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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2018 07:05 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Hey, guys. Glad to find this forum!
I have an ILG, probably from the early 50s that ran in my building for 60 some odd years before dying a month ago. The motor, I am told, cannot be rebuilt. I have tried replacing it with a new fan, but by comparison new fans seem to be... well, toys.

The fan is 21" wall mounted ILG Type Q, model 213,120 single phase with 1/5 hp motor. 


Any suggestions would be most appreciated!

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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2018 07:34 pm
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Thomas Peters
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Is there another motor re-builder in your area? Sounds like a second opinion may be in order.

In any case, do you know what happened? Such as bearings, or stator failure?

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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2018 07:42 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Thomas Peters wrote: Is there another motor re-builder in your area? Sounds like a second opinion may be in order.

In any case, do you know what happened? Such as bearings, or stator failure?

The closest one is 20 miles, but I would travel a lot further. He has a great reputation and has rebuilt motors for friends who have old machines, so I have taken him at his word.

As to the specific problem, it was not bearings. I am afraid I cannot recall the terms he used, as I am not fluent in electrical matters. I can report a great deal of smoke a noxious aroma! 

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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2018 08:05 pm
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Tom Morel
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I'm guessing that the windings went out. Expensive to fix, but not impossible for a skilled technician.

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 Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2018 11:08 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Tom Morel wrote: I'm guessing that the windings went out. Expensive to fix, but not impossible for a skilled technician.
Hey, Tom - I'll have to call the rebuilder to get the specifics. Perhaps it is something someone else can do, and if that is the case (and if he hasn't thrown the motor away), I will definitely pursue that path. 

I am not happy with the dinky Chinese replacement - more hp but less air movinng, and it looks and sounds SO WRONG! 

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 Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2018 06:22 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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I have retrieved the motor. Attached a couple of photos without motor cover taken before removing assembly from the wall. 

I would very much appreciate any recommendation of someone who can rebuild this.


Thanks!
Gregory

Ps. I am told the field windings are shot. 











Last edited on Mon Jul 9th, 2018 06:23 pm by Gregory Merrick

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 12:02 am
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Andrew Block
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I know we have a local place that will rewind them. I don't have a replacement motor for a 213 unfortunately.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 12:08 am
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Thomas Peters
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While these people specialize in armatures, they might recommend someone to take care of your problem.

http://www.whitearmature.com

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 12:42 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: I know we have a local place that will rewind them. I don't have a replacement motor for a 213 unfortunately.
That is unfortunate, Andrew, but thanks for thinking of it. I am checking out "local" rebuilders up here. A lot of German craftsmen, you know? :D

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 12:43 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Thomas Peters wrote: While these people specialize in armatures, they might recommend someone to take care of your problem.

http://www.whitearmature.com

Interesting. They're in Wisco but 4 + hours from me. WAY up north! 

 I'll give them a call tomorrow. 

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 01:01 am
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Andrew Block
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I would think any industrial motor house could work on this. It isn't THAT complicated of a motor. Worst case is they wind it for one speed only.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 01:10 am
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Gregory Merrick
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The fan motor support is an interesting configuration. Does anyone know why the bottom of the three struts is a hollow tube, unlike the two upper struts? Did ILG expect wiring to be run through there, or was it a structural consideration? The tube ends right at the wiring box.





Attached Image (viewed 508 times):

IMG_1895.jpg

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 01:13 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: I would think any industrial motor house could work on this. It isn't THAT complicated of a motor. Worst case is they wind it for one speed only.
I believe it is a one speed, either 115 or 230. 

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 01:34 am
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Andrew Block
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Most were 2 speed. I this 213SH in my shop, which is a one speed on a triac control. 

The tube is for cooling the motor, hence why they called it the "self-cooled motor fan". The pressure from the fan running would pull air through the tube from outside, where theoretically it is cooler and cleaner air than whatever you were exhausting from outside.


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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 03:22 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: Most were 2 speed. I this 213SH in my shop, which is a one speed on a triac control. 

The tube is for cooling the motor, hence why they called it the "self-cooled motor fan". The pressure from the fan running would pull air through the tube from outside, where theoretically it is cooler and cleaner air than whatever you were exhausting from outside.



Hey, Andrew, beautiful machine! If I can get the motor running, I'll bring the assembly back up to snuff. I have a refinishing shop in my building, so no difficulty there. 

I don't have much reason for speed control on this one. It draws cool night air through approximately 4,000 sq', which allows us to live without AC most of the summer, and if the draft is too strong or cool, I can open doors and vents to control it. 

The guys who installed this fan (my building is a decommissioned power plant converted into power company headquarters in '52) did not vent that tube to the outside, but just drilled into a the 4x4 framing and stopped when there was sufficient clearance. 

Do you happen to know what the letters "SH" or "Q" stand for in the model name? I'm guessing the "21" is diameter and the "3" is prop blades...



