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AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Post-1950 (Vintage) > Free: Black + Blum Propello Fan
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AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Post-1950 (Vintage) > Free: Black + Blum Propello Fan | |||||
| Moderated by: Steve Cunningham, Stan Adams, Rod Rogers | Page: 1 2   |
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| Free: Black + Blum Propello Fan | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Fri Jul 8th, 2011 09:32 pm |
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1st Post |
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David Hunter Guest 
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For several years now, I have thought that Black + Blum's Propello fan is the most beautiful fan design of the 21st century. It is also the quietest fan I have ever heard. This fan has very little torque and pushes out the gentlest breeze. Because of this, the Propello fan has cleverly avoided OSHA regulations from having to put a cage on the front of the fan. It is the perfect fan for a bedroom nightstand. So why am I giving this fan away for free? The fan is in pristine condition but the motor is broken. After just 3 seasons, the motor overheated and just stopped working. I am friends with the designer of this fan and I thought that this would be the perfect opportunity to get someone in the AFCA who really knows about fan motors to take a look at this motor. I would like to give this fan to someone who will take the motor apart and then give constructive advice as to how this motor can be improved. I will then forward this information to the designers to do as they wish. Hopefully Black + Blum will be able to integrate new engineering methods into their motors so that the next iteration of the Propello fan will be as long lasting as the best antique fans on this forum. Also, if you can get the motor working again, all the better. You will have a great fan for free. I am hoping that there will be several people interested in taking on this small project. Unfortunately, I can only give it to one person. I will give this fan to the person who is the most enthusiastic about really trying to help better engineer a masterpiece of design. Please, try and keep your posts on this thread constructive. It will only benefit the feedback I provide to Black + Blum. Thank you.  Last edited on Mon Jul 11th, 2011 07:36 pm by David Hunter |
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| Posted: Fri Jul 8th, 2011 11:38 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Lewis Fitzgerald-Holland Guest 
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If I had more motor knowledge I would jump on this fan and find out how to improve it, lot's of people here know a lot, so someone should jump on it!
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| Posted: Sat Jul 9th, 2011 12:40 am |
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3rd Post |
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Jay Bernard AFCA Member 
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I'd love to tackle this, but I'm not as technical as I should be when suggesting improvements... I think Bill Fanum would be your guy...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 9th, 2011 01:20 am |
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4th Post |
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Tom Zussman Guest
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love to have it, love to build and mod things, but i honestly think someone else who is a longer time member and able to rewire should get this.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 9th, 2011 10:05 am |
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5th Post |
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Todd Mann Guest 
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hey David...pm sent
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| Posted: Sat Jul 9th, 2011 04:13 pm |
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6th Post |
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David Hunter Guest
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Sold! For Free, to Todd Mann.  Last edited on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 04:14 pm by David Hunter |
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| Posted: Sat Jul 9th, 2011 05:11 pm |
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7th Post |
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Austin B Ko Guest
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The one major improvement I could think of, is that the fan needs some sort of lubrication system for better performance.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 9th, 2011 05:50 pm |
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8th Post |
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David Hunter Guest
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Hi Austin. I am not so sure about that. The motor seems well lubricated. Ron Powell has suggested that the motor may simply be too small to power the blades. From my experience of it heating up too much, I would probably agree. The back of the motor housing heats up quite a bit after just an hour or so running. The trick would be to make a larger motor but keep the rpm's down. There may be something else about the motor which is inefficient also. We will wait to see what Todd's findings are. I have used this fan for about 6 months total over three years. Not bad but it would be great if there were some way to get the motor to a point that it will run as long and reliable as the best of the fans on this forum. If this motor can be made better and sold at a $25-$50 price increase, then the Propello fan would have no rivals as far as I'm concerned. Last edited on Sat Jul 9th, 2011 05:51 pm by David Hunter |
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| Posted: Sat Jul 9th, 2011 06:40 pm |
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9th Post |
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Austin B Ko Guest
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David Hunter wrote: Hi Austin. I am not so sure about that. The motor seems well lubricated.Any motor regardless if its industrial to little record player motors, needs some sort of lubrication in order to maintain the bearings over time. Motors made today use "permanently sealed" bearings which usually give out a couple years after purchase due to the bearings drying out and wearing down. Im saying oil ports on the Propello would benefit it. It would then last much longer then the competitor's fans and would out preform them. Also if you want the fan to last as long as the fans on here it needs a lubrication system like the fans on here do.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10th, 2011 01:35 pm |
