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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 12:26 pm
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Luke Uselman
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Does anyone have a clear understanding of what would be the issue here? Do I need to have the speed coil rebuilt or is something wired wrong?

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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 12:49 pm
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Lane Shirey
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That's common when you run it with today's higher household current.  If you want speed distinction, get a variac and run it at the design voltage that is found on the motor tag.  Or, Rick Huckabee can rewind the speed coil to get better distinction, but there's nothing wrong with your's

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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 01:29 pm
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Tristan Crider
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I have the 27645 and the same exact problem. There is no noticeable speed difference but it does show a slight wattage increase from speed to speed. :hammer:

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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 04:34 pm
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Steve Stephens
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My 27645 is all original and running on 120-25 house voltage and retains a good speed separation among the three speeds.  On most newer fans (after c.1910 maybe) I find noticeable speed separation even on house current, at least enough to tell that the fan has three different speeds.   Your problem may be a bad speed coil or the wiring is not as it should be.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 10:54 pm
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Levi Mevis
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I had an Emerson 77648 that had the same issue, I ended up giving it away at Fandango last year, traded it for a Hunter Zephair because I didn't really understand enough about how to work on those Emersons to make it worth my time keeping it.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 11:33 pm
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Lawrence Smith
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before you do anything-- get a kill a watt meter & take amp /watt readings at each speed. That will guide your next step. Google killawatt-- home depot had them for $25ish. Lawrence 

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 Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2018 11:45 pm
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Stan Adams
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ILane is mostly correct, but I have several 27646s running on wall current, they all have definite speed reductions. Sounds like you have a weak choke.

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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 05:41 pm
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Carl Parker
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take an ohms reading between all your choke taps. The higher the variation between tap ohms the greater the speed separations will be. The closer the readings the less speed change. You'd be surprised by the number of variances one can find between the same models/styles taking readings from the 'same' stators and chokes. Huckabee told me 5 years ago to take records of all this on account of the number of these things I see. Same fan models can and do often have variations of readings in both stators and chokes resulting in speed changes and rpm differences of the same model/style. One 29646 can have much different speed variances and different rpms than another. Can apply to just about any mfgr.

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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 05:55 pm
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Jim Humphrey
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Carl, so what do you attribute the varying ohms between chokes of the same model?  I've noticed a lot of that also, and just chalked it up to an internal short at some point in one (or maybe more than one) section(s) of the choke coil, but I haven't actually heard anyone say if that's what they found when unwinding a coil.  Or if it's even discoverable.  But I'd have to think that it isn't a quality control issue at the manufacturer, they wound thousands of each model of choke and must have had machines that kept count to +/- some tolerance.

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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 07:58 pm
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Tom Newcity
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The speed problem with some of these Emersons is a dilemma.  Reducing the line voltage to 110 does nothing on the ones that I have tested.  But I have found that an increase in load combined with a decrease in voltage works great.  Load is increased with an increase in blade pitch, while voltage is decreased by rewinding the speed control choke.  Some Emerson speed controls have enough voltage drop that a rewind is not necessary.........just have to increase the load.  But remember that with little or no load,  there will be little difference in RPM with a change in voltage. 

With my XX646 rebuilds, I get the RPMs to 950, 1250, and 1550 with a great breeze.  And before rebuild, they are usually 1450, 1500, and 1550.......AKA fast, faster, and fastest.  And sometimes you can't even feel an appreciable breeze. 

 

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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 08:52 pm
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William Dunlap
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I was wondering if when the load is increase(pitch increased) you can see any significant increase in the watts consumed?

Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Mon Mar 12th, 2018 06:27 pm
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Tom Newcity
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William Dunlap wrote: I was wondering if when the load is increase(pitch increased) you can see any significant increase in the watts consumed?



Cheers,

Bill
Bill,

I don't have any notes on the original watts.  I do however have notes on trials with rewound choke coils and reformed blades.  The readings in the LOW position average only 35 to 40 watts.  I have a junker 29646 that I picked up this morning and if it runs, I'll get a "before" reading on it.  (All of my inventory 29646s have no power cords.)

When reforming blades to increase pitch, it is easy to roll in too much pitch causing the motor to not get up to a running speed or even not starting.  When I roll blades, I roll in small increments until I achieve about 1/4" cup, which has been determined from many trial and errors.   I determine the cup by measuring the deepest point from a straight edge placed across the blade from the two highest points.  I'll post a pic when I get back out to the shop.

