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1,000lbs of cast iron swinging in the air.  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 02:40 pm
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Andrew Block
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I've been away for awhile working on some professional matters but am back in town to take care of some things.

Many years ago, while I was "into fans," my parents never really understood the appeal of windmakers but some of the coolest fans I ever saw were the exhaust fans in my high school gymnasium. They were my first brush with the Ilg Q-blade fans and probably set forth my interest in these.



A few months ago, I got a letter from my high school requesting donations to finance a renovation of their "athletic center." Now back in my day we called it the "gym" but on a hunch, I checked out the filed plans, which included renderings. I noticed that there was a new mural on the wall and the fans were not present in the drawing. On a hunch, I swung by and talked to the contractors. They told me the intention was for the fans to be removed and stored for later use but to talk to the school. I went to the administration and finally got to the guy who was in charge and he was like, "If you want them, you can have them." I then coordinated with the contractor who told me they were intending to wait until the end to take them out, because it gets really hot in that building and the AC units would not be put online until the floors were installed and finished due to dust. So I had some time.

I was back in town and decided to take a swing by last Friday and was horrified to see that they were working on the exterior of the building where the fans were. I went in and saw 2 of them in a pile, having been cut up with a Sawzall. The contractor apologized and explained that when they were tearing up the slab and accidentally cut the feeder lines to the fans and the higher ups decided to move forward in bricking up the exterior of the building sooner than originally thought. He told me he'd stop his guys from touching the two remaining fans and let me figure out a means to remove them, as long as I did it within 3 days. The other fans were cut up so badly (motor shafts cut to remove blades, etc) that they were useless. I did save one spare blade to make something out of. This is shown in relation to a Emerson 77648 blade.



So now I had to figure out how to remove the others. Weighing in at close to 500lbs and being 25+ feet in the air, it was an interesting prospect. I enlisted the help of Matthew O'Neill and my contractor who brought some of his guys.


Luckily we had a scissor lift with a working capacity of 550lbs and a heavy piece of rope. After debating a few methods (including cutting the struts to remove the motor and blade. The unfortunately thing about the design of these fans is the blade is slightly larger than the frame for aerodynamic purposes, and in order to remove the blade, you have to unbolt the motor and as you're pulling the motor out the back of the fan, you slide the blade off forward and then remove it between the struts. We decided the best way is to secure it with the rope and have one guy unscrewing the nuts holding the frame on the inside and 2 others holding the bolts from the outside. Then, 2 of us would lower it with the rope while the guy on the lift guided it down.

First we removed the cages to reduce the weight and allow us to tie to the struts.


The system worked well, and with some scary swinging of a large piece of cast iron:





These fans are very, very back heavy. The motor is probably in the realm of 250lbs and the blade only 125 (I weighed this) and they once disconnected from the wall, they would spin around. The second one flipped and fell on the lift, scaring the crap out of the guy on the lift, which rocked more than I'd like. But we got them both down.




Last edited on Tue May 9th, 2017 02:41 pm by Andrew Block

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 02:55 pm
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Andrew Block
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But we survived. No deaths, no injuries. It took 4 of us to muscle these out on a cart, down the ramp and into my truck.


Since these take up ALOT of space, and I wanted to eventually get one of them running, I had to build a stand. I wasn't going to take it out of the truck to do it so I built around it. I used 2x4's and 1" plywood for support.




And luckily, it held. This is in my warehouse now, waiting on a frequency drive to arrive. According to David, its rare to find 110v VFD because they really don't make many 110v 3 phase motors. This fan is a 1.5 HP motor that runs on 110v 3phase @ 16.6amps. If you wire it 208, you can use it on 1 phase @ 8.8 and 3 phase at 9.6amps. Its also unusual for it to use less amps on 1 phase. It likely has something to do with the design of the converter, which is essentially capacitors and a relay to start.


Stay tuned for the ultimate garage and shop fan.

Last edited on Tue May 9th, 2017 02:55 pm by Andrew Block

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 03:09 pm
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David Allen
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Hey Andrew - those are GREAT saves, especially since they came from your highschool gym. Can't wait to see them in person and help getting one up and running!