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10th Post |
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Doug Handley AFCA Member 
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Austin B Ko wrote: if you want the fan to last as long as the fans on here it needs a lubrication system like the fans on here do. Makes sense to me. There ain't no such thing as "permanently lubricated"
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10th, 2011 01:55 pm |
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11th Post |
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David Hunter Guest
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Thanks Austin, I understand what you are saying and it makes sense to me. This fan design is so slick and minimal, I can't even imagine Black + Blum designing a way to lubricate the bearings in this fan. I will mention it to them though.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10th, 2011 02:26 pm |
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12th Post |
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Steve Stephens AFCA Member 
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Ball bearings were used in the Black & Blum fan. I wonder if they are lubed and sealed or what.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10th, 2011 02:52 pm |
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13th Post |
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David Hunter Guest
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Yes, ball bearings were used in this fan, Steve. On second thought, Austin, there is grease that can be used and sealed in the bearing housing that lasts an extremely long amount of time. I do believe there is a way to build a fan that has a sealed lubrication system that will last for years and years. I am back to the motor-not-being-large-enough theory. Todd, you are in charge, but it looks as if several people may be able to contribute on how to make a better fan motor. Last edited on Sun Jul 10th, 2011 02:58 pm by David Hunter |
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2011 02:35 am |
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14th Post |
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John McComas AFCA Member 
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I think the Soleus is the knock off of this fan. http://www.soleusair.com/soleusair/ft1_20_10.html I got one of these. The blade was out of balance, which I balanced, and discovered that a 25 watt motor is not strong enough to get the blade close to synchronous speed, so the motor slips and overheats because it was not designed for a high slip application. (It was a shaded 2 pole) But, if the motor was stronger to get the blade speed up, the fan would not pass the no guard OSHA test. (Finger hurt from higher speed.) Everything is a compromise. To keep the fan quiet, the blade speed has to be slow, which means high wing pitch. So what can be done? More AC motor poles. High slip designed motor. Use a low voltage DC motor with speed control. Slightly reduce wing pitch for more air flow, and design motor housing to move more air across the motor. I'm sure the Chinese already make a motor that will work. And by the way, the Chinese use a "auto-reset" high temperature thermostat that shuts the motor off if it gets too hot. The Soleus can be bought from Amazon for $19 Attached Image (viewed 2120 times): Last edited on Mon Jul 11th, 2011 02:49 am by John McComas |
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2011 03:08 am |
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15th Post |
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David Hunter Guest
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Hi John, Yes the Soleus is knock-off of the Black + Blum Propello fan but your insights into Soleus's motor may yield benefits into the insight of the Propello motor. The motor in the Propello is also a shaded two pole motor. Any similarities between these two fans beyond this, I don't know. Yes, a bigger motor would cause a faster spinning blade therefore requiring a gaurd as per OSHA regulations. That is what is so clever about the Propello. So how does one take the Propello motor, keep it from overheating, and keep it running indefinitley? Yes, I see how fan motors are now considered simple examples of mechanical engineering but the devil is in the details. Last edited on Mon Jul 11th, 2011 04:27 am by David Hunter |
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2011 04:18 am |
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16th Post |
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Todd Mann Guest
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I think, after reading what John said that there is a few compromises to get it perfect...im wondering what can actually be changed... hey David, i bet the motor might be the only thing we could change...have they bought tooling for the components like the blade, etc.? Im expecting to see a little hobby type motor in it. Hey John...could you get a rectifier in that little housing? The dc is a good idea.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2011 04:49 am |
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17th Post |
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David Hunter Guest
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Guys, I just checked. The motor is model # SP-5812. Here is the link: http://www.diytrade.com/china/4/products/2374085/Fan_motor.html Last edited on Mon Jul 11th, 2011 04:51 am by David Hunter |
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2011 12:35 pm |
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18th Post |
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Fred Berry Guest 
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The motor David posted above looks to be identical to the motor in my massive Lakewood 4" high velocity air circulator...I run this fan 24/7 to cool the inside of my computer tower. It runs fine and the motor only gets slightly warm. Attached Image (viewed 1821 times):
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2011 12:43 pm |
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19th Post |
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David Hunter Guest
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...and the plot thickens. Fred's fan is 4", the Propello is 8". Potential problem?
