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TO: Mr.Darryl Hudson  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Thu Feb 27th, 2014 04:46 am
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Dean Steinhaus
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How many do I need to place an order for to get you to make SOME??

Dean Steinhaus

 

Last edited on Thu Feb 27th, 2014 05:07 am by Dean Steinhaus

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 Posted: Thu Feb 27th, 2014 01:26 pm
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Jim Humphrey
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I could use one or two also.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 27th, 2014 09:25 pm
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Steve Sherwood
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The only person I ever knew that made them was Dave Dalsin but he does not make them anymore.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 27th, 2014 09:56 pm
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Steve Stephens
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There was someone else casting kidney gearbox housings out of aluminum at one time.  I have one which I bought from Geoff.  No idea of the person who made the castings.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 27th, 2014 10:10 pm
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Jim Humphrey
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I really think the problem lies in the complexity of the casting and machining (and associated costs) and the willingness and ability of people to afford to pay what it costs.  I've got three complete and running kidney fans, but two of the gearboxes needed work because they were damaged one way or the other.  I've also got another three kidney fans with no gearboxes.  So I don't really have a crying need for more kidney gearboxes, but it'd be nice if they were available simply because the GE kidney fan is an impressive piece of brass and iron and more people would have them except for the gearbox being broken or missing at least 50 percent of the time.

Just my addled thoughts on the situation.

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 12:13 am
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Chris Benbow
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Seems to me that the housing is only part of the problem. Most of the incomplete kidneys I've seen don't have the contents of the gear box either...

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 01:23 am
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Jay Fontanella
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I spoke to Dave Dalsin at length several months ago when I was on my kidney kick and was shocked to hear that people actually complained at the price he was selling them for(which I believe was under 250.00 for the 3 pieces) Being a fabricator and restorer of old cars, I can honestly say that at less than 250.00 Dave was giving them away and providing a serious favor to the fan community. The fact that anyone complained about price, I dont blame him for why he stopped making them.  While I would really like for someone to reproduce them again, I completely understand why no one will. Dave did it as a hobbiest, Darryl is a professional machinist and earns a living doing fabrication. I  am sure  Darryl can speak for himself but I have to think that if he were to even consider doing a repro of those pieces, I am guessing they would be 2x-3x what Dave was selling them for. BTW,  I believe Darryl addressed never wanting to make them in a thread awhile back.

Last edited on Fri Feb 28th, 2014 01:30 am by Jay Fontanella

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 06:41 am
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Josh Backens
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Well said Jay and I can completely understand why anyone would quit. A lot of this stuff takes valuable time and costs $$ in materials. There's a lot of us out there who just simply don't know how long certain jobs take, what skills are involved, or how much money in materials are spent alone on any one certain job. When a price comes up, many think "well the fan itself is only worth blah...." Ok, well then it's probably not worth having someone fabricate, restore, or whatever for blah amount of $$. But if it's worth it to you, don't complain about the price it'll take to get fixed. It is what it is. 

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 12:18 pm
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Dean Steinhaus
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I have no doubt that the kidney gear box and cover are very time consuming to make. My hat is off to anyone out there that has the knowledge and equipment to make them! Personally, I would be willing to give 500.00 for one of Dave Dalsin's Kidney gear boxes.
If anyone has the knowledge, equipment, time and is willing to make about 30 of them, I believe you could make a profit.

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 02:15 pm
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TJ Downey
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Jay Fontanella wrote: I spoke to Dave Dalsin at length several months ago when I was on my kidney kick and was shocked to hear that people actually complained at the price he was selling them for(which I believe was under 250.00 for the 3 pieces) Being a fabricator and restorer of old cars, I can honestly say that at less than 250.00 Dave was giving them away and providing a serious favor to the fan community. The fact that anyone complained about price, I dont blame him for why he stopped making them.  While I would really like for someone to reproduce them again, I completely understand why no one will. Dave did it as a hobbiest, Darryl is a professional machinist and earns a living doing fabrication. I  am sure  Darryl can speak for himself but I have to think that if he were to even consider doing a repro of those pieces, I am guessing they would be 2x-3x what Dave was selling them for. BTW,  I believe Darryl addressed never wanting to make them in a thread awhile back.

Which is why I quit mass producing parts. Westinghouse acorn nuts, Emerson collars, Dayton pivot knuckle, R&M oscillator wheel. When I worked it out I found that I was working for $.13/hr. And this didn't include the cost of electricity or wear and tear on the machinery. So when I had people tell me my prices were too high, I said, "Enough is enough". 
I appoligize for this rant. But I had to get the burr out from under the saddle as it were.

