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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 10:27 am
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Kevin Williams
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I am new to antique fans but always wanted a nice Westy as I was a Nikola Tesla fan first.

So I bought this on eBay a week ago from a buyer in New Jersey and received it yesterday morning.
I got it for one-hundred-and-fifty Canadian Rubles to my door unharmed and un-molested by the Ace Venturas along its way here to Canuckland.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/264841678550?euid=null&bu=44893599531&crd=20201007131750&osub=-1~1&ch=osgood&cp=1&sojTags=bu=bu,ch=ch,segname=segname,crd=crd,url=loc,osub=osub

It was listed as not being tested. The label was gunked over with a layer of decomposed non-factory black paint.
In the photo the original (?) rotten cloth covered cord was wrapped round its neck. When it got to me I unwrapped the cord and crack crack crack it fell apart. It was likely wrapped like that for decades. It was bought by a lady from an estate sale who sold it to me.

For test purposes I dripped some blue label 3in1 oil into the forward bearing, opened the base, slapped on a grounded cable, than plugged it in to the mains in series with a 100w bulb. The bulb glowed dim yellow orange but the motor turned fairly slow and emitted a rough 60hz buzz sound.

The paint is so rotten over the brass label I just scrubbed it with a dry tooth brush and it exposed the preserved info underneath. I looked up the two patent numbers seeking information/clues.

The first one was for a centrifugal starting mechanism
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/7b/b0/ca/8a0fa1367b6228/US1305094.pdf
The second was a patent for the process for forming Micarda fan blades.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/23/c7/c5/7617a7d1c1ab19/US1444923.pdf

On the label it says: Volts 100/120 60cycles Serial: FE 803008-A

and down in the lower right hand corner

(4849)
(8-1-33)

Inside is a speed controller with weird wire running all around. Is this a naked nichrome resistor or magnet wire making it a multi-tapped choke coil?

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 10:37 am
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Kevin Williams
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It is my intention to replace the crap wiring with new cotton covered stuff from "Vintage Wire And Supply"
plus new grommits and use the original plug "end".

But what is that janky BUZZZ sound? When I engage the oscillating doohickey the fan stops its lumbering spin and slows to a stop.

That speed control gives me the creeps. Can I just leave it in place, disable it, and wire up the multi step switch to various value 250v capacitors in series with the motor to switch speed safer?

The Paint, I know the reason it si black is because it is like the Ford Model T, black paint dries faster on an assembly line. The original factory black has allready been sneezed over with more black glunk years later but decades ago. What would be wrong with polishing the brass hardware to a shine, stripping the rest, and painting it a nice deep blue? The grill is utilitarian style (non S shape) rod steel, how expensive would it be to have it professionally chrome plated? Your thoughts, ideas, feelings?

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 10:55 am
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Mark Olson
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Are you still running the fan in series with the light bulb? If so, the buzzing is probably the fan start windings laboring to get the motor up to speed so the centrifugal switch can drop out. As far as the speed control, pictures are needed. I do not know for sure, but I don't believe that nichrome resistance wire would be used on an A/C only fan. Use capacitors to slow the fan? Probably a bad idea.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 11:05 am
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Alex Rushing
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Hi Kevin,
Near Westy there! Those run very well after a restoration. But, removing the stator is going to be tricky. You can google "removing stamped Westinghouse stator", and you'll find a few methods linked back here.
The buzzing is like the motor windings or speed choke. You can saturate the windings with EL600 electrical varnish and let it dry. This will stop the winding wire from vibrating(the buzz). That is a shaded pole motor, so indeed it can be directly wired to 120VAC/60Hz. Not sure how the frequency difference is affecting it though with your homemade step down voltage lightbulb device.

Strange one patent list is for a centrifugal motor? Westinghouse phased those out in the late teens(around 1919 for 12" I know with the G version of the 4 blade 164848G).
Those were phase shift and can't be directly wired, as they require a shifted phase of the winding sets, via different switch coil taps, to start/run right.