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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 04:54 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Okay, so I think SH is high speed, SL low speed, and Q.... quiet? 

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 05:23 pm
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Andrew Block
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Gregory Merrick wrote:

I don't have much reason for speed control on this one. It draws cool night air through approximately 4,000 sq', which allows us to live without AC most of the summer, and if the draft is too strong or cool, I can open doors and vents to control it. 

The guys who installed this fan (my building is a decommissioned power plant converted into power company headquarters in '52) did not vent that tube to the outside, but just drilled into a the 4x4 framing and stopped when there was sufficient clearance. 

Do you happen to know what the letters "SH" or "Q" stand for in the model name? I'm guessing the "21" is diameter and the "3" is prop blades...




That is a neat setup. I know of a house here with an Ilg whole house fan but it is a fairly large one.

I would definitely get that repaired, you won't find a quieter or better fan, and to replace it with one from Grainger would be almost (if not more) than the price of a rewind. If you find a place, I have a 24" I will eventually get rewound, as does another member. Make sure you replace your capacitor, that is how his burned out, the capacitor failed and the motor stalled and cooked itself to death.

I think SH was just short for speed/high. The SH is 1140RPM and the 213S is 1140/855 2 speed. Q stands for "quiet blade", and 213 is 21" with 3 propellers.

You might think about opening up the hole a bit to allow some ventilation. The cooling mechanism is very effective on these, especially as the fans get larger. 

This is my 423 that another member built a starting box and restored mechanically. Ilg put alot of engineering into that blade design, both for sound and for air capacity. They blow air in a straight line at a higher velocity, owed to their heritage as exhaust fans. Lots of fans move the same or larger CFM but the air dissipates a few feet from the blade, whereas the Q blade sort of shoots out a column of air. I can put that 423 at one end of my 40' loading dock and it produces a nice breeze at the other end. You can also comfortably converse in front of it running without raising your voice. It really was a advanced blade design.


Last edited on Tue Jul 10th, 2018 05:28 pm by Andrew Block

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 Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2018 07:20 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: I would definitely get that repaired, you won't find a quieter or better fan, and to replace it with one from Grainger would be almost (if not more) than the price of a rewind. If you find a place, I have a 24" I will eventually get rewound, as does another member. Make sure you replace your capacitor, that is how his burned out, the capacitor failed and the motor stalled and cooked itself to death.

I think SH was just short for speed/high. The SH is 1140RPM and the 213S is 1140/855 2 speed. Q stands for "quiet blade", and 213 is 21" with 3 propellers.

You might think about opening up the hole a bit to allow some ventilation. The cooling mechanism is very effective on these, especially as the fans get larger. 

This is my 423 that another member built a starting box and restored mechanically. Ilg put alot of engineering into that blade design, both for sound and for air capacity. They blow air in a straight line at a higher velocity, owed to their heritage as exhaust fans. Lots of fans move the same or larger CFM but the air dissipates a few feet from the blade, whereas the Q blade sort of shoots out a column of air. I can put that 423 at one end of my 40' loading dock and it produces a nice breeze at the other end. You can also comfortably converse in front of it running without raising your voice. It really was a advanced blade design.

You forgot to mention, "or better looking." The modern iteration looks like it would be at home in a pole barn but definitely not in a turn of the last century German style brick industrial building.

Now that I know about the cooling tube, I'll put it to use.

I love the way the ILG starts up. In no hurry at all. And then it begins to sound as if there may be trouble - perhaps it is shoving the shutter out of the way or the blades hit some sort of harmonic distortion - and suddenly all goes quiet, and you can tell without hearing it that a great deal of air is being moved.

I've got something temporary in that space. While it is rated for the same CFM, turns at a similar RPM, and has a ½ horse motor, it doesn't move anywhere near the same volume of air, and it sounds silly.   

I enjoy watching your videos! Thanks for posting them.

Gregory





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 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 02:05 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote:[highlight= rgb(248, 248, 248);]  Make sure you replace your capacitor, that is how his burned out, the capacitor failed and the motor stalled and cooked itself to death.

Pretty sure that's what happened to mine. The capacitor was destroyed, and I first thought I was smelling diesel exhaust.

Last edited on Wed Jul 11th, 2018 02:05 am by Gregory Merrick

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 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 03:55 am
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Andrew Block
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The old capacitors aren't built to fail, it short circuits directly into the windings.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 04:01 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: The old capacitors aren't built to fail, it short circuits directly into the windings.

So the new ones are sacrificial? 


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 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 04:48 am
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Andrew Block
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Gregory Merrick wrote: Andrew Block wrote: The old capacitors aren't built to fail, it short circuits directly into the windings.

So the new ones are sacrificial? 



Don't quote me on it, but I believe new capacitors break the connection rather than short circuit direct.

