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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 02:35 pm
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Henry Carrera
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Hello all,

I have an early centrifugal start with a 1/4" diameter hub shaft and I was wondering if anyone has ever seen a known original BMY with this shaft size or one with a pancake style blade? Just trying to figure out the correct blade for this fan and/or the possibility that someone turned the shaft down to at some point to fit a replacement blade.

Thanks!

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 02:48 pm
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Steve Rockwell
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This is a first version BMY unit, a #34017. I can't address the shaft size question, this is not my fan to measure, but the blade has been termed "correct".

.

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 03:06 pm
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Henry Carrera
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Thanks...that looks like the normal shaft size for a BMY. I don't have the fan in front of me but I think I meant to say 5/16" in my original post. Whatever the pancake shaft size is.

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 03:17 pm
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Steve Stephens
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⅜" motor shaft diameter on my early straight strut BMY, 12" fan.

serial no. 336769

Last edited on Tue May 16th, 2017 06:51 pm by Steve Stephens

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 03:26 pm
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Henry Carrera
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Steve Stephens wrote: ⅜" motor shaft diameter on my early straight strut BMY, 12" fan.

When the cakes switched to rounded blades, do you know if they were still 5/16" or 3/8"?

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 03:31 pm
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Steve Stephens
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I don't know Henry, never had one of those.   My 1905 pancake 12" has a 5/16" motor shaft and I presume that other pancakes also do but don't know about the 1908 cake.

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 03:43 pm
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Henry Carrera
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Steve Stephens wrote: I don't know Henry, never had one of those.   My 1905 pancake 12" has a 5/16" motor shaft and I presume that other pancakes also do but don't know about the 1908 cake.

If 5/16", I'm wondering if they turned the early BMY shafts down to use up leftover cake blades?

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 04:19 pm
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Tim Marks
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I have no idea what may have come original to the fan. It's possible a fan repair sometime in the last 110 years since that fan was made consisted of replacing it with a pizza blade and turning the rotor shaft down.

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 05:15 pm
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Jim Humphrey
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Henry,  what's the serial number on your fan?  The Eckerson GE fan survey shows 330574 as the lowest serial number BMY, and Fred Berry had s/n 332079 which I've see pictures of I think.  I've got s/n 332315 and a few others that are early enough to still use the two rivets on the spider arms and have rear entry head wires.  I really doubt that early factory BMYs ever used 3/8" shafts turned down to 5/16" for any reason.  However, if your fan has a s/n lower than any other previously recorded BMY, all bets are off, a case might be made that something like turning down the shafts happened at the factory.

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 05:33 pm
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Henry Carrera
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Jim Humphrey wrote: Henry,  what's the serial number on your fan?  The Eckerson GE fan survey shows 330574 as the lowest serial number BMY, and Fred Berry had s/n 332079 which I've see pictures of I think.  I've got s/n 332315 and a few others that are early enough to still use the two rivets on the spider arms and have rear entry head wires.  I really doubt that early factory BMYs ever used 3/8" shafts turned down to 5/16" for any reason.  However, if your fan has a s/n lower than any other previously recorded BMY, all bets are off, a case might be made that something like turning down the shafts happened at the factory.

I'll post the serial number this evening when I get home. There was a survey done years back and my number was pretty low on the list IIRC. I was last active about 2001 or so.

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 07:11 pm
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Kim Frank
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Not sure if I can add anything to the conversation but all 10", 12" and 14" Pancakes use a 5/16ths dia. shaft. That's covers all years 1894 - 1908. The 16 inch Cakes use a 3/8ths shaft. All used the pizza slice wings. Latest serial no. for Pancakes is 325389..... There is a gap of 5000 serial numbers after the last cake to the first BMY, with the survey posting a 330574 number. The 12 inch 1908 BMY in the museum is 340522. It has the CSS and uses the 3/8ths shaft. Every 12 inch BMY I've ever owned had the 3/8th shaft......
  