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2011 02:23 pm |
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20th Post |
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Jay Bernard AFCA Member
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Just strap one of these in it... I guarantee it won't overheat! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfJ_684zUVI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2011 02:58 pm |
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21st Post |
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Todd Mann Guest
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Freds blades have a lot of pitch compared to the propello...hey fred...can you see a part # on that thing?
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2011 03:54 pm |
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22nd Post |
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Tom Zussman Guest
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what i was thinking is get a higher wattage 8volt transformer, a hobbygrade digital brushless outrunner and a small esc, somehow link up a transmitter to set speeds. outrunners have absolutly no problem turning a small platic prop at 1500rpm all day long. only problem you will face is you would need a rather bulky controll box that includes esc, transmitter, reciver and transformer.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2011 07:25 pm |
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23rd Post |
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Nicholas Denney Guest 
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This Propello fan really is a failure. Caframo's got the whole deal figured out with their Elan and Dragonfly fans. Looks like it's time for someone to start cheating. 
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2011 04:56 am |
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24th Post |
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Todd Mann Guest
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I got the little fan today and i have to say it gets a good review from me, i like it. The motor mount screws had come loose and the whole motor was pretty sloppy and the blade hub was hitting the motor housing. It needed a couple of drops of oil, especially on the front bushing. It runs great. I was surprised that this little fan is all cast aluminum except for the little bullet back cover. It actually has some weight to it, it does not even imply cheapness. So...i think the motor is just fine for the fan, it must be pretty dang tough to survive being stopped while under power, probably for quite a while. it needs a oil hole though, or a better front bearing...i bet it will run for years as is though. It would be a big help to lighten up that blade, its thick rubber and while safe it gets out of whack pretty bad and its heavy. The motor does spin it just fine though and it puts out a sweet little breeze. Check it out. Thanks a lot David...I really appreciate your generosity. Attached Image (viewed 1897 times): Last edited on Thu Jul 14th, 2011 04:58 am by Todd Mann |
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2011 04:56 am |
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25th Post |
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Todd Mann Guest
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w Attached Image (viewed 1776 times):
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2011 04:57 am |
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26th Post |
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Todd Mann Guest
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w Attached Image (viewed 2067 times):
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2011 04:57 am |
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27th Post |
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Todd Mann Guest
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w Attached Image (viewed 1973 times):
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2011 01:46 pm |
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28th Post |
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Fred Berry Guest
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Todd Mann wrote: Freds blades have a lot of pitch compared to the propello...hey fred...can you see a part # on that thing? Hi Todd, On the side of the motor is that little white data tag as you can see in the above photo. It says: Model No. HV-4 120VAC 60HZ 0.5 amp Made in China for Lakewood eng & MFG. CO. Chicago, Illinois 60612. Thats all I can find at the moment on the motor which in itself is only about 2" diameter.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2011 01:48 pm |
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29th Post |
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Fred Berry Guest
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That is a sweet looking fan though. I like it!!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2011 03:32 pm |
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30th Post |
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Tom Zussman Guest
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only two poles? what if you added a self-resetting thermal fuse and make it spin start?
