 06:04 pm
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David Hoatson
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How can you tell when a centrifugal start switch does not release?

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 Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2015 06:17 pm
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George Durbin
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Hi All!
There are exceptions as always... It's what ever you are comfortable with... Lawyers are kept busy with all the exceptions to the rule...
Geo...

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 Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2015 06:23 pm
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Steve Stephens
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David Hoatson wrote: How can you tell when a centrifugal start switch does not release?If you turn the fan off you should hear the switch re-engage; it not it probably did not disengage in the first place.  On many fans the switch will make clicking sounds when engaged.

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 Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2015 04:48 pm
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John McComas
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David Hoatson wrote: How can you tell when a centrifugal start switch does not release?
Draws high starting current!!
Motor gets hot, and if not disconnected, will probably roast the start winding.
If speed is not on high, it could also fry the speed coil.
Some motors growl at you.

Centrifugal switch should kick out at ~ 75% of high speed.
4 pole should kick out ~ 1200 RPM.


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 Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2015 09:06 pm
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David Hoatson
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Steve Stephens wrote: David Hoatson wrote: How can you tell when a centrifugal start switch does not release?If you turn the fan off you should hear the switch re-engage; it not it probably did not disengage in the first place.  On many fans the switch will make clicking sounds when engaged.


I am the new owner of the fan that started this thread.  I'm taking it to Aiken - it really is a nice fan.  Whoever restored it did a good job.  The switch is clean and the fiber insulators look pretty new.  It starts and stops without making as much noise as I thought it would.  It's my first centrifugal starter, so I don't know what is normal.

 

So, when starting, the current should start high, then suddenly get lower?

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 Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2015 09:12 pm
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George Durbin
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David Hoatson wrote: Steve Stephens wrote: David Hoatson wrote: How can you tell when a centrifugal start switch does not release?If you turn the fan off you should hear the switch re-engage; it not it probably did not disengage in the first place.  On many fans the switch will make clicking sounds when engaged.


I am the new owner of the fan that started this thread.  I'm taking it to Aiken - it really is a nice fan.  Whoever restored it did a good job.  The switch is clean and the fiber insulators look pretty new.  It starts and stops without making as much noise as I thought it would.  It's my first centrifugal starter, so I don't know what is normal.

 

So, when starting, the current should start high, then suddenly get lower?

Yes... only for a second or 2.....
Geo...

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 Posted: Thu Jul 16th, 2015 07:04 pm
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Jason Davis
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please help! my 11646 used to be run while I sleep(you know because I can't sleep without a fan on) not too long ago it started making a horrible knocking sound so I haven't been able to run it since then. I tried for several hours yesterday trying to figure out how to put the motor back together. I finally got it together it makes the same knocking sound but quite a bit less and only when I run it tilted back. however it doesn't make the knocking sound when I have it pointed lower position. any help?

 

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 Posted: Thu Jul 16th, 2015 10:23 pm
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Matthew Albach
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Jason,
It could be a worn bearing plus you want to make sure.
The oil holes in the shaft isn't plug up. I do know if it's dry
They do make a horrible sound. When there is no oil

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 Posted: Thu Jul 16th, 2015 11:46 pm
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Jason Davis
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Matthew Albach wrote: Jason,
It could be a worn bearing plus you want to make sure.
The oil holes in the shaft isn't plug up. I do know if it's dry
They do make a horrible sound. When there is no oil


the rotor has a bit of back and forth play. sounds that that sound the early Emerson Jr. sounds when the little orange spacers are broken or worn out. Is the scraping sound when it first comes on normal? is it just the switch part on the back of the rotor activating?

 

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 Posted: Fri Jul 17th, 2015 12:40 am
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Matthew Albach
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Sounds like a grinding type sound and those washers might be wore out
Those washers/spacers keep that from doing that. I got allot of those washers if you like I can send you some to get your fan going let me know

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 Posted: Fri Jul 17th, 2015 12:45 am
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Jason Davis
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awesome- what do I owe you for them?

 

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