Your fan needs to be completely disassembled and all Oscillator/running parts cleaned and new grease and oil put in to run properly. The EL600 is something that can be done with the stator in the motor case if need be, as it is designed to soak into the wrapped windings and dry - solidifying the wires.

Below is a larger version of your 10" Westy with  similar Oscillator and motor construction. Though yours won't have an access plate to tap in new wires unfortunately.
It does show the oil system, oscillator system, and how to service them.

Westinghouse Antique Fan Fire Truck Theme Oscillator 12" 516860A 1920s Modified Restoration Brass Blades

I have an 8" version of your fan awaiting restoration, and its motor buzzes on startup, but stops shortly after. It has been restored yet.

Those motors are extremely sensitive to reassembly, as the bearings don't float. You may have to attempt reassembly several times for it to spin freely.

Hope something here was useful, and just let us know if you have anymore questions!

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 11:07 am
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Kevin Williams
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OK I quickly ran it without the bulb, same angry buzzing.
Before I blow the fan and myself to helll, its time to stop and take a breath and listen to your words of wisdom.

Last edited on Sat Oct 10th, 2020 05:20 pm by Kevin Williams

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 11:14 am
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Kevin Williams
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I heard motor rewinding shops, when they put a motor back together they smack it with a rubber mallet to make everything align than tighten the nuts down.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 01:52 pm
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Kevin Williams
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OK at this point I got the old girl totally taken apart.
I am trying to get the stater OUT. WOW when I read that
it is hard to get a pressed in stater out, they wern't kidding. I propped the case between two pieces of 2x4 and inserted a flat screw driver into the holes and banging on it in a star pattern from hole to hole with my hammer.
It is not really moving. I am chipping up the metal laminations. I tried heating the outside with my heat gun.
I am close to dispear. I think I am in over my head. But I am past the point of no return. I know i I can get it out, I can clean up the damage I did to the poor metal surface with a wire brush and whatnot. I am getting scared.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 01:54 pm
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Thomas Peters
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Others have described "buzzing" stators or speed coils being cured by a thorough soaking with insulating varnish.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 02:54 pm
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Kevin Williams
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It's out. I tried a different approach and I won!
All is well. The damage I did was ten times less than I thought.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 03:31 pm
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Kevin Williams
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OK now that the stater is OUT of its rabbit hole,
I can see some things:

there are four field coils

there is NO starting centrifugal mechanism, so whats with the patent?

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 03:32 pm
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Kevin Williams
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How is this a shaded pole motor?? I just don't see it.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 04:35 pm
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Noah Britt
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What approach did you take to successfully remove your stator?

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 04:50 pm
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Alex Rushing
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Kevin Williams wrote: How is this a shaded pole motor?? I just don't see it.You have two types of shaded pole motors. One uses pieces of metal to shade the pole for  rotation. Another type, Westinghouse used, is to wind in a way the wiring acts as shading sort of. There are two ways(seen in fans anyway) to start a motor with two lines and no armature brushes. Split phase(Centrifugal for one),and shade pole.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 05:20 pm
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Kevin Williams
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Noah Britt, Oh boy..... well it wasn't pretty considering I don't have a nice vice like the guy in the video.
I suspended the shell between two microwave oven transformers and took a long thin bolt and rested it on the stater through the fan case's bolt holes. I tilted the bolt a little to the side so it didn't slide through but just to the side than smacked it with a hammer, than went to the opposite side 180o away from it and did it again. Rince repeat until the guts fell out.

Last edited on Thu Oct 8th, 2020 05:21 pm by Kevin Williams

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 05:22 pm
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Kevin Williams
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Alex Rushing wrote: Kevin Williams wrote: How is this a shaded pole motor?? I just don't see it.You have two types of shaded pole motors. One uses pieces of metal to shade the pole for  rotation. Another type, Westinghouse used, is to wind in a way the wiring acts as shading sort of. There are two ways(seen in fans anyway) to start a motor with two lines and no armature brushes. Split phase(Centrifugal for one),and shade pole.
I see now, there are what look like bands of copper across the laminations. Or so it looks like to me.
Thank you for explaining the technology.

