AFCA Forums Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register

 Moderated by: Steve Cunningham, Rod Rogers, Larry Hancock
New Topic Reply Printer Friendly
Pancake surprise  Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Sun May 12th, 2019 05:36 am
  PMQuoteReply
1st Post
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member


Joined: Sat Feb 25th, 2006
Location: Bumi Serpong Damai, Jakarta, Indonesia
Status: 
Offline
Having started gradually unpacking fans I decided to investigate one really dirty beaten up GE pancake which was bought in my last few days in Cairo and came in my shipment of home furniture etc.
This 1904 trunnion mount (style/form AK D, serial number 202861)incredibly (for me) seemed to be all there; barring the oil drip catcher.
There was a switch complete with handle, a much battered cage, reasonable blade and a home made fibre board base.
After electrolysis and cleaning of the really cruddy cage and blade, no unpleasant surprises. The cage had some damage and needed a new 'S' wire. Very proud to say that I did my first brass wrap-around successfully. Just need to extend three outer ends of broken inserted 'S' wires to complete the repair. Blades no major wrinkles, straight and in clock from visual check.
Basking in these small successes, I removed the fibre board base expecting to find the switch with 5 positions, speed coil and normal wiring.
Oops!

On the left, a correct 1904 pancake figured by Kim Frank, on the right my 1904....what the heck! What looks like a ballast block from a large fluorescent tube light has been inserted as a speed coil.
Not being any kind of an electrical whizz, could this ballast have done anything? Judging from now frozen grease mini-stalagmites coming from the ballast suggesting the internals melted, it didn't work. The switch has thus been wired as 5 'on' positions and 1 'off'.
So my questions are, "How difficult is it to hand wind speed coils for a pancake? How difficult to find the wire of the correct resistance? Are there any AFCA threads to assist one in this?
I know Sarton sell them but the postage to Indonesia will  double the price. I doubt I will find a source here in Indonesia but maybe a re-wind shop provided I can give them the specifications.
It will be necessary to test what the windings of the fan are now. I suspect they have been rewound for 220 volts from the original 100volt 40 cycles as on the motor tag.
Any advice as to wire resistance rating, number of windings per voltage etc. will be very much appreciated.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun May 12th, 2019 09:04 am
  PMQuoteReply
2nd Post
David Allen
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Mon Mar 6th, 2017
Location: Northport, Alabama, USA
Status: 
Offline
Pete Moulds wrote: Having started gradually unpacking fans I decided to investigate one really dirty beaten up GE pancake which was bought in my last few days in Cairo and came in my shipment of home furniture etc.

This 1904 trunnion mount (style/form AK D, serial number 202861)incredibly (for me) seemed to be all there; barring the oil drip catcher.

There was a switch complete with handle, a much battered cage, reasonable blade and a home made fibre board base.

After electrolysis and cleaning of the really cruddy cage and blade, no unpleasant surprises. The cage had some damage and needed a new 'S' wire. Very proud to say that I did my first brass wrap-around successfully. Just need to extend three outer ends of broken inserted 'S' wires to complete the repair. Blades no major wrinkles, straight and in clock from visual check.

Basking in these small successes, I removed the fibre board base expecting to find the switch with 5 positions, speed coil and normal wiring.

Oops!



On the left, a correct 1904 pancake figured by Kim Frank, on the right my 1904....what the heck! What looks like a ballast block from a large fluorescent tube light has been inserted as a speed coil.

Not being any kind of an electrical whizz, could this ballast have done anything? Judging from now frozen grease mini-stalagmites coming from the ballast suggesting the internals melted, it didn't work. The switch has thus been wired as 5 'on' positions and 1 'off'.

So my questions are, "How difficult is it to hand wind speed coils for a pancake? How difficult to find the wire of the correct resistance? Are there any AFCA threads to assist one in this?

I know Sarton sell them but the postage to Indonesia will  double the price. I doubt I will find a source here in Indonesia but maybe a re-wind shop provided I can give them the specifications.

