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The Eck ----Ming Blade Use 17-21  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 02:08 am
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Russ Huber
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It appears in 17 the Eck ----Ming blade was introduced on a 12' model.  I see in 19 electrical trade the use of the Ming  blade on 16" DC only.  In 20 electrical trade it is stated Ming blade on 16" AC and DC models only due to the fact the larger diameter blade makes the most noise.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 01:58 pm
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George Durbin
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Hi Russ!

Ya reckon WW1 had anything to do with factory decisions about materials and what was more profitable?? ☺☺☺


Geo...

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 02:08 pm
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Louis Luu
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Sounds interesting.  Here is one I picked up...tired of staring at it on my computer screen.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 02:35 pm
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Stephen Chew
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:clap:Awesome fan Louis.I have a later model M 16" side gear with Ming blade and steel cage. It is one of my favorite in my collection. :clap:

Last edited on Sat Mar 10th, 2018 02:39 pm by Stephen Chew

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 02:36 pm
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Louis Luu
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Only draw back is 220v. 

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 02:41 pm
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Stephen Chew
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That just makes your fan even rarer.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 03:23 pm
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David Allen
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I'm a newby to the really old fans... so I have to ask; what is meant by "Ming" in this instance? I see comments about material choices due to the war, so I was expecting some nonmetallic material. But the blades in Stephen's picture seem to be polished brass of some style; while Luis's may be something else.

Sorry if this is a dumb question! :hammer:

 

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 03:36 pm
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Louis Luu
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Ming blade

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 03:37 pm
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Louis Luu
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Does anyone know if the rear cap is original?

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 03:46 pm
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David Allen
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Louis Luu wrote: Ming blade




OK!  I see now, the blade is made of two pairs of opposing wings, offset axially with a tube-style hub.  Very cool! Thanks for the close-up picture.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 04:17 pm
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Steve Stephens
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There was also a very different 12" Ming blade used on some (or all?) later Ecks where both opposing pair of blades were in the same plane but the wings were of a different length.







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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 04:21 pm
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David Allen
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Steve Stephens wrote: There was also a very different 12" Ming blade used on some (or all?) later Ecks where both opposing pair of blades were in the same plane but the wings were of a different length.









That one is really artistic.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 04:45 pm
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Louis Luu
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Does the steel blade have ming stamped on it or is it just the brass ones.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 05:00 pm
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Russ Huber
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David Allen wrote: I'm a newby to the really old fans... so I have to ask; what is meant by "Ming" in this instance? I see comments about material choices due to the war, so I was expecting some nonmetallic material. But the blades in Stephen's picture seem to be polished brass of some style; while Luis's may be something else.

Sorry if this is a dumb question! :hammer:

 

No such thing as a "dumb" question.  The only thing for most part that gets in the way of asking a question about something you don't know here is the male ego. God forbid you don't let the other guys here that you don't know or understand something about silly old fans.   Good to see your ego didn't get in the way.   :clap: :D


If you follow electrical trade reference to the Eck - - - ming  blade starting with its introduction in 1917 you will see this.........  - - - ming blade.  It was Eck Dynamo's method of marketing the new blade.   The 3 hyphens - - - you will see prior to the word "ming" symbolize the removal of the "Hum" from h u m ming. Thus....the Eck claimed HUM less - - -ming blade. 





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Last edited on Sat Mar 10th, 2018 05:05 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 05:13 pm
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Russ Huber
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George Durbin wrote: Hi Russ!

Ya reckon WW1 had anything to do with factory decisions about materials and what was more profitable?? ☺☺☺


Geo...

Could be??, George.  My personal belief is the Eck - - - ming blade was a marketing tactic that flopped.  Following electrical trade 17-21 I see the non-symmetrical ming blade in use very possibly 17-18 on both 12" & 16" models.  19 now states the - - - ming blade changed and symmetrical(pizza wing) used only on the 16" DC.  20+ makes reference of the - - - ming now used on both AC and DC 16" models 

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 05:20 pm
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George Durbin
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Hi Russ!I agree about the marketing tactics used by the companies trying to survive during and after both wars for that matter... The history is a big part of fanning now that I am into it... The wars were "all in" decisions for a lot of companies then, when brass shells seemed more important than a fan...

Geo...

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 05:33 pm
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Russ Huber
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Must of been in the far corner of grandpa's attic with a lamp shade over it.  An Eck 220 VDC surviving the WW11 scrap drive and the trips to the dump in years to follow?  

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 Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2018 05:52 pm
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Steve Stephens
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That fan Russ, could it be a Tigre or another rebadged Eck?  An Eck motor tag on a DC fan would normally be red although the red could have worn off or have been removed.