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 02:58 pm
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Tim Marks
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Dean Steinhaus wrote: I have no doubt that the kidney gear box and cover are very time consuming to make. My hat is off to anyone out there that has the knowledge and equipment to make them! Personally, I would be willing to give 500.00 for one of Dave Dalsin's Kidney gear boxes.
If anyone has the knowledge, equipment, time and is willing to make about 30 of them, I believe you could make a profit.

Are you interested in buying 30? Do you need gears? Do other people need gears? Throw gears into the mix and at $500 there's no way to profit on it.
T

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 03:59 pm
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Michael Rathberger
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Dean Steinhaus wrote: I have no doubt that the kidney gear box and cover are very time consuming to make. My hat is off to anyone out there that has the knowledge and equipment to make them! Personally, I would be willing to give 500.00 for one of Dave Dalsin's Kidney gear boxes.
If anyone has the knowledge, equipment, time and is willing to make about 30 of them, I believe you could make a profit.

For $500, you can have my complete 16" running and sound GE Kidney to do what you want with. If however, you want the bronze gear box specifically, then I get it. I'll even deliver it to Darryls.

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 04:33 pm
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George Durbin
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Tim Marks wrote: Dean Steinhaus wrote: I have no doubt that the kidney gear box and cover are very time consuming to make. My hat is off to anyone out there that has the knowledge and equipment to make them! Personally, I would be willing to give 500.00 for one of Dave Dalsin's Kidney gear boxes.
If anyone has the knowledge, equipment, time and is willing to make about 30 of them, I believe you could make a profit.

Are you interested in buying 30? Do you need gears? Do other people need gears? Throw gears into the mix and at $500 there's no way to profit on it.
T


If the gear box is gone so are the gears! If someone can mass produce the box and gears the cost would still  be better spent on a complete kidney? Having said that, I have 3 kidneys no case or gears.... Mass produce? How many would you need to mass produce to get the price down? It would take a CNC machine punching these things out to get the cost down. Then the gear sets will still need to be produced...I am not sure the answer here for kidneys... If you could get $2K for a kidney maybe you could justify it. I think the gent making them before did it for the love of it because even at $2-$300 i dunno how they make up for their time or cost. Did those kidneys include the gear set inside? 
geo...

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 05:57 pm
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Dean Steinhaus
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Hi Michael,
Yes, I am looking for the bronze gear box and top cover. I have all of the gears.

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 06:20 pm
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Dean Steinhaus
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Hi Tim,
I don't need the gears. 30 was just a number I picked, hoping that would be enough to make it worth someone's time to make a profit.
If you are able to make the egear box and cover, let me know what 30 would cost.

Dean

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 07:29 pm
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George Durbin
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Dean Steinhaus wrote: Hi Tim,
I don't need the gears. 30 was just a number I picked, hoping that would be enough to make it worth someone's time to make a profit.
If you are able to make the egear box and cover, let me know what 30 would cost.

Dean


I sure hope you gitter done!

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 08:18 pm
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Tim Marks
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I've toyed with the idea a few times. In order for me to even get started I need to model the gearbox and I just haven't had the time to do it. If I did I would have the gearboxes cast in bronze then CNC the remaining geometry using a fixture. I would NOT do the gears though, I've never cut gears before and wouldn't want to go down that road.

Steps needed for me to get this done:

Model the gearbox
Build a milling fixture (not terribly difficult)
Create the CAM for the milling operation
Develop a relationship with the foundry down the road and see if they have any interest in casting this.
3D print a casting positive (to allow for shrinkage)

Then go from there.

I'll keep thinking about it.

T

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 09:14 pm
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Dean Steinhaus
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Tim......I'll say a little prayer that you can't get a good nights sleep untill you start making them.....LOL:bow:imao

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 09:15 pm
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Dean Steinhaus
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Better Call DAVE DALSIN:D

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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2014 11:33 pm
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Tim Marks
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Dean-

How important is it to you that the gearbox is bronze? Do you want a bronze gearbox to show off or do you want a working gearbox to paint? The reason why I ask is because I'd be able to rapid prototype you a working gear box (sans gears) out of bronze impregnated stainless steel, but you'd have to sand it, fill it, and paint it. it likely wouldn't look great on its own.

T

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 12:26 am
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Dean Steinhaus
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If your giving me a choice it would be the (BBB) Bling, Bling, Bronze!

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 12:29 am
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Josh Backens
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BLING FOR SURE!!!!!!