It will be necessary to test what the windings of the fan are now. I suspect they have been rewound for 220 volts from the original 100volt 40 cycles as on the motor tag.

Any advice as to wire resistance rating, number of windings per voltage etc. will be very much appreciated.



Hi Pete.  That's wild about the ballast being added to the fan in that manner!

Also interesting about the 40 cycle motor rating.  The ballast could have been an attempt to add inductive reactance to the circuit, so that the motor could be used on 50 cycle 220V power. It could be that the motor required it in the circuit at all times and therefore it was no longer a multi-speed configuration.

Thanks for showing that - love finding the old repairs and modifications like this!

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun May 12th, 2019 07:36 pm
  PMQuoteReply
3rd Post
Jim Kovar
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Feb 21st, 2011
Location:  Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Status: 
Offline

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Mon May 13th, 2019 05:56 am
  PMQuoteReply
4th Post
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member


Joined: Sat Feb 25th, 2006
Location: Bumi Serpong Damai, Jakarta, Indonesia
Status: 
Offline
Indeed Jim.
A dooooohhhh...........nuts moment!

On a serious note can anyone give any information as requested?

Has any AFCA member successfully wound a pancake 'doughnut' and knows some of the basic parameters such a wire resistance, wire gauge etc.? Maybe I can find a local rewind shop which can set up a production line?

So, any re-winders out there who can help to retain the integrity of restorations of badly abused pancakes?
Many thanks if you can.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon May 13th, 2019 08:28 pm
  PMQuoteReply
5th Post
Chad Hunter
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Thu Oct 13th, 2011
Location: Birmingham, AL.
Status: 
Offline
I’m sure if anybody knows the specs it would be Kim. There is a company here in the US that everyone buys from called Sartron they are perfect & also comes with a wiring diagram, they have saved a few dozen of my cakes over the years.

Attached Image (viewed 244 times):

E1BDD11B-42C8-4064-9D82-9C9CCBAE3E06.jpeg

Last edited on Mon May 13th, 2019 08:30 pm by Chad Hunter

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Mon May 13th, 2019 08:29 pm
  PMQuoteReply
6th Post
Chad Hunter
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Thu Oct 13th, 2011
Location: Birmingham, AL.
Status: 
Offline
Coil

Attached Image (viewed 241 times):

B86A8C6F-4B36-4531-8645-68BBAEE4E1B9.jpeg

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon May 13th, 2019 08:29 pm
  PMQuoteReply
7th Post
Chad Hunter
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Thu Oct 13th, 2011
Location: Birmingham, AL.
Status: 
Offline
Wiring diagram

Attached Image (viewed 240 times):

50F9DB7C-4F4A-4B82-B1B5-8B930AAFDBAE.jpeg

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Tue May 14th, 2019 09:23 am
  PMQuoteReply
8th Post
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member


Joined: Sat Feb 25th, 2006
Location: Bumi Serpong Damai, Jakarta, Indonesia
Status: 
Offline
So my questions are, "How difficult is it to hand wind speed coils for a pancake? How difficult to find the wire of the correct resistance? Are there any AFCA threads to assist one in this? I know Sarton sell them but the postage to Indonesia will double the price. I doubt I will find a source here in Indonesia but maybe a re-wind shop provided I can give them the specifications.
Chad.
Thanks for the info, especially the wiring diagram.
My problems are, "Location, location, location."
Having saved a number of GE pancakes, I now need to restore a number of them in order to sell them. There isn't much point in me having 4 virtually identical 1900 candlestick pancakes for example.
I can no longer find pancake fans for spare parts in flea markets because I have moved location away from the source in Egypt. Anyway they were not common there.
Because Egypt changed  the voltage of their electrical supply from 100 volts to 220, they could fairly easily upgrade the motors by rewiring the field coils but rarely did they upgrade the speed coils and never restored them. Thus the majority of the pancakes I have lack speed coils plus many lack switches also.
Sartron is excellent but rather expensive because of the added shipping cost and each time I import one I will have a problem with Indonesian customs just to increase the expense and the pain.
My location also means that selling a pancake to a collector in the US for example will add US$200+ in shipping costs which may make them non-competitive.
Thus I am looking at a smaller market locally here in Indonesia and one where a normal restored pancake price of US$600-700 is going to be a serious deterrent to someone here who just wants an attractive antique as a feature in his/her house.
This is why I was looking for detailed data on the speed coil wire resistance, gauge and number of windings etc. The idea to find a local re-winder who can be tempted to try and recreate one here. Lower cost, quicker turn around, no fight with customs etc.
Kim, can you help? We can do a deal on pancake fan parts. :wondering:

Last edited on Tue May 14th, 2019 09:26 am by Pete Moulds

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue May 14th, 2019 12:41 pm
  PMQuoteReply
9th Post
Rick Huckabee
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Jun 9th, 2008
Location: Lufkin, Texas USA
Status: 
Offline
I have wound only 1 Pancake choke coil . Very difficult because of the donut shape as the windings have to wrap inside and out, all around the circumference of the laminates. Very time consuming . I cannot wind them for anywhere near what Sartron charges . That is a very good price. Kim can give you the Ohms readings between the speeds I do not know them. Good Luck.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Tue May 14th, 2019 02:26 pm
  PMQuoteReply
10th Post
Kim Frank
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Nov 15th, 2005
Location: Whitestown, USA
Status: 
Offline
Hey Pete. I rewound a donut several years ago. The amount of time that it took to do it was a couple of hours and the time it took my eyes to uncross was double that. Sartron charges $75 US for a 12 inch coil and it is definitely worth it. But I understand they would be expensive where you are. The readings for a 100/115 volt torroidal coil are 1.9 ohms high to med high, 1.0 ohm medium high to medium, .9 ohm medium to medium low, and .5 ohm medium low to low.  The donut is made up of steel laminations wrapped in cardboard. Hope that is of some help.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue May 14th, 2019 03:33 pm
  PMQuoteReply
11th Post
Pete Moulds
AFCA Member


Joined: Sat Feb 25th, 2006
Location: Bumi Serpong Damai, Jakarta, Indonesia
Status: 
Offline
Rick and Kim

Many thanks for that. Food for thought.
I do, I really do, realise Sartron's pricing is reasonable considering the work involved. It is just that transport to here will double the price and THEN there is the fight with Indonesia's customs.
It could easily end up costing $250 for a coil. $75 for the coil, $75 for transport and $100 for the customs battle and add-on charges.
When I believe it will be hard work to sell a pancake here for US$500, the costs become significant.

It means, in effect,  a pancake without speed coil or switch is dead in the water. Even though motor, cage, blade, oiler, brass bright work and most other stuff is there.
Even selling major parts to collectors in the US will be difficult because of postage costs.

Clearly, I will have to put my thinking cap on.

With the post candlestick pancake fans, the speed coil is hidden in the base and not visible unless you remove the base plate. Most proud owners who are not specialist collectors will never open the fan.
I hesistate to ask this but is there a modern electrical/electronic solution to replace a speed coil I wonder? This would by-pass the difficulty I have.
I know for a purist collector that is a cardinal sin but maybe, just maybe, the lesser of two evils, the alternative is losing the pancake fan from survival long term. It never to run again.

Anonymously, if necessary, has anyone  a suggestion as an alternative solution?

Last edited on Tue May 14th, 2019 03:34 pm by Pete Moulds

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Wed May 15th, 2019 09:39 am
  PMQuoteReply
12th Post
Rick Huckabee
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Jun 9th, 2008
Location: Lufkin, Texas USA
Status: 
Offline
The only other option I can see is that either you , or somebody there that will dissect an old one and rewind it.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

Current time is 11:25 am  
AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Pre-1950 (Antique) > Pancake surprise Top



Beige Theme By: Di @ UltraBB
UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.1703 seconds (16% database + 84% PHP). 27 queries executed.