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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 03:34 am
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Russ Huber
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Steve Stephens wrote: That fan Russ, could it be a Tigre or another rebadged Eck?  An Eck motor tag on a DC fan would normally be red although the red could have worn off or have been removed.



Hey Louis, is it possible for you to take a picture of your DC Eck motor tag?

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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 03:44 am
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Louis Luu
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Here you go.


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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 03:30 pm
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David Allen
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Russ Huber wrote: David Allen wrote: I'm a newby to the really old fans... so I have to ask; what is meant by "Ming" in this instance? I see comments about material choices due to the war, so I was expecting some nonmetallic material. But the blades in Stephen's picture seem to be polished brass of some style; while Luis's may be something else.



Sorry if this is a dumb question! :hammer:



 



No such thing as a "dumb" question.  The only thing for most part that gets in the way of asking a question about something you don't know here is the male ego. God forbid you don't let the other guys here that you don't know or understand something about silly old fans.   Good to see your ego didn't get in the way.   :clap: :D





If you follow electrical trade reference to the Eck - - - ming  blade starting with its introduction in 1917 you will see this.........  - - - ming blade.  It was Eck Dynamo's method of marketing the new blade.   The 3 hyphens - - - you will see prior to the word "ming" symbolize the removal of the "Hum" from h u m ming. Thus....the Eck claimed HUM less - - -ming blade. 













LOL I'm one of those who is happy to know a bunch of stuff; but not ashamed to NOT KNOW a whole lot more than I do know!  Those who know a lot learned it by asking and reading. No shame in that! 

Very good marketing about the ---Ming blade  name.  I just thought it was a design made by someone with an Asian name! :hammer:


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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 04:40 pm
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Russ Huber
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.

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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 05:24 pm
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Russ Huber
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http://www.rexresearch.com/irving/irving.htm

James IRVING


Scientific American (July 6, 1918), p. 14

"An Air Screw That Ridicules Propeller Theories"



Were it not for the stern theories regulating the design of air screws, we would not be using propellers today which differ but little from those of the pioneer panes. Indeed, while airplanes and engines have been constantly improved during the past 10 years, the air screw --- the most important member of any aircraft --- has remained practically at  a standstill, due to the adherences of propeller makers to those orthodox theories which no one dared violate. It has, therefore, remained for James A. Irving of New York City to disregard most air screw theories and strike forth along new lines. As a result, he has invented a new propeller or tractor screw of radical design which, according to the testimony of several well-known aviators who have tried it on their machines, presents a definite advance in air screws. Essentially, Mr Irving's device is two propellers in one, as will be noted in the accompanying illustrations. In the working model shown, one set of blades is 8 feet 6 inches in diameter, while the other is about 20% shorter. The longer blades may be termed the leading blades, while the shorter ones may be termed the auxiliary blades. The blades are built up of 3-ply ash and mahogany, the latter being laminated crosswise of the grain of the two outside strips of ash; this arrangement, the inventor holds, is positive insurance against splitting. The blades are mounted upon Monel metal arms the shanks of which are taper-fitted to a two part hub of the same metal, provided with sockets for the purpose. The tapered shanks are drawn home and securely held by means of specially designed llock-nuts, to any desired pitch which may be graduated upon the shanks and hub sockets. In the side view of the new propeller it will be noted that the arms and blades have a dihedral arrangement, which calls for an explanation. There are four reasons for this design, according to the inventor: First, in effecting centripetal action, drawing and forcing air to the center, thus eliminating radial slip; second, applied to the auxiliary blades for the purpose of gripping and concentrating the air, effecting a powerful center thrust at the pint where the conventional propeller is absolutely void of impelling force; third, the effect upon the long, leading blades where centrifugal force against great air pressure, is to relieve the blades of practically all except lateral and torque strains; fourth, owing to the fact that the tips of the blades are kept under a rigid, constant tension between centrifugal force and air pressure, vibration or fluttering is reduced to a minimum or entirely eliminated, and this leads to a considerable correction of the very objectionable whir or hum of the conventional type of propeller. In fact, the proof of the latter is indisputably brought out in an electric-fan blade of similar design invented by Mr Irving, which is now being offered as the regular equipment of a well-known electric desk-type fan, and which is practically silent. Structurally, the new propeller has distinct advantages. The hub of the new air screw becomes part of the engine, and any changes in blades for any reason can be easily made. Extra leading blades can be carried in the airplane for emergency use. In cases of ordinary propeller breakage were but one or even both of the leading blades would be damaged, the cost of repairs would not exceed one-third of the net cost of the complete propeller; in short, fully 50% of the new propeller would be practically indestructible, outliving several motors. An ingenious arrangement is provided for the ready balancing of the companion blades. Small lead washers are placed in holes in both blades, and by transferring washers from one hole to another balance is soon established. The washers are held in place by a screw in each hole. One of his objects in making the auxiliary blades shorter than the leaders, explains Mr Irving, is for the purpose of obtaining an advanced, differential pitch with which to create impelling force from the inner, slow-speed circle or "dead" space; and results from numerous practical flying tests quite justify the claim that the propeller is fully one-third more efficient than the usual design, and at no extra cost of power. When used as a tractor, the concentrating action of the auxiliary blades results in enveloping the fuselage for its entire length within a cylinder of air wash of somewhat less diameter than the short blades. It is also apparent that these auxiliary blades serve still another and valuable purpose, namely, that of forcing or assisting the leading blades into undisturbed air. But Mr Irving is not given to theories: he merely states that he has a propeller that does the work, and that it is more or less inconsequential to the practical aviator just how it does the work. Considerable success has attended the use of Mr Irving's marine propeller, designed along the same general lines as his present air screw. Some years ago captain Baldwin, a well-known figure in American aviation, tested one of Irving's propellers on his "Red Devil" biplane. Crude as that propeller was, the results were most gratifying. Captain Baldwin was astonished with the climbing power and speed of his machine so equipped. Other aviators have also been impressed in the same way, after a trial of the propeller which ridicules propeller theories. US Patent # 1,022,846
Propeller