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 12:36 am
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Dean Steinhaus
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Great minds think alike Josh!:tumbs

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 01:14 am
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Darryl Hudson
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Well I guess since Dean addressed this question directly to me, I'll go ahead and give an explanation to my position.  Many of you who have posted above get it (why I don't care to make them).  The kidney fans only bring so much money.  The cost to make the gearbox and all of the components far exceeds the worth of the fan.  I made several of these some 15 or so years ago.  I think Carlton got one or maybe two, and David Senn got one.  I don't remember who got the others.  The gearbox case itself I had cast in brass from an original as well as the top and pointer.  The gears I cut from round bar, and all of the other components including the little spring and ball detent mechanism was custom made.  As many of you know, when you have something cast there is shrinkage involved. (Kinda like George in the pool on that episode of Sinefeld). There's just so many factors to consider when you make these things.  First of all, the gearbox is such an odd shape that even the simplest task of holding/fixturing to do the machining is something to deal with.  There are two standoffs inside the bottom of the gearbox where two holes are to be bored/reamed to accept the two vertical shafts that hold the two large gears.  The distance between these two holes is very critical as this is what determines the tooth engagement of the gears.  With the shrinkage of the gearbox housing, you can't just bore the holes in the center of the standoffs (these bored/reamed holes also have to be parallel to each other, perpendicular to the rotor shaft, and parallel to the machined face of the flange that mounts to the back of the motor) since with the shrinkage the two reamed holes in the bottom of the gearbox will end up being off center (ex centric) to the standoffs.  With any casted part there's a lot of rough excess on the casting.  The top has to be "fitted" which is another pain in the butt with warpage that usually exists.  I could go on and on, but bottom line is it takes a lot of set up, time, tooling.   Those gearboxes I made years ago I sold for $500 each--complete ready to mount, and I swore to myself I'd never make them again.  I stuck to my quote of $500 because that's what I quoted before hand and that's what people were expecting to have to pay.  Like TJ said, if I figured my per hour dollars on those things I was working for peanuts.  If I didn't have any other work, or if I was starving to death, yeah, maybe I'd make them.   But right now, and most always I have some backlog in the shop so there's plenty to keep me busy.    Sorry Dean.  You sound like you genuinely would like to have these reproduced, but I won't do it.  Maybe someone who does fans as a hobby will take the project.  I've got to stick with projects I can pay the electric bill and buy groceries. Phyllis has gotten used to eating 3 or 4 times a week so this is not something I care to do. 

 
I've tried to seriously explain my position while interjecting a little humor to keep the conversation light.  Honestly, I'd like to see someone take this project and get it done.  The Kidney oscillator is a piece of GEs history in oscillation movement and definitely worthy of being salvaged.  If there's one thing I cringe to see is a kidney with no gearbox, and the worm has been hack sawed off so it doesn't stick out the back of the motor and twist the cats tail when he walks by (ain't that right Steve ?)


Somebody?   Anybody?

 

Last edited on Sat Mar 1st, 2014 01:38 am by Darryl Hudson

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 01:33 am
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Dean Steinhaus
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Thanks for responding Darryl,
To some of us the Kidney fans are worth more than they would sell for. Would the gear boxes and covers that you made some 15 years ago work with the original internal parts, gears etc.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 01:46 am
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Darryl Hudson
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Yes I think original components would fit the boxes I made as I used the original spacing/dimensions as the original, even though there was shrinkage of the gearbox casting, I compensated by keeping the gears same size and spacing, and grinding away a little more of the internal wall of the gear box so the gears would clear it.  I can't speak for those that others have made.

Edit:  I'm not sure what the shrinkage factor is with brass, but with cast iron you generally lose .015" per inch.  In other words if you have a 6" long part and have it cast in cast iron,  the product will be .015" X 6 shorter than the original, or .090", which is about 3/32".  In a gearbox where you have clearance, alignment, and engagement features, 3/32" is a LOT!

2nd Edit:  A good caster can make adjustments for shrinkage if he will take the time to do it.  As in the case of something such as an oscillator arm linkage, He first must make a casting of the original, then on that repro he can cut it half into and add whatever the shrinkage factor is and make the repro longer, and then cast it again so that when it shrinks it ends up the same length of the original.   For something as complex as the gearbox, I don't know how he would make the correction, but I don't do foundry work.   I'm sure those guys have their secrets.
A good example is the back castings of the Victor Luminaire fans.  Those things must be 14" across.  I won't call any names but years ago a member had some of those backs done in cast iron because so many of those Luminaire fans have the backs broken out of them there is a good demand for them, but when the product was done the back was 1/4" too small in diameter and would not line up with any of the holes where it mounted.






Last edited on Sat Mar 1st, 2014 02:03 am by Darryl Hudson

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 01:50 am
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Dean Steinhaus
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Honestly, what would you need to charge to make one more brass gear box and cover only to make it worth your time?