Last edited on Thu Oct 8th, 2020 05:24 pm by Kevin Williams

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 05:27 pm
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Kevin Williams
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I am wondering that when I willy nilly added a grounded cord to this beast, without understanding how the speed control works, I think I created some kind of a short.
I WAS running it through a ballast so there were no fireworks.
BUT when I bypassed it and ran it off my UPS, it bitched and beeped and I noticed that the fan DID get faster AND the cord started to get HOT. Thus I terminated this tom foolery test.

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 05:30 pm
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Kevin Williams
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I took a look at the speed controller. to me it looks like very very fine wire. almost like it is insulated with black paint. If it is magnet wire of some kind, than I assume it is using the steel as a reactance core?

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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 06:20 pm
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Alex Rushing
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Kevin Williams wrote: I took a look at the speed controller. to me it looks like very very fine wire. almost like it is insulated with black paint. If it is magnet wire of some kind, than I assume it is using the steel as a reactance core?
I am not familiar with the 1930s Westy fans, but if it is like the late teens and 20s models, it'll have steel plate laminated core.
It is a small resistance winding called a choke coil. All it does is lower the supplied power by adding distance and ohms to the power to the motor. Like a three speed has a main tap(high with motor connected on a shaded pole for instance), second tap is 1/2 the length of the magnet wire for medium, and low being the end of the coil. Probably 26-32AWG insulated wire. Electrical varnish was used for insulation.
Then the coil wrapped in friction tape and varnished.

Fans do not seem to like UPSs. I've never gotten a fan to run well on one, and they make a strange noise. May be from the magnetic field and the way inverters work from AC to DC.

A grounded wire shouldn't cause a short unless the electrical is in contact with the motor case/base. Some have a ghost voltage from the motor, but those only shut off a ground fault outlet. Another scenario is the ground is placed wrongly and inadvertently connected to a line tap.

Last edited on Thu Oct 8th, 2020 06:21 pm by Alex Rushing

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 Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2020 09:58 am
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Kevin Williams
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Alex Rushing wrote:
Fans do not seem to like UPSs. I've never gotten a fan to run well on one, and they make a strange noise. May be from the magnetic field and the way inverters work from AC to DC.


Well it all depends on what kind of UPS. Crudely speaking a UPS is basically an inverter with a charger plus a battery to run it all. Yeah there is a LOT more to it, but whatever. The output of the inverter could be a modified sine wave, which is marketing talk for a square wave with a slight pause between half cycles. That is on the el-cheapo UPS's. Now that would make an AC motor make a funny buzz sound, run it slightly slower, and make it run warmer.

Not to honk my own horn, my UPS's are the "Smart (A$$)" black flavor of APC's UPS line in that they are the more expensive ones that put out a filtered cleaned up pure sine-wave. An AC motor would love that kind of juice.
I read about my first UPS, a 400W unit, that a guy did a review and comparison on (with other units) hooked it to a scope (no load and fully loaded down) and the sine wave quality, voltage, and frequency stability was better than the utility mains!

Last edited on Fri Oct 9th, 2020 09:59 am by Kevin Williams

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 Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2020 10:06 am
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Kevin Williams
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Some years back I got obsessed with inverter technology.
I wrote a story detailing all that for this forum but I shelved it realizing nobody would give a hoot.
The inverter I gave to my mum as a present fried up the first time we plugged it in. So I spent months designing my own inverter, jam packed with unique features, some that was on the early vibrator inverters and phased out later (features I thought were still valuable), some features on only the very new stuff today, and some features of my own idea. I drew hundreds of schematics on notebook paper, simulated the functioning in my mind, tested sub assemblies on my kitchen table, added this, improved that.....
It's a long story. I don't think anybody would want to hear it all.

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 Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2020 01:55 pm
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Alex Rushing
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Good info!
It would appear I know very little about electrical stuff, relative to your understanding.

Best luck with getting your Westinghouse fan going! My favorites are the Tanks(1905-1912) and drawn steel motors (similar to yours). :)












Last edited on Fri Oct 9th, 2020 01:56 pm by Alex Rushing

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 Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2020 02:19 pm
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Kevin Williams
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Alex Rushing wrote: Good info!
It would appear I know very little about electrical stuff, relative to your understanding.

