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Westy 6 winger  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Sun Jul 1st, 2018 09:17 pm
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Jeff Jones
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Wondering what this is worth...it doesn't run and when we tested it appears to have a short somewhere.  Headwire looked ok so I'm not sure if it's in the speed coil or stator.  They wanted $140 so I walked but thought of making an offer maybe but not sure how much since I dont find 6 wingers very often (not at all really this is the 1st one)

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 Posted: Sun Jul 1st, 2018 09:39 pm
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David Kilnapp
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I think it's worth the $140. It shouldn't be too hard to find the short. First thing I would do is disconnect the speed coil and put the alligator clips right on the head wires to see if you can isolate the short. I'd be willing to guess it is probably something to do with the speed coil.

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 Posted: Mon Jul 2nd, 2018 02:17 am
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Lawrence Smith
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unless your well versed in headwire replacement on a stamped steel westy avoid this fan. also verify the model # is in fact a 6 blade - many instances of 4 pole motors getting 6 blades & then burning out the stator prematurely 

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 04:16 am
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Jeff Jones
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bump Any more thoughts on this one? Going back up that way this coming weekend.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 05:15 am
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Steve Stephens
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Those are impressive fans but I don't care for the zinc cage badge used on a few years.   I bought this one online (don't remember what site).  It was listed at $400 but I got the seller to send for $200 shipping included maybe 4-5 years ago.   He could not get the blade off so shipped it with the cage off and blade on.  The blade got significantly bent both out of clock and wings bent some at the hub.  I have the blade mostly fixed and, when complete, will be near perfect with no visible damage.  It took  me weeks to get the blade off, seems like it was "glued" on with old hardened oils but I finally got it off.  The fan itself has cleaned up nicely and the cage is perfect.   Just some photos to compare to the one you are looking at; again, it's the zinc badge that would stop me from getting it.   I will also be selling my fan when I get it all OK.   Just not a fan of stamped steel Westys unless they are exceptional and I have an early 1912 6 wing 12" one with bronze bearing carriers and near perfect finish that I will keep












Note OFF stamp still in very good condition.





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 Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2018 04:29 am
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Jeff Jones
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Ended up getting it today for $100. The model # checked out with Steve's so it seems it is a correct 6 wing. The issue does seem to be with the speed coil. When I did some more troubleshooting tonight I wasn't getting a direct short like we did in the shop 2 weeks ago.   I checked w/ a multi-meter across the lead terminals, speed coil, etc and didn't find evidence of a dead short. I think what happened that day was the test cord he quickly made up was no good...I think he nicked the insulation when he was splitting it, he just grabbed some speaker wire or something quick and was doing one one of those stick the wires in an extension cord deals.  

Anyhow, after checking with the meter and not finding evidence of a direct short I tested with my own test cord, variac & kill-a-watt and.......it still didn't run (bummer was hoping maybe the only issue was that test cord) but at least it didn't act like it was shorted. It did not pop the 2 amp fuse I had put in the variac, but it wasn't doing anything on low, or medium except pulling about 1 amp or so.  On high it had a faint hum and acted like it wanted to try to spin the blade, but backwards.  I tried a manual push (both directions) and no go.  It'd try to start backwards but then quit and just hum.  The kill-a-watt showed it pulling 2 amps so I didn't keep trying for very long.  Basically 1 spin int he proper direction, then one in the reverse that it seemed like it wanted to do just to see if it'd take off then I quit.  

What I did try next was pulling the headwires off and ohming them out...I got 66, 50 and 16 I think where the readings so it seemed the motor was ok? I tried putting the line cord to the common lead (which I knew b/c it was the only one not attached to the speed coil) and 1 of the wires then slowly bringing the voltage up on the variac watching the amps. On 1 combination it drew about 1 amp but didn't attempt to turn even with a manual push.  With the other wire it drew about 2 amp and did slowly spool up to full speed with a strong manual push. Have to give it a really strong spin or it'll just coast back down while humming, but with a strong enough push it like gets past that point and slowly spins up to full.  Once up to speed the amps dropped off to about 1.3 and it seemed to run fine. I didn't run it long this way b/c I know these 3 wire fans are supposed to have the speed coil wired in in order to properly start and such. But I figure since it will run with a manual start and it doesn't pull crazy amps or get hot (at least in the 5 min I left it run) I think the motor is in fact OK and the problem is in the switch or the coil.

I tried to ohm the coil out but I'm getting really low readings and they're jumping all over the place so I'm not sure if it's b/c its bad or if I'm doing it wrong.

Does anyone happen to have a speed coil that would work on this fan? Or can anyone direct me better on how to test it or what to check for? Nothing looks obviously burnt...and all wires were still attached to the switch posts and the 2 that went to the motor.