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2011 03:45 pm |
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31st Post |
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David Hunter Guest
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The motor is 2 1/4" X 2 1/4". Very small. Yes, I too wonder about adding more poles or implementing some of the suggestions you all have made here. We have a chance to design a better motor for this fan. The purpose of giving this fan away is so that we can come up with suggestions about how to better engineer a fan motor. I think this would be an engineering dream for those of you who are mechanically inclined. I hope Todd and the rest of you will come through with suggestions. So here are the suggestions so far: - More AC poles - High slip designed motor - Low voltage DC motor with speed control - Slightly reduced wing pitch for more air flow - Redesign motor housing for better motor airflow - Self-resetting thermal fuse - Needs oil hole - Needs better front bearing I know nothing about motor design but how possible is it to implement these suggestions in such a small motor? If the motor is too small, what is the smallest motor size that can be made that will incorporate these ideas? Like I said this fan is a design masterpiece. I bet the motor inside this fan can be an engineering masterpiece as well. Last edited on Thu Jul 14th, 2011 04:17 pm by David Hunter |
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2011 05:35 pm |
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32nd Post |
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Todd Mann Guest
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I forgot to mention that the motor pulls no air through itself. Last edited on Thu Jul 14th, 2011 05:36 pm by Todd Mann |
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14th, 2011 11:50 pm |
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33rd Post |
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Tom Zussman Guest
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i honestly think (i posted earlier) a hobby grade DC outrunner would be the best idea, you would have to have a little black box on the cord, but outrunners can be gotten very cheaply, they produce tons of torque, most have thier own built in fan to keep things cool, and are very small. the best one to use is the one with the lowest KV (some are 500rpm per volt) the only issue is buying all the equipment nessisairy (rx, tx, transformer and speed control) and then having to set the speed every time its turned off. talk about power to weight efficency- i have one that is the size of a c-battery and produces .8HP at 11volts!
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15th, 2011 04:16 am |
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34th Post |
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David Hunter Guest
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Tom Zussman wrote:i honestly think (i posted earlier) a hobby grade DC outrunner would be the best idea, you would have to have a little black box on the cord, but outrunners can be gotten very cheaply, they produce tons of torque, most have thier own built in fan to keep things cool, and are very small. the best one to use is the one with the lowest KV (some are 500rpm per volt) Tom, thank you for your advice and for your continued contributions to this thread. Please, is there a DC motor that already exists that fit this criteria? How would a DC motor be an imporvement over an AC motor? If you have a DC motor the size of a battery, can a transformer and speed control be build into the motor housing and still be kept very small?
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15th, 2011 01:21 pm |
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35th Post |
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Todd Mann Guest
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I ran the fan for a few hours yesterday and after just 30 minutes or so it was pretty hot...there isnt any air moving through the motor and the heat is probably bad for the bushings/oil. it runs good though, and the heat build up levels off. I think the thick rubber blade is the biggest issue with the heat build up... The rubber wings are kinda deformed too...not balanced and they will hit the front part of the stand. the hub has a little wobble to also. Last edited on Fri Jul 15th, 2011 02:07 pm by Todd Mann |
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16th, 2011 04:01 am |
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36th Post |
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Tom Zussman Guest
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David Hunter wrote: Tom Zussman wrote: you can buy a brushless out-runner the size of a thimble to the size of a soda can from $7-23 on smaller ones. i dont fully understand thier function, but they use almost 100% of energy given (around 98%) into rotation, partly due to the digitalized Hz because the use of a signal wire (think dyson's crapola) so there is no waste in cycles. you can get a speed control for $18 and a radio for $20. this is expensive for a project, but for a company to pick the parts they need and buy in bulk the change over wouldnt be that much. not sure how many amps you would need to supply since you need to ask a fraction of what it can do, but like mine at full clock it eats 600watts (around 55K rpm) but we only need 1500rpm. for this project you are limited in whats at market, but like said, a perpose made speed controll should be able to fit in the housing, and the transformer just a little black block on the wire. dyson might be using this tech now, so patents may apply.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17th, 2011 02:12 am |
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37th Post |
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Nicholas Denney Guest
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I've had to stare at the picture Todd posted every time I look at this thread... What's wrong with that one blade????
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17th, 2011 02:46 am |
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38th Post |
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Todd Mann Guest
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The blades are kinda deformed, you see a big curl in one of them but they are all kinda funky. way out of balance and the hub wobbling a little is probably very hard on the little motor. This fan really needs a new blade....a very light plastic blade thats dull on the edges would still be safe, i would like to see a 4 wing prop style blade on it. I have to say that this motor is tough...this thing has been running for more than 24 hours straight, and im not gonna kill it yet. its doing its job.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19th, 2011 01:40 am |
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39th Post |
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John McComas AFCA Member
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Hey Todd, Since you are able to make it to Fan Fair, bring the fan along and I'll balance the blade for you. With the blade being out of balance, the motor runs slower, moves less air, and is hard on the bushings. I'll have equipment to measure speed, watts, stroboscope and static balance etc.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19th, 2011 04:48 am |
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40th Post |
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Tom Zussman Guest
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thats cool, but i bet vort blades would still be a pain with all that equipment!
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