That said, a bunch of Ilg's have their original capacitors. They were truly quality back then, but like anything, they can fail.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 02:04 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote:
Don't quote me on it, but I believe new capacitors break the connection rather than short circuit direct.

That said, a bunch of Ilg's have their original capacitors. They were truly quality back then, but like anything, they can fail.

Hey, Andrew - Don't quote me, either, but I would be willing to place a fair amount of hard earned cash on a bet that the capacitor in mine was original. 


 I suppose the moral here is that if I were to find a used but running ILG, it wouldn't be a bad idea to change the capacitor! 


I have been phoning shops about rewinding. As you might imagine, getting an estimate is pretty difficult, but I have found a shop an hour from here that can probably do it, so I'll take it over there to have them look at it. 


Would anyone care to hazard a guess of what would be a reasonable price for rewinding the fields? $400-500, say? 

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 01:54 am
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David Allen
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Gregory Merrick wrote:Andrew Block wrote:
Don't quote me on it, but I believe new capacitors break the connection rather than short circuit direct.

That said, a bunch of Ilg's have their original capacitors. They were truly quality back then, but like anything, they can fail.

Hey, Andrew - Don't quote me, either, but I would be willing to place a fair amount of hard earned cash on a bet that the capacitor in mine was original. 


 I suppose the moral here is that if I were to find a used but running ILG, it wouldn't be a bad idea to change the capacitor! 


I have been phoning shops about rewinding. As you might imagine, getting an estimate is pretty difficult, but I have found a shop an hour from here that can probably do it, so I'll take it over there to have them look at it. 


Would anyone care to hazard a guess of what would be a reasonable price for rewinding the fields? $400-500, say? 

Hi Gregory!  Andrew and I have worked together on these fans quite a lot. They are a work of art and a great feat of engineering.

The old style capacitors tend to short circuit and fail to produce the correct phase-shifted power to the motor's auxiliary winding. This causes the motor to draw very high amps until it is burned out.  Newer capacitors are designed to fail open-circuit, and stop the current altogether. This causes the motor to stall out or fail to start - obvious signs that will cause you to notice and stop the motor; or it will cause the motor protector to trip if there is one.

Here is another 423 which I got from Andrew. This one is a daily runner in my workshop.
 


And then for those who love the startup sounds, the mighty 48W started across the line on a rotary converter:


The Ilg fans have a real following since there's nothing that compares to them.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 02:52 am
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Gregory Merrick
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David Allen wrote: Gregory Merrick wrote:Andrew Block wrote:
Don't quote me on it, but I believe new capacitors break the connection rather than short circuit direct.

That said, a bunch of Ilg's have their original capacitors. They were truly quality back then, but like anything, they can fail.

Hey, Andrew - Don't quote me, either, but I would be willing to place a fair amount of hard earned cash on a bet that the capacitor in mine was original. 

 I suppose the moral here is that if I were to find a used but running ILG, it wouldn't be a bad idea to change the capacitor! 

I have been phoning shops about rewinding. As you might imagine, getting an estimate is pretty difficult, but I have found a shop an hour from here that can probably do it, so I'll take it over there to have them look at it. 

Would anyone care to hazard a guess of what would be a reasonable price for rewinding the fields? $400-500, say? 

Hi Gregory!  Andrew and I have worked together on these fans quite a lot. They are a work of art and a great feat of engineering.

The old style capacitors tend to short circuit and fail to produce the correct phase-shifted power to the motor's auxiliary winding. This causes the motor to draw very high amps until it is burned out.  Newer capacitors are designed to fail open-circuit, and stop the current altogether. This causes the motor to stall out or fail to start - obvious signs that will cause you to notice and stop the motor; or it will cause the motor protector to trip if there is one.

Here is another 423 which I got from Andrew. This one is a daily runner in my workshop.
 
And then for those who love the startup sounds, the mighty 48W started across the line on a rotary converter:

The Ilg fans have a real following since there's nothing that compares to them.


Hey, David! Boy but there is a lot of quoting two guys who said they don't want to be quoted! :D  

The more I deal with the Ilg, the more I see what you are talking about. Just handling the components communicates the quality and commitment of the builders. I have always loved the fan, but I never dug much deeper. As long as it ran, it was good. 

About ten years ago, a group of Mercedes 600 owners (I'm talking about the tour-de-force hand built limo that Daimler-Benz began producinmg in the mid sixties) convened at my building. Two owners forgot their cars for a while and stood in awe of the fan. It amused me then. I understand it now. They were really pleased with it.

Thanks for that info. If I understand you, a modern capacitor failure can still cause problems if you don't see that it has happened? My fans run throughout the night to keep the building cool, and I am not really paying that much attention most of the time they are running. 