Last edited on Sun Jul 15th, 2018 04:42 am by Jeff Jones

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 Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2018 04:29 am
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Jeff Jones
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Motor tag

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 Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2018 08:35 pm
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David Kilnapp
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I wonder if the rotor has a centrifugal starter on it. Looks like this: I had a similar Westy that wouldn't start and the reason was that the little brass wings seen below were pretty dirty where they contact the hot collar (next picture) which is in the back of the case. I oiled the rivets that hold the wings so that they moved easily then used a dremel to clean the contact surface (the inside surface of the brass wings). Then I re-inserted the rotor and it fired right up.










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 Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2018 09:25 pm
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Jeff Jones
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I wish it was a centrifugal start but unfortunately I don't think it is since it's a 3 wire. Yours is nice though, is that a stamped steel and a 16 inch? I've been wanting to add some centrifugal starts to my collection. I've got 3 so far a westy "tank", a Dayton and a diehl.

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 Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2018 11:52 pm
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David Kilnapp
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I didn't know that three wire Westy's didn't have centrifugal starters. I'm quite new to this group and learning new things all the time (like just now). Yes, that's a 16 inch stamped steel Westy. Like most Westy's I work on, it's a bit noisy when it runs but it is nice and smooth on all three speeds. Seller wanted $275 but I talked him down to $150. It wasn't oscillating and only one speed worked. I guessed (correctly it seems) that the screw holding the oscillating arm to the gear had come off (it had) and someone had incorrectly wired the speed coil (they did). Once those issues were corrected, and the centrifugal starter cleaned, it worked perfectly. I'll post pictures when I get the brass cage and blade back from my brass refinisher guy.

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 Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2018 11:55 pm
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David Kilnapp
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Here it is all cleaned up and painted. Waiting for the brass cage and blade.

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 12:27 am
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Jeff Jones
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Nice. I'd wish mine was a cent start.

So I did more trouble shooting tonight and these are the results. If I leave the red wire from the motor (which I think is the start or aux winding) disconnected from the speed coil I found i can manually start and run it the same as I did last night. And I appear to get a little bit of speed variations too. But as soon as I connect that red wire it slows down almost like its acting in reverse of the main winding. That tells me its gotta be the coil right? I'm not getting the proper phase shift on that aux winding.

I tried reversing the taps and it acts mostly the same but doenst run as well.

Should I pull the coil apart and look for a short or isn't it worth the effort? Figuring I need a coil rewind for sure at this point. I just hope it isn't the aux winding thats the issue.

Wish I had another coil to test with.

There aren't supposed to be any other connections to those 2 taps other than a motor wire correct? Could someone with this fan take a pic of their switch so I can confirm it's not a wiring issue?

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 05:46 am
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Jeff Jones
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Ohmed out the windings again, here are the readings:

Green to Red: 66.6
Green to Yellow: 19.1
Yellow to Red: 47.7

Do these seem normal for this motor?

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 11:37 am
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David Kilnapp
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Hey Jeff. I have a three wire Westy coil that I'll be glad to send to you (free). Don't know if it's good or not but all the wires are there and labeled. Send me a PM with your address and I'll ship it out tomorrow.

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 04:02 pm
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Jeff Jones
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@David that'd be awesome...can you post a pic tho 1st so I see if it's got the 5 taps like mine does? Mine has 3 going to each speed then 2 coming off the coil itself. which were attached to the motor.

Just don't want to see you go to the trouble of shipping it if it isn't a match.

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 05:45 pm
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Richard Daugird
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Keep in mind that most(all?) Westinghouse fans run counterclockwise, or “backwards” compared to most other brands.

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 06:12 pm
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Jeff Jones
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@Richard Yep...when it does "try" to start it tries to spin clockwise very weakly, opposite the pitch of the blades. I think that aux winding is acting in reverse phase for some odd reason (hoping its the coil)...as if I get it running with it disconnected then connect it...I hear the fan start slowing down as if a load was put on the motor.

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 06:33 pm
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Richard Daugird
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Here's an old thread that may shed some light:

Last edited on Mon Jul 16th, 2018 06:34 pm by Richard Daugird

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 06:34 pm
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Richard Daugird
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http://www.afcaforum.com/forum1/16424.html

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 07:08 pm
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David Kilnapp
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Here you go Jeff. What do you think. Do you want me to ship it? Five wires coming off of it, two from the actual coil as seen below.


Last edited on Mon Jul 16th, 2018 07:09 pm by David Kilnapp

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 07:29 pm
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Jeff Jones
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Yep that looks exactly like mine....yes please send it out...how much do I owe for shipping?

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 07:35 pm
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David Kilnapp
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You owe me nothing Jeff. I don't know if the coil is good or not so test it. If it works out, it will be my returning the many kindnesses that have been shown to me by many members of this forum. My wife is heading to the post office now. I would imagine that you will have it by end of week if not sooner. Good luck!