James A. Irving (April 9, 1912) My invention relates to propellers, and more particularly to aeroplane propellers. Experiments have shown that there is distortion when cutting a thread in a solid substance of great resistability. When a thread is cut in such an elastic medium as air, which has little normal resistibility, this distortion is greatly increased. This distortion is analogous to the disturbing of the air by a rotating propeller. Investigators of aerial propellers arrive at the conclusion that the less a propeller disturbs the air the greater its efficiency, and that a theoretical propeller of infinitely minute thickness and weight would travel through the air without disturbing it its exact pitch distance when rotated one revolution, if we disregard the frictional surfaces of the blades; but as it is impossible to construct such a propeller or avoid frictional surfaces, the problem must be resolves with a propeller constructed for practical work, which must necessarily have thickness, weight, area and frictional surfaces. Such a propeller will set up disturbances in the air which practically preclude its being considered as a screw, because these disturbances influence or distort the air, and it does not offer the necessary resistibility for cutting a screw thread. In constructing propellers for aeroplanes, great care must be taken to see that the design is such that the propeller will not throw the air laterally. This is so for the efficiency of a propeller is due to its ability to grip the air, form it into a cone and give to it volume, weight and velocity, the sum of these being a mechanically created cyclonic force which, projected against substantially inert air, propels the aeroplane at the necessary speed to exert elevating and sustaining power. Smoke and vapor experiments tend to prove that a propeller draws or absorbs air from the space around it. This air is condensed and takes the form of a truncated cone, with a slightly rotating movement, and is really a modified cyclone as the action and effect are almost identical. My propeller has been so designed not only to disturb the air as little as possible, but the blades are adjustable relatively to each other and to the hub, to permit of a ready adjustment of the blades with reference to the weight, the resisting surface, and the frictional surfaces of the aeroplane, and the normal speed of the engine. Additional objects of the invention will appear in the following complete specification, in which the preferred form of my invention is disclosed, In the drawings, similar characters of reference indicate corresponding parts in all the views, in which: --- Figure 1 is a rear view of my propeller;

Figure 2 is a plan view of Figure 1, partially in section;

Figure 3 is a transverse sectional view showing the two propellers mounted on one of the shanks;

Figure 4 is a view of a propeller blade with one of its side members and the manner of securing it to the shank;

Figure 5 is a side elevation showing one of the hub members;

Figure 6 is a face view showing a hub member;

Figure 7 is a plan view similar to that shown in Figure 2, but showing another adjustment of the propeller blades;

Figure 8 is a fragmentary view, showing each shank divided with one of its members disposed in an opening in the other to permit of the rotation of one blade on the shank relating to the other; and

Figure 9 is a sectional view on line 9-9 of Figure 8.