I was fascinated by the first of the two vids, watching you tackle problems that make mine seem so simple. Now that my motor is rebuilt and on its way back to me I am tackling painting the components - handling them in the spray booth is a small challenge - and then building a door to mount the frame so that I can insulate more easily in the winter. In Wisconsin, depending on a shutter to keep -25º outside is a joke! My method has been to remove one protective cage section, remove the propellor and slide it out, then fill the 16" hole with insulating material. Robert Avery suggested the door approach and I think it's a winner.

Question: the propellor slides onto the shaft and uses a set screw to hold it in place on the shaft. It's not really a press fit, but once set it takes a fair amount of leverage from the back to move it off the shaft. After seeing the seizing on yours, do you recommend any kind of lubrication on the shaft before mounting the fan? As I understand it, the prop is not trying to come off the shaft when running. 

Thanks for your reply and also for the vids. You guys are a great help! 

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 05:44 am
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Andrew Block
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I'm not sure how handy you are, but my idea would be to mount the whole fan on a frame that is hinged. Life it up, slide some foamboard behind it and call it a day. Just my thought.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 06:09 am
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Charlie Forster
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If the cap looks leaky or bulges replace it!
 Good luck getting it  running again.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 02:05 pm
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David Allen
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Gregory Merrick wrote: David Allen wrote: Gregory Merrick wrote:Andrew Block wrote:
Don't quote me on it, but I believe new capacitors break the connection rather than short circuit direct.

That said, a bunch of Ilg's have their original capacitors. They were truly quality back then, but like anything, they can fail.

Hey, Andrew - Don't quote me, either, but I would be willing to place a fair amount of hard earned cash on a bet that the capacitor in mine was original. 

 I suppose the moral here is that if I were to find a used but running ILG, it wouldn't be a bad idea to change the capacitor! 

I have been phoning shops about rewinding. As you might imagine, getting an estimate is pretty difficult, but I have found a shop an hour from here that can probably do it, so I'll take it over there to have them look at it. 

Would anyone care to hazard a guess of what would be a reasonable price for rewinding the fields? $400-500, say? 

Hi Gregory!  Andrew and I have worked together on these fans quite a lot. They are a work of art and a great feat of engineering.

The old style capacitors tend to short circuit and fail to produce the correct phase-shifted power to the motor's auxiliary winding. This causes the motor to draw very high amps until it is burned out.  Newer capacitors are designed to fail open-circuit, and stop the current altogether. This causes the motor to stall out or fail to start - obvious signs that will cause you to notice and stop the motor; or it will cause the motor protector to trip if there is one.

Here is another 423 which I got from Andrew. This one is a daily runner in my workshop.
 
And then for those who love the startup sounds, the mighty 48W started across the line on a rotary converter:

The Ilg fans have a real following since there's nothing that compares to them.


Hey, David! Boy but there is a lot of quoting two guys who said they don't want to be quoted! :D  

The more I deal with the Ilg, the more I see what you are talking about. Just handling the components communicates the quality and commitment of the builders. I have always loved the fan, but I never dug much deeper. As long as it ran, it was good. 

About ten years ago, a group of Mercedes 600 owners (I'm talking about the tour-de-force hand built limo that Daimler-Benz began producinmg in the mid sixties) convened at my building. Two owners forgot their cars for a while and stood in awe of the fan. It amused me then. I understand it now. They were really pleased with it.

Thanks for that info. If I understand you, a modern capacitor failure can still cause problems if you don't see that it has happened? My fans run throughout the night to keep the building cool, and I am not really paying that much attention most of the time they are running. 

I was fascinated by the first of the two vids, watching you tackle problems that make mine seem so simple. Now that my motor is rebuilt and on its way back to me I am tackling painting the components - handling them in the spray booth is a small challenge - and then building a door to mount the frame so that I can insulate more easily in the winter. In Wisconsin, depending on a shutter to keep -25º outside is a joke! My method has been to remove one protective cage section, remove the propellor and slide it out, then fill the 16" hole with insulating material. Robert Avery suggested the door approach and I think it's a winner.

Question: the propellor slides onto the shaft and uses a set screw to hold it in place on the shaft. It's not really a press fit, but once set it takes a fair amount of leverage from the back to move it off the shaft. After seeing the seizing on yours, do you recommend any kind of lubrication on the shaft before mounting the fan? As I understand it, the prop is not trying to come off the shaft when running. 

Thanks for your reply and also for the vids. You guys are a great help! 

Interesting about the Mercedes 600 convention. I know the type of people who are devoted to keeping such a high quality and highly complex car on the road, after all these years, would really have an eye for good engineering and build quality. The fact that they noticed it speaks volumes!

I've had a lot of very fascinated visitors with my large Ilg fans, and the big Sturtevant fan and blower. People stop in their tracks when they see these machines! The quiet power seems to "blow them away" literally and figuratively! 

As for the blade hub mounting to the motor shaft, yes I would definitely use anti-seize lubricant on the parts. This will prevent corrosion from setting in and causing the hub to get stuck.