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 02:04 am
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Darryl Hudson
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:hammer:

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 02:10 am
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Dean Steinhaus
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LOL!!:clap:

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 02:20 am
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Steve Stephens
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Darryl Hudson wrote:  If there's one thing I cringe to see is a kidney with no gearbox, and the worm has been hack sawed off so it doesn't stick out the back of the motor and twist the cats tail when he walks by (ain't that right Steve ?)
I've only had one kidney, a 12" Hunter with a repro ALUMINUM gearbox.  Have never used it and it's out of the way of the cats.

Do you know who made the repro kidneys out of aluminum?

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 02:38 am
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Dean Steinhaus
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Tim ! Are you taking notes?:bow

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 02:53 am
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Tim Marks
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Dean- how badly damaged is your gearbox? A repair isn't impossible.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 02:56 am
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Dean Steinhaus
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I have repaired some in the past. This one is shattered beyond repair.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 04:03 am
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Josh Backens
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Pics please :). 

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 04:07 am
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Jay Fontanella
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Tim Marks wrote: I've toyed with the idea a few times. In order for me to even get started I need to model the gearbox and I just haven't had the time to do it. If I did I would have the gearboxes cast in bronze then CNC the remaining geometry using a fixture. I would NOT do the gears though, I've never cut gears before and wouldn't want to go down that road.

Steps needed for me to get this done:

Model the gearbox
Build a milling fixture (not terribly difficult)
Create the CAM for the milling operation
Develop a relationship with the foundry down the road and see if they have any interest in casting this.
3D print a casting positive (to allow for shrinkage)

Then go from there.

I'll keep thinking about it.

 

Tim

Dave Dalsin had a good usable wax mold for the kidney housing and pointer, unfortunately he gave it away to another member who probably has good intentions but has done nothing with it. I cant remember who it was right now, but I did approach the current holder of the mold a few months back and he was trying to get to the project and not willing to pass the torch. Hopefully he is reading this thread and will chime in. It would be nice if someone, who is willing to take the mold to the next step,  get the mold that Dave made. I will state for the record that I am in for 2 Kidney housings(top and bottom) and I dont need the gears. I would pay up to 300 for the 2 pieces if anyone decides or is trying to decide whether to do this or not.

 

 

Last edited on Sat Mar 1st, 2014 04:22 am by Jay Fontanella

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 12:12 pm
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Dean Steinhaus
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Please chime in Mr. Wax Keeper!!:bulleta

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 04:31 pm
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Thomas Peters
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I will start with a heresy among fan people. 
Make a gear box cover and gear box out of a modern plastic. It could be injection molded, or might even be produced with a 3-D copier.
Honestly, as far  as  strength, it would probably equal or might even exceed an original pot metal job.
Being out of plastic, it should also benefit from minimal shrinkage.
Once painted, no one should ever know what it was made from, just by casual observation.


Allright, here come the slings  and arrows.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 06:59 pm
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Jay Fontanella
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Thomas Peters wrote: I will start with a heresy among fan people. 
Make a gear box cover and gear box out of a modern plastic. It could be injection molded, or might even be produced with a 3-D copier.
Honestly, as far  as  strength, it would probably equal or might even exceed an original pot metal job.
Being out of plastic, it should also benefit from minimal shrinkage.
Once painted, no one should ever know what it was made from, just by casual observation.


Allright, here come the slings  and arrows.


Tom

You deserve no daggers for suggesting a good economical and probably very viable solution to the kidney issue. I even thought of it myself as I have been debating about buying a 3d printer and trying to think of all the projects I wanted to do with it to get my monies worth out of it. However, as much as you are correct that no one would ever know, I personally cant get past the plastic being bolted on to my iron fan. It almost flies in the face of what the old fans represent, to me anyway. I believe they are coming out with a metal casting 3d printer, or they may have already. Its been awhile since I reasearched it.

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 10:12 pm
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Dean Steinhaus
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THIS IS A COPY OF THE PM THAT I SENT TO DAVE DALSIN

Hi Dave,

Jay Fontanella, a member of the AFCA, mentioned that you made some really good wax molds for the kidney housing and pointer when you were producing them. He also said he thought that you gave them to someone that was going to try and make some more. I have been speaking with Tim Marks about the possibility of making them again and was wondering if the person that you gave the wax molds to would be willing to let Tim Marks use them.

Any help would be greatly Appreciated by all of us Kidney FANS!

Thank You,

Dean

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 Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2014 11:44 pm
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Jeff Whitfield
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Steve Stephens wrote: There was someone else casting kidney gearbox housings out of aluminum at one time.  I have one which I bought from Geoff.  No idea of the person who made the castings.That was Paul Graves and he made over 50 of then over the years, he says. We saw this thread at the fan meet.

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