By referring to the drawings, it will be seen that a hub is provided, consisting of members 10 an 11, there being two roughened concave bearing surfaces 12 on the inner face of each of the hub members 10 and 11. As shown in Figures 5 and 6 of the drawings, I prefer to cut channels 13 in the hub and insert in these channels 13 bearing members 14, having the roughened concave bearing surfaces 12 referred to. The bearing members 14 are held in place by means of screws 27, and I prefer to have them project beyond the sides of the hub members. The bearing members 14 on one of the hub members co-act with the bearing members 14 on the other hub members, to grip the shanks 15 on which the propeller blades 16 and 17 are mounted. As will be understood by referring to the drawings, the bearing members are so disposed relatively to the axis of the hub, that the shanks 15 will be disposed at an angle to each other, and obliquely relatively to the hub axis. With this construction two of the propeller blades are normally disposed in advance of the hub, the other two propeller blades extending rearwardly of the hub. There are threaded orifices 18 in the hub members, which register with each other, and in these threaded orifices mesh screw members 19, having angular heads 20. Nuts 21 are provided for locking the screw members in place, and a face plate 22 with angular openings 23 is provided, the angular heads 20 being normally disposed in the angular openings 23, the face plate 22 being secured to the hub member 11 by means of screws 24. Two of the propeller blades are constructed by providing side members 25, which are bolted to opposite sides of the shank 15, as shown in Figures 3 and 4 of the drawings, the peripheries of these side members 25 being secured together at 26 by any preferred means. As will be seen in referring to Figures 2 and 7 of the drawings, the propeller blades 16 are considerably larger than the propeller blades 17, and these blades 16 are preferably the leading blades; that is, I prefer to have them extend in a direction in advance of the hub, the shorter blades 17 extending rearwardly of the hub. It will readily be understood that by removing the face plate 22, and unscrewing the screw members 19, the shanks 15 may be rotated as my be desired to secure the desired pitch for the propeller blades, and that the shanks 15 may also be shifted longitudinally to position the propeller blades at predetermined distances from the hub. Each of the shanks 15 is divided by marks 15a, which may be referred to in obtaining the desired adjustment. The arrangement of one forwardly extending set of propeller blades in combination with one rearwardly extending set of similar blades tends to prevent a vacuum forming around the hub of the propeller, and thereby removes undesirable suction. In Figures 8 and 9 I have shown a divided shank consisting of a tubular member 15b having longitudinal slots 15c, the shank member 15d being disposed in the tubular member 15b. When the tubular member 15b is gripped by the bearing member 14 it will press against the shank member 15d and hold the tubular member 15b relatively to the shank member 15d. With this construction the blades 17 may be disposed at any predetermined angle with relation to the blades 16. It will be understood that the smaller or inner blades 17 may be set to a much greater pitch than the larger leading blades 17 and that the diameter of the larger blades 16 may be expanded as desired. When the positions of the blades 16 are not changed relatively to the positions of the blades 17, any increase in the pitch of one set of blades will reduce the pitch of the other set of blades. The adjustability of the propeller permits of the balancing and the setting of the blades of the propeller at the desired pitch forced to produce the best results.

Last edited on Mon Mar 12th, 2018 01:50 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 05:26 pm
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Russ Huber
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https://patents.google.com/patent/USD48494S/enDescription
DESIGN.
J. A. IRVING.
FAN.
APPLICATION FILED JAN. 9, 1915.
anwwtoz aw V4 #0 7&1; W 25., A W
UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE.
JAMES A. IRVING, OF NEW YORK, N. Y.
DESIGN son A FAN.
Application filed January 9, 1915. Serial No. 1,471.
Specification for Design.
Patented Feb. 1, 1916.
Term of patent 14 years.
the other, said cross being formed by four vanes of substantially the same length, arranged in two sets having each two 0 posed vanes, the opposed vanes of one set being close to the hub of the fan, and the opposed vanes of the other set being carried at a point more remote from the hub.
I claim The ornamental design for a fan as shown and described.


JAMES A. IRVING.

Witnesses:
MARY WALLACE, AXEL V. BEEKEN.

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Last edited on Sun Mar 11th, 2018 05:28 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 05:39 pm
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Russ Huber
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Notice the Ming blade design patent from airplane propeller designer James Irving sports two witnesses. Mary Wallace was the wife of the American Eck Dynamo works CEO William Wallace. The other witness was Charles Eck's attorney of past Axel Beeken.  Keep in mind Eck left the country back to Sweden and one member of his prior agency Goldmark & Wallace took the Eck Dynamo CEO chair in 1907.


I question if the use of the ming blade starting in 17 was an American Eck Dynamo manufacturing adventure?  :wondering:


JAMES A. IRVING.

Witnesses: MARY WALLACE, AXEL V. BEEKEN.  

Last edited on Sun Mar 11th, 2018 05:44 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2018 08:08 pm
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George Durbin
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Hi All!
Up untill our buddies from Ohio Orville and Wilbur Wright invented a device to measure the lift and efficiency of a blade The government or any other company untill then know if there blade design for lift and efficient had ever been measured... Wright brothers made this measureing device from hack saw blades... A replica i believe is in Kitty Hawk... I think their original is in the Smithsonian... They for awhile refused to sell they're patent to the government... Kinda pissed the government off... 
This is off the top of my head... But just shows ya what bicycle mechanics can do!😁😁

Last edited on Sun Mar 11th, 2018 08:22 pm by George Durbin

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