Another important point is the location of the setscrew. This can put a bur on the shaft which makes it very difficult to remove.  Due to the design of these, the blade should always go back to the same place on the shaft. You can see a mark where the setscrew digs into the shaft.  Carefully file a flat spot there. The setscrew will bite into the shaft in this recessed, flat area. This way, the bur will be below the surface and will not gouge into the hub bore as the hub is removed.

Yes, the capacitor failing either open or short can hurt the motor, but failing shorted can hurt the motor a lot quicker than failing open. Either way, you should have a motor protection device in place. Once the fan is back together and working correctly, measure the motor's running current. Select an overload protector for about 120% of the measured running current. This should help to protect the motor in the event of a capacitor failure or any other problem that keeps it from running safely.

Andrew Block wrote:I'm not sure how handy you are, but my idea would be to mount the whole fan on a frame that is hinged. Life it up, slide some foamboard behind it and call it a day. Just my thought. 

This seems like a very good idea. The fan would not need to hinge back very far, just enough to allow the foam board to slide in and be clamped in place.

As for the rest of the story on why I always quote so much in forum posts.... It's my habit because I've been burned before, so to speak. So I guess this can be seen as a cautionary tale. 

Some people are looking for a reason to feel as if they are being attacked, and then go on the defensive. This leads to drama and BS and a lot of wasted time and hurt feelings. I really hate drama and try to avoid it, even when it may not be my fault in the first place.

The situation that's got me more than once is like this - Someone asks a question, and there are quite a few replies before I see the thread and begin participating. During the early replies, there was some questionable advice given that I didn't read or notice. 

I make a reply to the original question, and give different advice than what someone has already said. Again, not seeing that there has already been conflicting advice, but because I only read and replied to the original question.  

I always quote to be sure the context is clear, so that nobody unnecessarily gets their panties in a wad. Again, it's just a habit I'm in; not that I see someone in this thread that I'm worried about. Hope this explains why quoting is a good thing, even though it makes for a lot more wordy post.  :D




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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 04:14 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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David Allen wrote: .
Gregory Merrick wrote: David Allen wrote: Gregory Merrick wrote:Andrew Block wrote:
Don't quote me on it, but I believe new capacitors break the connection rather than short circuit direct....

Hey, Andrew - Don't quote me, either, but I would be willing to place a fair amount of hard earned cash on a bet that the capacitor in mine was original...

Hi Gregory!  Andrew and I have worked together on these fans quite a lot. They are a work of art and a great feat of engineering.

The old style capacitors tend to short circuit and fail to produce the correct phase-shifted power to the motor's auxiliary winding. This causes the motor to draw very high amps until it is burned out.  Newer capacitors are designed to fail open-circuit, and stop the current altogether. This causes the motor to stall out or fail to start - obvious signs that will cause you to notice and stop the motor; or it will cause the motor protector to trip if there is one....

The Ilg fans have a real following since there's nothing that compares to them.


Hey, David! Boy but there is a lot of quoting two guys who said they don't want to be quoted! :D  

The more I deal with the Ilg, the more I see what you are talking about. Just handling the components communicates the quality and commitment of the builders. I have always loved the fan, but I never dug much deeper. As long as it ran, it was good. 

About ten years ago, a group of Mercedes 600 owners (I'm talking about the tour-de-force hand built limo that Daimler-Benz began producinmg in the mid sixties) convened at my building. Two owners forgot their cars for a while and stood in awe of the fan. It amused me then. I understand it now. They were really pleased with it.

Thanks for that info. If I understand you, a modern capacitor failure can still cause problems if you don't see that it has happened? My fans run throughout the night to keep the building cool, and I am not really paying that much attention most of the time they are running. 

I was fascinated by the first of the two vids, watching you tackle problems that make mine seem so simple. Now that my motor is rebuilt and on its way back to me I am tackling painting the components - handling them in the spray booth is a small challenge - and then building a door to mount the frame so that I can insulate more easily in the winter. In Wisconsin, depending on a shutter to keep -25º outside is a joke! My method has been to remove one protective cage section, remove the propellor and slide it out, then fill the 16" hole with insulating material. Robert Avery suggested the door approach and I think it's a winner.

Question: the propellor slides onto the shaft and uses a set screw to hold it in place on the shaft. It's not really a press fit, but once set it takes a fair amount of leverage from the back to move it off the shaft. After seeing the seizing on yours, do you recommend any kind of lubrication on the shaft before mounting the fan? As I understand it, the prop is not trying to come off the shaft when running. 

Thanks for your reply and also for the vids. You guys are a great help! 

Interesting about the Mercedes 600 convention. I know the type of people who are devoted to keeping such a high quality and highly complex car on the road, after all these years, would really have an eye for good engineering and build quality. The fact that they noticed it speaks volumes!

I've had a lot of very fascinated visitors with my large Ilg fans, and the big Sturtevant fan and blower. People stop in their tracks when they see these machines! The quiet power seems to "blow them away" literally and figuratively! 