Best luck with getting your Westinghouse fan going! My favorites are the Tanks(1905-1912) and drawn steel motors (similar to yours). :)



Quite frankly, from day one I wanted a tank model. Specifically one from 1899 with Tesla's name on the label.
The foul mouthed hot headed Tesla researcher William Lyne over in Lamy New Mexico chatted with me
and told me about how back in college, in the 1960's he owned an 1899 model with Tesla's name on it.
It had a burned out winding so he unwound it, noted the turns on a piece of paper and rewound it with modern stuff. He said it worked great but later sold it. In the fairly recent times he regretted it because they are collectors items.

Considering how expensive the ones I saw being sold are, I had to settle for the one I have or have nothing at all.

Thank you for the compliment, but I am still learning. I grasp some things, but my enthusiasm for electronical stuff is what drives me. I don't consider myself to be any kind of brain, but I certainly do try and I almost never give up.

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 Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2020 02:36 pm
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Kevin Williams
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Mark Olson wrote: Are you still running the fan in series with the light bulb? If so, the buzzing is probably the fan start windings laboring to get the motor up to speed so the centrifugal switch can drop out. As far as the speed control, pictures are needed. I do not know for sure, but I don't believe that nichrome resistance wire would be used on an A/C only fan. Use capacitors to slow the fan? Probably a bad idea.
Lemme take a hi-res picture. Stand-by.

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 Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2020 02:52 pm
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Kevin Williams
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This is the point that I am at. I hope you like it. Sorry for the quality of the shots, it's me; I am not a photographer.

https://ibb.co/kHR0RY6
https://ibb.co/VTFkHC8
https://ibb.co/rGg9G8T
https://ibb.co/mcz4x7H
https://ibb.co/31MSf1b
https://ibb.co/1dLJkzr
https://ibb.co/3cBsb3d
https://ibb.co/dK5P5YT

The last picture is of the new can of paint I want to use. I think the shade of blue has an appealing look to it.

Today is a sunny day and I fear where I am it is going to get cold and stay cold for a long time. I want to paint today or tomorrow after more scouring with my stainless steel brush. What would be wrong with using standard wire right now instead of the fancy reproduction stuff later when its turns cold too late to paint outside?

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 Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2020 03:35 pm
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Alex Rushing
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Kevin Williams wrote: Alex Rushing wrote: Good info!
It would appear I know very little about electrical stuff, relative to your understanding.

Best luck with getting your Westinghouse fan going! My favorites are the Tanks(1905-1912) and drawn steel motors (similar to yours). :)



Quite frankly, from day one I wanted a tank model. Specifically one from 1899 with Tesla's name on the label.
The foul mouthed hot headed Tesla researcher William Lyne over in Lamy New Mexico chatted with me
and told me about how back in college, in the 1960's he owned an 1899 model with Tesla's name on it.
It had a burned out winding so he unwound it, noted the turns on a piece of paper and rewound it with modern stuff. He said it worked great but later sold it. In the fairly recent times he regretted it because they are collectors items.

Considering how expensive the ones I saw being sold are, I had to settle for the one I have or have nothing at all.

Thank you for the compliment, but I am still learning. I grasp some things, but my enthusiasm for electronical stuff is what drives me. I don't consider myself to be any kind of brain, but I certainly do try and I almost never give up.

The Tesla marked fans are the Tesla style with ten pole(I believe, but am not sure), motors. The Tank replaced the Pancakes, and the pancakes replaced the Tesla(though I'm not Westinghouse expert by any means). The Tesla Westy fans aren't all thay attractive, but have some interesting things about them, particularly the Tesla patent. What gets me is I have yet to see one where the rear oil wasn't diagonal to some small degree or another.
WestinghouseTesla fans are definitely ultra expensive, particularly if they are complete and running!Much like you, I find the Tesla patent Westy fans desirable. But, all Westinghouse motors were very well made, and are extremely efficient for their motor class. Even their shade pole stuff uses less amperage/wattage than their competition at the time.