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 Posted: Tue May 16th, 2017 08:02 pm
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Henry Carrera
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Serial #332235

Thanks to everyone for the input. Judging by the serial numbers and no other small shafts it would seem that someone turned the shaft down to make a replacement blade fit.

Last edited on Tue May 16th, 2017 08:06 pm by Henry Carrera

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 12:23 am
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Russ Huber
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Attached Image (viewed 269 times):

GE08.jpg

Last edited on Wed May 17th, 2017 12:23 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 12:39 am
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Steve Stephens
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Those are the 1908 GE fans introduced to the market for the start of the 1908 season but didn't GE come out later in 1908 with the 1908 BMY models?

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 01:00 am
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Henry Carrera
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What is that fan in the bottom row second from the left? It looks like a BMY with pizza slice blades. My base has that shape vs. the smoother one to the right but mine has a slide switch. I wonder if they sometimes just throw a bunch of parts together for the pics or drawings?

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 01:07 am
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Steve Stephens
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The slide switch would be the BMY while the rotary switches were 5 speeds on later pancakes.   I have a hunch that the BMY was a mid-year (approximately) change in models but not sure with the 1907 style pancake being sold at the beginning of 1908.   The late pancake base and the early BMY bases are pretty close in looks.

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 01:33 am
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Henry Carrera
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Hold the presses. I feel like a total doof for wasting everybody's time. The shaft IS NOT turned down but rather 5/16" all the way through the bronze bearing. And I don't believe the bearing was changed because it would be pretty thin  with a 3/8" shaft going through it. I need to take a pic. Can I post pictures here?

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 02:01 am
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Henry Carrera
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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 02:38 am
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Steve Stephens
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Show us some photos of the blade hub, back side, and the blade wings/rivets.

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 02:45 am
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Steve Rockwell
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     How about more photos, Henry? Show the rest of it, just for kicks...        Russ' 13th post with The Electrical Review pics shows a row with four 12" fans. Note all the struts are double-bent. According to catalog art, the 16" pancakes have straight struts with the outer ends making a 90° bend,







the 16" new motor has straight struts with a pan-head type screw clinching the guard ring (note the blade),





and both types of 12" fans have the bent struts pictured.












Catalog art not the best way to document the actual products, but those motors being a new issue (why didn't GE publicize it as such...??!?) these pics might be more reliable than later editions, which frequently re-used non-current images. Steve, what don't you like about the third and fourth being the new motors? Title page gives date of January 1908...

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 03:02 am
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Steve Stephens
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Most of the new introductions were published in the trade journals in April and May or before.   If a new model was introduced after mid-year it's not terribly new news and the announcement may have been held to the next year.   Also, there may have been a good number of fan dealers still with the older stock on hand and, to publicize new models at an unconventional time, may not have been desired.   Make sense...maybe?

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 03:16 am
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Steve Rockwell
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     I guess I'm misunderstanding. January 1908 catalog, so pre-publication work (including photography) end of 1907 and into January, with the new motors there... so why (14th post) "later in 1908 with the 1908 BMY models" release?

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 03:34 am
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Russ Huber
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In the 90s "fan motor season" was honored by what appears to be all concerns.  Motor & dynamo season started in the fall, fan motor season late winter/spring.  Fan motor changes for the following season(engineering) I am sure starts with motor/dynamo season. 

Going into the 20th the smaller concerns I am confident still manufactured product by the season based on customer demand.  Now the corporate giants like GE and Westinghouse............?

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 03:40 am
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Steve Stephens
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Steve Stephens wrote: Those are the 1908 GE fans introduced to the market for the start of the 1908 season but didn't GE come out later in 1908 with the 1908 BMY models?That is the 14th post.   What I am thinking is that GE continued with what seems to be the 1907 model pancakes for their 1908 "cooling season" maybe because the were not ready with the new to be BMY.   So, perhaps, the BMY is ready around July-Aug or so and that might be too late to tout them as the new 1908 model.   Hell, I don't know, just trying to figure out why there was a 1908 model year GE BMY yet the new 1908 GE fan was an old pancake.
GE put out a SUPPLY PARTS OF ELECTRIC FANS catalog in May of 1923 which includes models from the 1907 pancake to 1920 GE fans.  In the catalog they mention "1906 and 1907 Design Electric Fans" and the parts illustrations are for pancake models.  Then they mention together the "1908 and 1909 Design Oscillating and Non-Oscillating Electric Fans" and the parts illustrations are clearly the BMY and sidewinder.   Next is the "1910 Design" (mid base BMY)  then the "1911 and 1912 Design" (high base BMY).