As for the blade hub mounting to the motor shaft, yes I would definitely use anti-seize lubricant on the parts. This will prevent corrosion from setting in and causing the hub to get stuck.

Another important point is the location of the setscrew. This can put a bur on the shaft which makes it very difficult to remove.  Due to the design of these, the blade should always go back to the same place on the shaft. You can see a mark where the setscrew digs into the shaft.  Carefully file a flat spot there. The setscrew will bite into the shaft in this recessed, flat area. This way, the bur will be below the surface and will not gouge into the hub bore as the hub is removed.

Yes, the capacitor failing either open or short can hurt the motor, but failing shorted can hurt the motor a lot quicker than failing open. Either way, you should have a motor protection device in place. Once the fan is back together and working correctly, measure the motor's running current. Select an overload protector for about 120% of the measured running current. This should help to protect the motor in the event of a capacitor failure or any other problem that keeps it from running safely.

Andrew Block wrote:I'm not sure how handy you are, but my idea would be to mount the whole fan on a frame that is hinged. Life it up, slide some foamboard behind it and call it a day. Just my thought. 

This seems like a very good idea. The fan would not need to hinge back very far, just enough to allow the foam board to slide in and be clamped in place.

As for the rest of the story on why I always quote so much in forum posts.... It's my habit because I've been burned before, so to speak. So I guess this can be seen as a cautionary tale. 

Some people are looking for a reason to feel as if they are being attacked, and then go on the defensive. This leads to drama and BS and a lot of wasted time and hurt feelings. I really hate drama and try to avoid it, even when it may not be my fault in the first place.

The situation that's got me more than once is like this - Someone asks a question, and there are quite a few replies before I see the thread and begin participating. During the early replies, there was some questionable advice given that I didn't read or notice. 

I make a reply to the original question, and give different advice than what someone has already said. Again, not seeing that there has already been conflicting advice, but because I only read and replied to the original question.  

I always quote to be sure the context is clear, so that nobody unnecessarily gets their panties in a wad. Again, it's just a habit I'm in; not that I see someone in this thread that I'm worried about. Hope this explains why quoting is a good thing, even though it makes for a lot more wordy post.  :D






David, beginning with your last statement: I fault no one for extensive quoting, although there have been times - on some forums - where a huge bank of large photos are repeatedly reproduced in order to say "Looks great" and "Beautiful"... :hammer:  But even that is better than some guy's replying to a long thread with an "Oh, definitely" when contrary opinions are being slung about.

Thanks for that information on lubing the shaft and on the burr kicked up by the set screw. I should have mentioned that the shaft on my fan has a machined flat along its length. If I understand you correctly, I don't need to do any more filing, but I will use an anti-seize when I put it back together.


The 21" fan is hardly huge - less than half the size of your larger fans, and so I can readily understand how people can become fascinated by the big ones. Darn it, I am now developing a taste to find a 48 for a project in the building. How did this happen to me? The perfect spot, up there in the left hand corner where a six foot wide arched window was removed. 



Speaking of fans, does anyone have any interest in the two Modines hanging in that room? I have two or three more stored away in the building.

Andrew - Fan frame mounted on a hinged door is the plan. It needs to open far enough so that I can reach through the 16" thick brick wall to clean the shutter periodically. This will also be a great aid in the summer, on the rare occasions that we run the A/C during a heat wave. It never looks great to have the fan swathed in blankets to keep the cold in. 

And now to figure out what a motor protection device is and where it goes.  :D





Last edited on Mon Aug 6th, 2018 04:16 pm by Gregory Merrick

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 04:22 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Charlie Forster wrote: If the cap looks leaky or bulges replace it!
 Good luck getting it  running again.

Hey Charlie, thanks for the good luck!


The only problem with detecting a leaky or bulgy capacitor is that it is well hidden under the dome. Something I could easily enough look at twice a year, but not something that catches the eye without effort. But I will remember the warning signs. Thanks!

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 04:41 pm
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Andrew Block
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Gregory Merrick wrote: Charlie Forster wrote: If the cap looks leaky or bulges replace it!
 Good luck getting it  running again.

Hey Charlie, thanks for the good luck!


The only problem with detecting a leaky or bulgy capacitor is that it is well hidden under the dome. Something I could easily enough look at twice a year, but not something that catches the eye without effort. But I will remember the warning signs. Thanks!

Dave would certainly be the expert on protection but I'd think a simple fuse holder like below with a properly sized fuse would be appropriate for this application. 

I would think that Billy would provide you with an appropriate capacitor which should last quite a few years. Like I said, I have seen lots of fans with the original capacitors that work perfectly. For me, in my experience, the worst thing you can do to a capacitor is not use it. I once got a lot of about 14 Emerson desk fans from an old building that had been condemned after a hurricane. The fans were likely out of service a good decade prior so a total time of about 20 years not being powered up and while almost all of them worked off the bat, those seemed to fail one by one from disuse. When I found a NOS Emerson from the 50's, I replaced it with a ceiling fan capacitor just as a preventative measure. 