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 Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2020 05:07 pm
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Kevin Williams
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I busted my acorns since those pictures with two SS wire brushes and scouring pad. I wet washed the micarda blades with some Shackley abrasive oven cleaner and a scouring pad.
The black scum came off the blades and boy do they clean up nice. As I cleaned layers of $hit I got down to some white spay paint over spray from decades ago! I'm going to leave these black and just polish them with some oil polish.
While the rest will be blue.

People....this blue paint is OK right?
https://ibb.co/dK5P5YT

I am 100% open to suggestions

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 Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2020 06:54 pm
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Kevin Williams
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I took the speed controller apart. From what I can see and understand, it is resistive wire wrapped around the disk ceramic form in the middle with a three pole switch.

I am disappointed with the boys at Westinghouse, big time.
A RESISTIVE speed controller.....I would have thought they would have had a nice multitap magnetic choke or something.

And looking closer the winds is pretty sloppy with overlapping wire.

For the sake of safety, I wonder how hard it would be to just disconnect the resistive wire from the switching mechanism, leave the original stuff inplace (but disabled)and stick in a ceramic resistor on each switch contact, and stand the bouquet up into the neck of the base.

The  power this thing consumes is only what... 62.5watts......at the modern day voltage of 125v?

Last edited on Fri Oct 9th, 2020 06:57 pm by Kevin Williams

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 Posted: Fri Oct 9th, 2020 08:12 pm
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Alex Rushing
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By the Great Depression, the fans got less and less refined. Though, early examples have resistance chokes that aren't really neat, because they covered them with friction tape.
As far as resistors are concerned, I'm not sure anyone has had any luck using them, because of the heat build up in the base.

The blue you picked should be fine and will look sharp with the black Micarta!

Personally(if I felt the same way you do), I would rewrap the choke in new friction tape, check the resistances, and varnish it after the laminations are put back in place. These chokes usually still operate, because they are so simple. Usually, if it already works, a good dousing and soaking of EL600 clear electrical varnish is sufficient.

62.5W sound right for that motor. What would blow your mind is their early 6 pole motors for the drawn steel motors. My 6 wing(deep pitch) 164864B split phase (centrifugal start) draws 41W on high, and down under 30W on low. Their phase shift motors(3 line head) are also very low energy users. The 164848G draws less than 50W on high with brass 4-wing blade. Though, your Micarta blades have double the pitch, so they'll need more energy, even though they're lighter.

I love the modern misconception around antique fans. People think they drew hundreds of watts. Only the GE shaded pole(1890s-1907/8) pancakes draw that type of power, regarding relatively common fans(though cakes are hard to find already in decent shape).
The 1908 Tank I posted draws 52W on high and 44W on low. It uses a small resistance choke coil like yours as well, but only operates the slow speed on the 2 speed(more common than 3 speed) versions.
As far as efficiency is concerned, nothing can touch the split phase centrifugal start motors, since the phased start windings are completely cut off once at speed. Phase shaft Westinghouse fans supply power to the start and run windings, and the phase shift is controlled by a very complex(relatively) choke coil system with 5 taps(3 to the speed control and two - one to each set of windings).

Really cool stuff!

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 07:33 am
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Kevin Williams
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I have this 60's vintage box fan, that I bought in my hometown Napanee for $10. It was that sickly baby blue/turquoise that everything seemed to be coated in in the 60's.
It has a nice big motor, seems like th siz of a dang cantalope. Everything was rusty and the cord was shot.

At first just as a resurection, I cleaned the worst of the grime off, but none of the rust. I took the motor apart, cleaned it and oiled it. Slapped on a new power cable.
It rattled atr high speed, than I tightened the hex screw on the blade shaft.

6 months ago I lovingly took it apart, sanded and scrapd all the grime and rust and crust off everything. Cleaned up the chrome grills. Masked off the appropriate areas, and put four coats of the same blue spray paint.

What a peach it turned out to look like! Should I post up pictures of it elsewhere here?