Are those "Design" years what GE called them when the fans were made or did something get shifted a bit by 1923 when this list came out?    I think the real 1908 GE models were the new BMY but, to have something to "introduce" to the trade in a timely manner in earlier 1908 GE showed the same old 1907 pancake.

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 04:49 am
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Steve Rockwell
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Steve, I'm not trying to sustain an argument. I simply am failing to understand why you say "What I am thinking is that GE continued with what seems to be the 1907 model pancakes for their 1908 "cooling season" maybe because the were not ready with the new to be BMY.". Is it that you're speaking exclusively of 60-cycle AC? Russ' article from the Mar 14 1908 Electrical Review shows the 25- & 40-cycle units which are, to my eye, not pancakes. 





     The photos in the article are those used in the January GE catalog, meaning the latest date they could have been produced is January 1908. Catalog art is based on company photographs, so move the date further back in time... and they were photographing actual units, whether prototypical production or experimental (have never seen experimental make a catalog.) They were missing with these things in 1907.....

     Perhaps you're suggesting the 60 Hz came out summertime 1908... ?


      We'll talk some other time about the supply parts bulletins- 1923 is the 4th or 5th issue-- and design years, eh? Russ, your statement, seems to me, continued to apply to the GE for some time beyond...

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 09:22 am
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Henry Carrera
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Steve Stephens wrote: Show us some photos of the blade hub, back side, and the blade wings/rivets.
I think it was a steel blade or something definitely not correct. I bought it probably around 2000 and it's been sitting on the shelf ever since not getting any attention. I see that I extended some wires out of the back vent holes to make sure that it ran. IIRC the start switch is broken and I bypassed it by touching the wires to start the fan.

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 09:48 am
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Henry Carrera
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Steve Rockwell wrote:      How about more photos, Henry? Show the rest of it, just for kicks...        Russ' 13th post with The Electrical Review pics shows a row with four 12" fans. Note all the struts are double-bent. According to catalog art, the 16" pancakes have straight struts with the outer ends making a 90° bend,







the 16" new motor has straight struts with a pan-head type screw clinching the guard ring (note the blade),





and both types of 12" fans have the bent struts pictured.












Catalog art not the best way to document the actual products, but those motors being a new issue (why didn't GE publicize it as such...??!?) these pics might be more reliable than later editions, which frequently re-used non-current images. Steve, what don't you like about the third and fourth being the new motors? Title page gives date of January 1908...



Sure, I can get some more pics. I also need to take the motor apart and look for evidence of modifications. If the shaft size in the rear bell is also 5/16" I would tend to think that the front is original. It wouldn't make sense to have a 3/8" in the rear and 5/16" in the front. My 332235 serial # is not making sense though if it's a true 5/16" fan. Perhaps someone repaired it by changing both bells and rotor with an earlier serial # fan?

The photo's above look promising. Very early BMY's could have used pizza slice or rounded blades from the late pancakes with a 5/16" shaft.

 

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 11:58 am
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Kim Frank
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What am I missing here....Fan Motor season? Is there such a thing? Wouldn't Southern tier states cooling season differ from Northern tier states. And what about South America and Australia....GE in 1908 is an international company.





The GE catalog I have is dated January 1908, no.4560 and states "This Company carries a stock of all motors and supplies listed in this catalogue, and IS prepared to make prompt shipments". This catalog shows 12 and 16 inch swivel trunnion Pancakes with voltages of 100/115 or 190/220 and cycles of 60 or 125/140. The catalog also specifies motors can be built to special order of voltages/cycles.