But long story short (too late!), I think you will get several, if not many, years of good service out of the new capacitor on the rewound motor.

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwj95Kjr7djcAhUID2kKHQMnDoIYABASGgJpcQ&sig=AOD64_0NDakqmfRQZDT8sb2ubFTVO6OvGg&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwjlraHr7djcAhUB0KwKHYGnBRIQ9aACCDE&adurl=

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 04:59 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: Gregory Merrick wrote: Charlie Forster wrote: If the cap looks leaky or bulges replace it!
 Good luck getting it  running again.

Hey Charlie, thanks for the good luck!


The only problem with detecting a leaky or bulgy capacitor is that it is well hidden under the dome. Something I could easily enough look at twice a year, but not something that catches the eye without effort. But I will remember the warning signs. Thanks!

Dave would certainly be the expert on protection but I'd think a simple fuse holder like below with a properly sized fuse would be appropriate for this application. 

I would think that Billy would provide you with an appropriate capacitor which should last quite a few years. Like I said, I have seen lots of fans with the original capacitors that work perfectly. For me, in my experience, the worst thing you can do to a capacitor is not use it. I once got a lot of about 14 Emerson desk fans from an old building that had been condemned after a hurricane. The fans were likely out of service a good decade prior so a total time of about 20 years not being powered up and while almost all of them worked off the bat, those seemed to fail one by one from disuse. When I found a NOS Emerson from the 50's, I replaced it with a ceiling fan capacitor just as a preventative measure. 

But long story short (too late!), I think you will get several, if not many, years of good service out of the new capacitor on the rewound motor.

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwj95Kjr7djcAhUID2kKHQMnDoIYABASGgJpcQ&sig=AOD64_0NDakqmfRQZDT8sb2ubFTVO6OvGg&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwjlraHr7djcAhUB0KwKHYGnBRIQ9aACCDE&adurl=


Thanks, Andrew. I am sure Billy did provide a good capacitor, and that fuse holder looks like a great idea, a cure for Capacitor Destabilization Paranoia Syndrome. 

That unit you linked to: it just replaces the cover and switch of the existing 2¼" electrical box? 


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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 05:43 pm
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Andrew Block
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It does fit in a standard electrical box. I have a few of them somewhere in my shop I picked up at a surplus auction. I have a Ilg 483 that will be going back into service soon and intended to use one of those to protect it in the case of an issue with the motor.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 06:27 pm
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David Allen
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.
Gregory Merrick wrote:



David, beginning with your last statement: I fault no one for extensive quoting, although there have been times - on some forums - where a huge bank of large photos are repeatedly reproduced in order to say "Looks great" and "Beautiful"... :hammer:  But even that is better than some guy's replying to a long thread with an "Oh, definitely" when contrary opinions are being slung about.



Thanks for that information on lubing the shaft and on the burr kicked up by the set screw. I should have mentioned that the shaft on my fan has a machined flat along its length. If I understand you correctly, I don't need to do any more filing, but I will use an anti-seize when I put it back together.




The 21" fan is hardly huge - less than half the size of your larger fans, and so I can readily understand how people can become fascinated by the big ones. Darn it, I am now developing a taste to find a 48 for a project in the building. How did this happen to me? The perfect spot, up there in the left hand corner where a six foot wide arched window was removed. 



Speaking of fans, does anyone have any interest in the two Modines hanging in that room? I have two or three more stored away in the building.



Andrew - Fan frame mounted on a hinged door is the plan. It needs to open far enough so that I can reach through the 16" thick brick wall to clean the shutter periodically. This will also be a great aid in the summer, on the rare occasions that we run the A/C during a heat wave. It never looks great to have the fan swathed in blankets to keep the cold in. 



And now to figure out what a motor protection device is and where it goes.  :D








LOL at people who quote 5 pages of pictures over and over! That is a little irritating... and it's so easy to just delete the pictures out of the quote. :)

Are those Modine heaters steam powered or electric?

Yeah, if you've already got the flat on the shaft, no need to file another one!

As for the motor protector, you could replace the switch with something like this. I see Andrew posted a link but it is not opening for me for some reason, so if this is the same thing, sorry for the duplication!



Here is a link to that page:
http://www.galco.com/buy/ABB/MSSP1-T1P

As you can see, these are in the form of a regular looking switch. If the motor develops an overcurrent condition, the switch will trip off by its self.

These are calibrated by a "heater" which is interchangeable for the size of the motor in use. You would take the nameplate running current (or measured running current under known-good conditions) and order the appropriate heater.