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 07:45 am
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Kevin Williams
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Alex Rushing wrote: By the Great Depression, the fans got less and less refined. Though, early examples have resistance chokes that aren't really neat, because they covered them with friction tape.
As far as resistors are concerned, I'm not sure anyone has had any luck using them, because of the heat build up in the base.

The blue you picked should be fine and will look sharp with the black Micarta!

Personally(if I felt the same way you do), I would rewrap the choke in new friction tape, check the resistances, and varnish it after the laminations are put back in place. These chokes usually still operate, because they are so simple. Usually, if it already works, a good dousing and soaking of EL600 clear electrical varnish is sufficient.

62.5W sound right for that motor. What would blow your mind is their early 6 pole motors for the drawn steel motors. My 6 wing(deep pitch) 164864B split phase (centrifugal start) draws 41W on high, and down under 30W on low. Their phase shift motors(3 line head) are also very low energy users. The 164848G draws less than 50W on high with brass 4-wing blade. Though, your Micarta blades have double the pitch, so they'll need more energy, even though they're lighter.

I love the modern misconception around antique fans. People think they drew hundreds of watts. Only the GE shaded pole(1890s-1907/8) pancakes draw that type of power, regarding relatively common fans(though cakes are hard to find already in decent shape).
The 1908 Tank I posted draws 52W on high and 44W on low. It uses a small resistance choke coil like yours as well, but only operates the slow speed on the 2 speed(more common than 3 speed) versions.
As far as efficiency is concerned, nothing can touch the split phase centrifugal start motors, since the phased start windings are completely cut off once at speed. Phase shaft Westinghouse fans supply power to the start and run windings, and the phase shift is controlled by a very complex(relatively) choke coil system with 5 taps(3 to the speed control and two - one to each set of windings).

Really cool stuff!


im going to leave the Micarda blades the way they are. Im not going to paint them. I thought about glazing them with some kind of clear coat, but I don't think so.

I will follow your advice with the choke coil.

People DON'T know now a days, lots of people especially of my own Gen-X generation....have developed an arrogant attitude that newer is better and assume older is worse. But I am not surprised in the least about those old split-phase motors being that good.

I have a pair of General Electric 110v Watt hour meters from 1910. They are rated for something silly like ten amps at 110v AC. Wow! A whole house with a peak draw of 1,1KW. That is enough for some Edison bulbs for light, a sewing machine motor, a radio?



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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 10:51 am
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Kevin Williams
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For saturating the stater coils and the speed controller windings, wold this stuff I have work?

https://ibb.co/9TXXDgv


About the rewiring and repainting. What im gonna do is use normal modern wire to solder onto the stater coil and extend it out. Order some of the fancy cotton covered headwire and cord, and wire nut it on the inside so all anybody can see is the fancy stuff.

But for future me or future people after me, to save me or them the agony of having to extract the stater again, I will leave enough slack so that if it needs attention new wire can be tacked onto the new stuff I put.

Can anybody see what im driving a here?

Last edited on Sat Oct 10th, 2020 06:42 am by Kevin Williams

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 01:39 pm
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Alex Rushing
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Kevin Williams wrote: I have this 60's vintage box fan, that I bought in my hometown Napanee for $10. It was that sickly baby blue/turquoise that everything seemed to be coated in in the 60's.
It has a nice big motor, seems like th siz of a dang cantalope. Everything was rusty and the cord was shot.

At first just as a resurection, I cleaned the worst of the grime off, but none of the rust. I took the motor apart, cleaned it and oiled it. Slapped on a new power cable.
It rattled atr high speed, than I tightened the hex screw on the blade shaft.

6 months ago I lovingly took it apart, sanded and scrapd all the grime and rust and crust off everything. Cleaned up the chrome grills. Masked off the appropriate areas, and put four coats of the same blue spray paint.

What a peach it turned out to look like! Should I post up pictures of it elsewhere here?
Please do post pics, and they'll be seen more in a new topic post!