Last edited on Mon Jul 16th, 2018 07:37 pm by David Kilnapp

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 07:41 pm
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Jeff Jones
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@Rich Thx for linking that thread...gives me a little hope that it's just the speed coil. I did check the leads as best as I could last night, none of them appeared loose or broken...but I suppose 1 could be broken inside where it taps the coil. Although if it were open I wouldn't expect that "slowdown" or attempt to push it in reverse when connected.

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 07:44 pm
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Jeff Jones
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@David Thank-you!! I feel like I should give you at least the shipping though....if there's anything you ever need or I can help you with let me know. I should have had you ohm that out just to compare to mine but if it's on it's way no worries. I can wait a few days.

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 07:47 pm
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Richard Daugird
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Funny co-incidence I just happened on the old thread(I started back to the earliest available page, 500-ish, some months ago and have been perusing them as well as new posts), today when I saw this one and thought it may be of use.

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 Posted: Mon Jul 16th, 2018 07:48 pm
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David Kilnapp
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I'm at work Jeff and it was just as easy to have my wife send it out rather than wait until I could do it.. If it's good, then use it. If not, then simply throw it away. The shipping cost is coffee money, not worth talking about.

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 Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2018 10:38 pm
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Jeff Jones
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So....got an update on the 6 winger saga. David's coil arrived on wed...didn't get a chance to monkey with it until last night though. I think the coils must be different between a 4 pole and 6 pole motor. I ohmed his out to compare to mine and got quite different readings between the 2 leads that go to the motor (225 ohm vs 8 ohm)..between taps to the switch were very similar though of about 9, 7 and 4 ohm.  Figured ok...mine is suspect so maybe 225 ohm is what is expected.  

Gave it a try but no dice. Fan still wouldn't start...nor would it run with a manual start like it did with my coil or no coil. I don't think that coil is bad...I think its for a 4 pole motor. It isn't quite as tall as mine, and has fewer laminates.

So...just for kicks I decided to try mine again..I had removed my coil from the switch so it'd be ready to send off if someone volunteered to rewind it. I put it back on and connected everything up with test leads and to my complete astonishment the fan started on its own and ran. As I was gently moving wires around to see if I could find anything loose as I figured it has to be a bad connection since removing and reinstalling the coil wouldn't change anything else...I saw some small sparks at one of the taps (for low speed) and the fan slowed down a bit. I shut it off and When I tried to restart it I was back to just the hum and no spin. Poked at that low speed wire tap again...got a little spark and the fan started. I figured ok, loose or broken wire easy fix. Took a closer look and one of the wires coming off the coil going to that lead was in fact broke. So I cleaned off the enamel some and soldered it...and the fan refused to start again. At this point I was like ooookkkkk... what the heck is going on here???? No amount of jiggling that wire could get it to do anything but hum now. If I removed the red wire and manually started it it ran but slowed when connecting the red wire just like I was getting before.

At this point I was stumped...so I slept on it for a day. Today I decided for giggles to cut that wire going to the low position on the switch and split the 2 pieces of magnet wire apart...thinking maybe when it WASN'T making connection is when it was starting and running, and sure enough...she fired right up and ran fine. Only got 2 speeds of course but both work and it starts promptly on either one.

So...I guess I've got a short in the low speed tap inside the speed coil? Nothing else makes sense...if the whole coil were bad it wouldn't start and run on medium & high w/ that low tap disconnected and broken. There's 2 magnet wires that come out of the coil that went to the switch tap...they were looped around the screw and nut. What I did was separate these 2 wires...that's when it runs. When they're connected or touching each other as they would normally be, the fan won't start and just hums but when they're separated it starts and runs normally (on medium and high).

So for now I just split those 2 magnet wires that come out of the coil for low and shrink wrapped them. I guess this puts me back to still needing a speed coil for a 6 pole motor. At least now I know for sure though the motor is ok. Anyone think there is any harm in running it this way w/ 2 speeds for now? Amp draw is within spec and it did not get hot...although it only ran for about 5 min. Am going to reassemble then run it longer.

David, Thanks again for sending that coil...I was hoping there was not a difference in coils for 4 and 6 pole motors but I guess there is. If you would like me to send it back I'll be more than happy to as I'm 95% sure it IS good...just doesn't work on this motor. Otherwise I'll keep it in my parts stash and should you ever need it in the future just let me know and I'll send it back to you. Or I may end up finding another fan some day that needs it.

Last edited on Sun Jul 22nd, 2018 10:40 pm by Jeff Jones

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 Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2018 10:43 pm
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David Kilnapp
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No worries. Keep it in your parts stash. If I ever need it, I'll PM you. Glad you solved your mystery!

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