The heater has to be sized for the actual amps based on the motor connections. So, if you are running on 110V, the rated running current is 2.2 amps. This heater would be a good one to have: http://www.galco.com/buy/ABB/MSSP-P19

Internally, there is a ratchet which causes the switch to "snap" into the on or off positions when you move the handle. The ratchet wheel is mounted on a shaft which is locked into a sleeve by solder. If the solder melts, the shaft turns freely, allowing the ratchet wheel to rotate and thereby release the switch from the ON position. After it cools, the solder solidifies and it can be reset again and again.




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Thomas Peters
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Why bother quoting paragraphs or photographs at all?
A simple reference to a post number would do the trick.

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Gregory Merrick
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 Dear Sir: You must be a technical writer... or a reader of legal documents.  :D

Last edited on Mon Aug 6th, 2018 09:48 pm by Gregory Merrick

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David Allen wrote: Are those Modine heaters steam powered or electric?

Steam heat, electric fans. 

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Gregory Merrick
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David Allen wrote:
.


Here is a link to that page:
http://www.galco.com/buy/ABB/MSSP1-T1P

As you can see, these are in the form of a regular looking switch. If the motor develops an overcurrent condition, the switch will trip off by its self.

These are calibrated by a "heater" which is interchangeable for the size of the motor in use. You would take the nameplate running current (or measured running current under known-good conditions) and order the appropriate heater.

The heater has to be sized for the actual amps based on the motor connections. So, if you are running on 110V, the rated running current is 2.2 amps. This heater would be a good one to have: http://www.galco.com/buy/ABB/MSSP-P19

Internally, there is a ratchet which causes the switch to "snap" into the on or off positions when you move the handle. The ratchet wheel is mounted on a shaft which is locked into a sleeve by solder. If the solder melts, the shaft turns freely, allowing the ratchet wheel to rotate and thereby release the switch from the ON position. After it cools, the solder solidifies and it can be reset again and again.






David, that is a beautiful and elaborate but expensive switch. Are the cheaper versions - Graingers is $20 something and Home Depot sells even cheaper units - only good for making you feel better, or will they actually protect the motor? 

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David Allen
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Gregory Merrick wrote: David Allen wrote:

.




Here is a link to that page:

http://www.galco.com/buy/ABB/MSSP1-T1P



As you can see, these are in the form of a regular looking switch. If the motor develops an overcurrent condition, the switch will trip off by its self.



These are calibrated by a "heater" which is interchangeable for the size of the motor in use. You would take the nameplate running current (or measured running current under known-good conditions) and order the appropriate heater.



The heater has to be sized for the actual amps based on the motor connections. So, if you are running on 110V, the rated running current is 2.2 amps. This heater would be a good one to have: http://www.galco.com/buy/ABB/MSSP-P19



Internally, there is a ratchet which causes the switch to "snap" into the on or off positions when you move the handle. The ratchet wheel is mounted on a shaft which is locked into a sleeve by solder. If the solder melts, the shaft turns freely, allowing the ratchet wheel to rotate and thereby release the switch from the ON position. After it cools, the solder solidifies and it can be reset again and again.













David, that is a beautiful and elaborate but expensive switch. Are the cheaper versions - Graingers is $20 something and Home Depot sells even cheaper units - only good for making you feel better, or will they actually protect the motor? 


Gregory; those other switches will not protect a motor because they don't offer low current / time delayed tripping as the dedicated motor protector offers. 


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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 02:28 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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David Allen wrote: Gregory Merrick wrote: David Allen wrote:

.




Here is a link to that page:

http://www.galco.com/buy/ABB/MSSP1-T1P



As you can see, these are in the form of a regular looking switch. If the motor develops an overcurrent condition, the switch will trip off by its self.



These are calibrated by a "heater" which is interchangeable for the size of the motor in use. You would take the nameplate running current (or measured running current under known-good conditions) and order the appropriate heater.



The heater has to be sized for the actual amps based on the motor connections. So, if you are running on 110V, the rated running current is 2.2 amps. This heater would be a good one to have: http://www.galco.com/buy/ABB/MSSP-P19



Internally, there is a ratchet which causes the switch to "snap" into the on or off positions when you move the handle. The ratchet wheel is mounted on a shaft which is locked into a sleeve by solder. If the solder melts, the shaft turns freely, allowing the ratchet wheel to rotate and thereby release the switch from the ON position. After it cools, the solder solidifies and it can be reset again and again.













David, that is a beautiful and elaborate but expensive switch. Are the cheaper versions - Graingers is $20 something and Home Depot sells even cheaper units - only good for making you feel better, or will they actually protect the motor? 


Gregory; those other switches will not protect a motor because they don't offer low current / time delayed tripping as the dedicated motor protector offers. 



David, does that mean that the less expensive switches are made to respond to a direct short but not to an increase in amperage that a failing capacitor might create? Sorry I am not better versed in electrical issues! 

Last edited on Tue Aug 7th, 2018 02:28 pm by Gregory Merrick

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