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 01:46 pm
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Alex Rushing
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Kevin Williams wrote: Alex Rushing wrote: By the Great Depression, the fans got less and less refined. Though, early examples have resistance chokes that aren't really neat, because they covered them with friction tape.
As far as resistors are concerned, I'm not sure anyone has had any luck using them, because of the heat build up in the base.

The blue you picked should be fine and will look sharp with the black Micarta!

Personally(if I felt the same way you do), I would rewrap the choke in new friction tape, check the resistances, and varnish it after the laminations are put back in place. These chokes usually still operate, because they are so simple. Usually, if it already works, a good dousing and soaking of EL600 clear electrical varnish is sufficient.

62.5W sound right for that motor. What would blow your mind is their early 6 pole motors for the drawn steel motors. My 6 wing(deep pitch) 164864B split phase (centrifugal start) draws 41W on high, and down under 30W on low. Their phase shift motors(3 line head) are also very low energy users. The 164848G draws less than 50W on high with brass 4-wing blade. Though, your Micarta blades have double the pitch, so they'll need more energy, even though they're lighter.

I love the modern misconception around antique fans. People think they drew hundreds of watts. Only the GE shaded pole(1890s-1907/8) pancakes draw that type of power, regarding relatively common fans(though cakes are hard to find already in decent shape).
The 1908 Tank I posted draws 52W on high and 44W on low. It uses a small resistance choke coil like yours as well, but only operates the slow speed on the 2 speed(more common than 3 speed) versions.
As far as efficiency is concerned, nothing can touch the split phase centrifugal start motors, since the phased start windings are completely cut off once at speed. Phase shaft Westinghouse fans supply power to the start and run windings, and the phase shift is controlled by a very complex(relatively) choke coil system with 5 taps(3 to the speed control and two - one to each set of windings).

Really cool stuff!


im going to leave the Micarda blades the way they are. Im not going to paint them. I thought about glazing them with some kind of clear coat, but I don't think so.

I will follow your advice with the choke coil.

People DON'T know now a days, lots of people especially of my own Gen-X generation....have developed an arrogant attitude that newer is better and assume older is worse. But I am not surprised in the least about those old split-phase motors being that good.

I have a pair of General Electric 110v Watt hour meters from 1910. They are rated for something silly like ten amps at 110v AC. Wow! A whole house with a peak draw of 1,1KW. That is enough for some Edison bulbs for light, a sewing machine motor, a radio?




You're very right, and even my generation feels the same way(30-40yo, me being 34).

I feel as though the arrogance is fading a bit, as my generation ardently felt as if wood-sticker covered TVs, game consoles, and wireless/cell phones negated all technology before. People(16-26yo) seem to like having a few antiques or vintage(retro) things. The average age of people buying antique typewriters, phones, and cameras at my father's antique/second hand store is 19yo(or there abouts). Hopefully the trend is moving towards an appreciation for antiques. I don't know anyone(locally anyway) who likes the stuff I do, except for one or two who nay dabble in it once in a while. Seems I'm the obsessed one. Haha

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 01:56 pm
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Alex Rushing
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Kevin Williams wrote: For saturating the stater coils and the speed controller windings, wold this stuff I have work?

https://ibb.co/9TXXDgv


About the rewiring and repainting. What im gonna do is use normal modern wire to solder onto the stater coil and extend it out. Order some of the fancy cotton covered headwire and cord, and wire nut it on the inside so all anybody can see is the fancy stuff.

But for future me or future people after me, to save me or them the agony of having to extract the stater again, I will leave enough slack so that if it needs attention new wire can be tacked onto the new stuff I put.

Can anybody see what im driving a here?

Last edited on Sat Oct 10th, 2020 06:42 am by Kevin Williams

I am a big fan of "tailing" wires. Stator taps are so brittle, that once I solder to them, I lock the connections into place. So down the road, someone will only need to solder to my leads once the headwire is clipped off.
On the switch, I like soldering short wires to the contacts, and then soldering the headwire to those and using friction tape to insulate (likethey did long ago for repairs).
I cannot get your link to load, but any electrical varnish will be advertised as such. Try to avoid the red and black spray varnish, as they aren't very nice looking, relative to the cleat.
You can solder new headwire to the stator taps, but seal and tie down(with wax string), the new connection. It basically makes your new headwire a very long tail. There just isn't enough room in the Westy motors to put tails and wire nuts in. Wire nuts shouldn't be used in the motor on any fan, as vibration and oscillation will eventually shake them off, or worse, they'll smash the windings when you insert the stator.
Soldering tails to the switch and wire nuts to the head wire in the base should be fine. Just chase it with some electrical tape in case they come loose!