    The 1908 catalog also shows the 12 and 16 inch BMY's offered in 110v/25 cycles and 125 volts 40 cycles. There is no mention of these motors being offered in any other volt/cycles.....so BMY's with 60 cycles came in when???

   1908 Catalog artwork shows same style struts for both pancake and BMY models, that being the ones where the cage is held to the strut by a screw head. The artwork also shows all fans, with the exception of the 12 inch BMY, having pizza slice blades.

    Exhaust fans in the catalog are 12 and 16 inch, with the cake motors being 60 cycles and the BMY motors being 25 or 40 cycles. The motors all feature pizza slice blades.

    Something else that I found interesting is the mention of serial numbers. On page six of this catalog, it mentions that adapters 23xxx are for use with fans bearing serial numbers under 210,000 and that adapters 39xxx are for use with fans bearing serial numbers above and including 210,000. I know that the trunnion stems were changed from 5/8th to 3/4 inch sometime into 1905, so maybe that is what they are referring to. Pretty specific though to say fans on either side of that number are different.

    Steve R.....in your research at the archives, is there any reference to serial number between 325400 and 330000? Seems odd that there would be this void in their motor numbering system.....





Last edited on Wed May 17th, 2017 12:02 pm by Kim Frank

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 12:00 pm
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Mike Petree
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Nothing to add to the discussion except to say welcome back Henry!

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 12:29 pm
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Henry Carrera
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Mike Petree wrote: Nothing to add to the discussion except to say welcome back Henry!

Thanks Mike :D

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 01:26 pm
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Steve Rockwell
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        Kim,     Firstly, in 25th post I typed they "were messing with these things in 1907", good old spill chick, spall chock, spoil chalk, spell check.     Answering post #28, I've found nothing pertaining to serial numbers and am told there really won't be anything. Nonetheless, it's worthwhile casting a wide net and seeing what turns up... I am looking.
     With those brackets, I'm observing two different brass pendant pieces, one much longer and exaggerated than the other...
     After a night's rest and the chance to look at all this gobbledygook with fresh eyes, time for an inclusive theory, along these lines:  GE was transitioning to the new, far less ornate motor, but wanted to use up existing stock and couldn't count on repair and replacement to sufficiently diminish the pile. They introduced the new motor in 25 & 40 cycles while still marketing the last of the pancakes, to introduce the remaining combinations of voltage and Hertz when the surplus was sufficiently diminished (would that cover it, Steve?). Keep in mind that GE had a concerted push to promote 40-cycle as a compromise standard, an effort which only receded circa 1920(s), so they were serving existing markets while not crowding the remaining pancake sales. They couldn't or anyway didn't accurately estimate the production vis-a-vis serial numbers, so took the expedient action of arbitrarily leaving a sufficient gap in the numbers to provide for the remaining stock, and simply started numbering the new models beginning at that arbitrary 330000 number. I've been speculating that something similar took place with the production of residence fans within a model year-- read that as form designation-- in which residence serial numbers seem in instances to precede the numbers of the general run of fans (more theory). Also worth noting that this (circa) is the era of change from the Lynn MA facility to Pittsfield MA for the manufacture of fans... and perhaps in earliest days of that transition they had to limit the number of variations the line was assembling... 
     And these notions cover the transitioning of blades, where we started with this thread... I think Russ pointed out the moment when all these changes were truly becoming evident... Henry, is your fan 12" or 16"?

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 01:58 pm
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Henry Carrera
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It's a 12", at least that is the size of the blade and cage it had on it.

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 03:25 pm
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Steve Stephens
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Steve Rockwell wrote: They introduced the new motor in 25 & 40 cycles while still marketing the last of the pancakes, to introduce the remaining combinations of voltage and Hertz when the surplus was sufficiently diminished (would that cover it, Steve?).
Yes, that does cover things Steve.   I was referring to (and should have said) the 60 cycle motors and not the 25 and 40 cycle motors.   I agree with your suggestions but my question still remains as to when the 1908 GE 60 cycle desk fan motors changed from the 1907 style pancake motor to the new BMY motor.