Cheers,

Tom

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 Posted: Tue Mar 13th, 2018 02:05 am
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Lucas Beshara
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Tom Newcity wrote: William Dunlap wrote: I was wondering if when the load is increase(pitch increased) you can see any significant increase in the watts consumed?



Cheers,

Bill
Bill,

I don't have any notes on the original watts.  I do however have notes on trials with rewound choke coils and reformed blades.  The readings in the LOW position average only 35 to 40 watts.  I have a junker 29646 that I picked up this morning and if it runs, I'll get a "before" reading on it.  (All of my inventory 29646s have no power cords.)

When reforming blades to increase pitch, it is easy to roll in too much pitch causing the motor to not get up to a running speed or even not starting.  When I roll blades, I roll in small increments until I achieve about 1/4" cup, which has been determined from many trial and errors.   I determine the cup by measuring the deepest point from a straight edge placed across the blade from the two highest points.  I'll post a pic when I get back out to the shop.

Cheers,

Tom
Tom hit the nail on the head here. The pitch of the blades can totally change the character of a fan. Didn't think about it as being the load, but it makes complete sense.  More load and the speed coil becomes more relavent in its operation. It seems like the blades naturally want to flatten and will move after many many hours of operation. I often have to re-clock and strobe blades many times between running for a day or two on high. If you think you have them right well run it for a day and take another look. I don't even bother removing the colored tape for a few weeks until they naturally migrate to somewhere they like better. Good advice Mr NewcityAnd as for the amp draw you can change the amp draw by a few tenths just by blade pitch. Between the blade static and dynamic balancing it can be a chore. Sometimes it will take me weeks :hammer:

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 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2018 09:17 pm
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Tom Newcity
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Well I finally got around to doing some trials and hopefully this helps deal with this Emerson problem.  I am just going to do a summary of my notes.  Did not have a 27646 with original speed control, but found an early 29646 with flat blades and its original speed control.  All measurements were made with 120 VAC applied.  In section "B", blades were removed, rolled, and riveted back onto hub.





  A.  1.  Original flat blades w/original speed control.









                        RPMs         AMPS            WATTS



        LO                1450           .59                 42



        MD               1500           .61                 45







     2.  Same as 1 with rebuilt speed control.





        LO                1150           .51                 37



        MD               1400           .58                 42





   B.  1.  Original blades with 1/4" cup pitch and original speed control. 





        LO                1100           .71                 52



        MD               1250           .73                 56





       2.  With rebuilt speed control.





        LO                 950            .64                44



        MD               1250           .72                  53





This is the 29646 used for the trial.

 



Attached Image (viewed 120 times):

blade cup trial on 29646.jpg

Last edited on Mon Mar 19th, 2018 11:31 pm by Tom Newcity

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 Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2018 09:21 pm
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Tom Newcity
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This is the measurement tool.  Still haven't figured out how to navigate this screwed up site.

Attached Image (viewed 115 times):

blade roll cup guide.jpg

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 Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2018 02:12 am
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Lane Shirey
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Tom, the same thing happens to me when I reply to anything on my PC. The opposite happens when I reply or type anything on my iPad. It subtracts line spacing and the PC adds line spacing.  Go figure. 

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 Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2018 03:59 am
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William Dunlap
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A.  1.  Original flat blades w/original speed control.

                        RPMs         AMPS            WATTS

        LO                1450           .59                 42
        MD               1500           .61                 45

     2.  Same as 1 with rebuilt speed control.

        LO                1150           .51                 37

        MD               1400           .58                 4

   B.  1.  Original blades with 1/4" cup pitch and original speed control. 

        LO                1100           .71                 52
        MD               1250           .73                 56

       2.  With rebuilt speed control.

        LO                 950            .64                44
        MD               1250           .72                53


It looks to me like a significant jump in power consumption with the increased pitch alone. It's the modified speed control that tames everything.

I'm currently working on a Trojan wing assembly. What is quite interesting to me is the completely different way the radius is applied to the individual wings. On this one, the lengthwise axis of the curve is at an angle, not to the center of the hub like you might expect.

This one is going to challenge me, I think.
Cheers,
Bill

Last edited on Mon Mar 19th, 2018 04:01 am by William Dunlap

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