Your line wire can be safely connected directly to the switch plate, so those don't need tails.

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 02:04 pm
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Kevin Williams
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Alex Rushing wrote: Kevin Williams wrote: I have this 60's vintage box fan, that I bought in my hometown Napanee for $10. It was that sickly baby blue/turquoise that everything seemed to be coated in in the 60's.
It has a nice big motor, seems like th siz of a dang cantalope. Everything was rusty and the cord was shot.

At first just as a resurection, I cleaned the worst of the grime off, but none of the rust. I took the motor apart, cleaned it and oiled it. Slapped on a new power cable.
It rattled atr high speed, than I tightened the hex screw on the blade shaft.

6 months ago I lovingly took it apart, sanded and scrapd all the grime and rust and crust off everything. Cleaned up the chrome grills. Masked off the appropriate areas, and put four coats of the same blue spray paint.

What a peach it turned out to look like! Should I post up pictures of it elsewhere here?
Please do post pics, and they'll be seen more in a new topic post!

I did, its all over there. http://www.afcaforum.com/forum5/60922.html

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 02:09 pm
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Kevin Williams
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Alex Rushing wrote:
You're very right, and even my generation feels the same way(30-40yo, me being 34).

I feel as though the arrogance is fading a bit, as my generation ardently felt as if wood-sticker covered TVs, game consoles, and wireless/cell phones negated all technology before. People(16-26yo) seem to like having a few antiques or vintage(retro) things. The average age of people buying antique typewriters, phones, and cameras at my father's antique/second hand store is 19yo(or there abouts). Hopefully the trend is moving towards an appreciation for antiques. I don't know anyone(locally anyway) who likes the stuff I do, except for one or two who nay dabble in it once in a while. Seems I'm the obsessed one. Haha
I'm 34 too.  I have a nice shelf of antiques when I was 15. I sought out a good Pioneer turn table and played my Dad's milkcrate of 60-70's rock. Kids thought I was loony in 2000. Screw them.
Don't ever let other people stop you from enjoying the things you love.

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 02:11 pm
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Kevin Williams
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Alex Rushing wrote:
I cannot get your link to load, but any electrical varnish will be advertised as such. Try to avoid the red and black spray varnish, as they aren't very nice looking, relative to the cleat.
https://www.rustoleum.ca/product-catalog/consumer-brands/varathane/oil-based-clear-finishes/professional-clear-finish-ob

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 02:54 pm
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Kevin Williams
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Blue paint is going on folks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_tPE3o5NWk&ab_channel=PaulMauriat-Topic

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 04:00 pm
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Alex Rushing
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Unfortunately that won't penetrate the windings. Electrical varnish is designed to flow into and through friction tape and the old winding insulation. The cleat coats will mostly lay on top. Electrical varnish is to thin to use as a top coat, and vise versa the Rustoleum is to thick to use on stators.
Looking forward to seeing the final Westy results!

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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 04:02 pm
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Kevin Williams
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Alex Rushing wrote: Unfortunately that won't penetrate the windings. Electrical varnish is designed to flow into and through friction tape and the old winding insulation. The cleat coats will mostly lay on top. Electrical varnish is to thin to use as a top coat, and vise versa the Rustoleum is to thick to use on stators.
Looking forward to seeing the final Westy results!
OK thanks. I didn't do anything to the windings yet, IF I do anything beyond soldering new wires to it. For now my amateurish paint job is drying.
All im going to say is that modern day Rustolium paint is very very kind to newbies.

Last edited on Sat Oct 10th, 2020 04:04 pm by Kevin Williams

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