Kim, good point about GE being the large corporation that it was and supplying significant parts of the rest of the world.   I've had this thought that GE would sell fans mostly in the late spring to early fall then sales would fall pretty flat at which time the factory continued to make fans and stockpile for the next "cooling season" (an indistinct term to coincide with when people mostly used and needed fans).  I don't know what percentage of GE fans would have been sold in other parts of the country or if many in the South would continued to purchase fans in the late fall through early spring.  If everyone were like Fred Berry they may have been running fans 24/7 throughout the year.
I can see the next year's model fans being made beginning sometime in the late fall or winter.

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 09:21 pm
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Jim Humphrey
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Henry,
I looked thru some photos I took of BMYs during the restoration process and came across one that shows the front bushing on S/N 341024.  I think it's thinner walled than the one on your fan that you showed in a previous post in this thread.  Have you checked the rear rotor shaft & bushing on your's for size?  I wonder if the rear is the same diameter as the front.

Jim

 

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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 09:44 pm
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Henry Carrera
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Back to square one. The shaft is 3/8" on both ends where it goes through the bearings. Someone probably turned it down to fit a blade that they had.















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 Posted: Wed May 17th, 2017 09:50 pm
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Henry Carrera
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Jim Humphrey wrote: Henry,
I looked thru some photos I took of BMYs during the restoration process and came across one that shows the front bushing on S/N 341024.  I think it's thinner walled than the one on your fan that you showed in a previous post in this thread.  Have you checked the rear rotor shaft & bushing on your's for size?  I wonder if the rear is the same diameter as the front.

Jim
 


Thanks for checking Jim...

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 Posted: Thu May 18th, 2017 01:04 am
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Jim Humphrey
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No problem Henry, and I just looked at one of my older BMYs and it has a thinner bearing than what your's appears to be, so I don't know what's going on there.  Hey, any chance you might turn your orange colored name to green on this site?  You've got some history with this outfit I'm sure.  I took about 10 years off also, other hobbies got in the way, but ended up coming back in 2012 and haven't regretted it for a minute.  Be great to have you back!
Jim

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 Posted: Thu May 18th, 2017 03:19 am
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Russ Huber
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Henry Carrera wrote: Back to square one. The shaft is 3/8" on both ends where it goes through the bearings. Someone probably turned it down to fit a blade that they had.That's exactly what that nasty "Someone" did.    That "Someone" probably had a much later teens 3 Star or Round Back blade in the stash. :D  

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 Posted: Thu May 18th, 2017 09:35 am
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Henry Carrera
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Jim Humphrey wrote: No problem Henry, and I just looked at one of my older BMYs and it has a thinner bearing than what your's appears to be, so I don't know what's going on there.  Hey, any chance you might turn your orange colored name to green on this site?  You've got some history with this outfit I'm sure.  I took about 10 years off also, other hobbies got in the way, but ended up coming back in 2012 and haven't regretted it for a minute.  Be great to have you back!
Jim


Thank you for the warm welcome Jim. My hobbies are more like flashes in the pan and then I move on to something else. I once saw someone running an old fan which intrigued me and my original plan was to acquire just one but we all know how that turns out. :evil It's time to thin down the herd so I'll most likely pop in and out with some questions and check out the BST sub-forum. Once I retire who knows what could happen. I enjoy working on fans the most so maybe I'll pick that part of the hobby back up.

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 Posted: Thu May 18th, 2017 09:44 am
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Henry Carrera
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Russ Huber wrote: Henry Carrera wrote: Back to square one. The shaft is 3/8" on both ends where it goes through the bearings. Someone probably turned it down to fit a blade that they had.That's exactly what that nasty "Someone" did.    That "Someone" probably had a much later teens 3 Star or Round Back blade in the stash. :D 

I'll eventually dig the blade and cage out and see what was on it. I'm pretty sure it's steel and maybe not even GE. Now I need to decide what blade to look for. If I can find an original 2 rivet I'll definitely fix the shaft up and go with that.

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