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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 03:14 pm
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Andrew Block
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David Allen wrote: Hey Andrew - those are GREAT saves, especially since they came from your highschool gym. Can't wait to see them in person and help getting one up and running!



Yeah, they have some sentimental value in the respect of where they came from and I think that was partially why they elected to let me have them (plus I absolved them of any damage or injury resulting from the removal process, so that helped).

I'd like to publicly give you a big shout out and thank you for your help. Your methodical and logical approach to motor repair has been invaluable.

These things are definitely not messing around at 26,000cfm @ 490rpm.

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 04:24 pm
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Don Tener
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Great save. Did you get the louvers also?

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 04:40 pm
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Andrew Block
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Don Tener wrote: Great save. Did you get the louvers also?
I did not. The original louvers were replaced about 5-6 years ago with new Dayton manufactured units. They were fairly low quality aluminum units and many of them were bent up and did not seal well. They were certainly not of the quality of the original units, which lasted 50+ years before finally being deemed worn enough to replace. The originals were a heavy aluminum leaf pressed on a bronze rod and set in a iron frame. They are VERY heavy and well made. I have a NOS 30" shutter that must weigh over 100lbs.

This is those fans running with the original louvers.

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 04:50 pm
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David Allen
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Andrew Block wrote: David Allen wrote: Hey Andrew - those are GREAT saves, especially since they came from your highschool gym. Can't wait to see them in person and help getting one up and running!







Yeah, they have some sentimental value in the respect of where they came from and I think that was partially why they elected to let me have them (plus I absolved them of any damage or injury resulting from the removal process, so that helped).



I'd like to publicly give you a big shout out and thank you for your help. Your methodical and logical approach to motor repair has been invaluable.



These things are definitely not messing around at 26,000cfm @ 490rpm.


No Doubt!  That's a lot of air.

Not sure what the CFM of the bucket-blade 48" is, but mine will turn my large barn into a wind tunnel with ease. The Q blade is surely more efficient.....

I'm glad to help and encourage!

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 04:58 pm
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Andrew Block
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David Allen wrote: Andrew Block wrote: David Allen wrote: Hey Andrew - those are GREAT saves, especially since they came from your highschool gym. Can't wait to see them in person and help getting one up and running!







Yeah, they have some sentimental value in the respect of where they came from and I think that was partially why they elected to let me have them (plus I absolved them of any damage or injury resulting from the removal process, so that helped).



I'd like to publicly give you a big shout out and thank you for your help. Your methodical and logical approach to motor repair has been invaluable.



These things are definitely not messing around at 26,000cfm @ 490rpm.


No Doubt!  That's a lot of air.

Not sure what the CFM of the bucket-blade 48" is, but mine will turn my large barn into a wind tunnel with ease. The Q blade is surely more efficient.....

I'm glad to help and encourage!

Per 1930's ad, the 48" W blade pushes 18,400CFM.

Attached Image (viewed 539 times):

ilgfanad.jpg

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 05:07 pm
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David Allen
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Andrew Block wrote: David Allen wrote: Andrew Block wrote: David Allen wrote: Hey Andrew - those are GREAT saves, especially since they came from your highschool gym. Can't wait to see them in person and help getting one up and running!















Yeah, they have some sentimental value in the respect of where they came from and I think that was partially why they elected to let me have them (plus I absolved them of any damage or injury resulting from the removal process, so that helped).







I'd like to publicly give you a big shout out and thank you for your help. Your methodical and logical approach to motor repair has been invaluable.







These things are definitely not messing around at 26,000cfm @ 490rpm.





No Doubt!  That's a lot of air.



Not sure what the CFM of the bucket-blade 48" is, but mine will turn my large barn into a wind tunnel with ease. The Q blade is surely more efficient.....



I'm glad to help and encourage!



Per 1930's ad, the 48" W blade pushes 18,400CFM.


You got all the cool documents! :)

That's interesting since they have very similar motor HP ratings. Definitely explains why Ilg went to the extra trouble and expense to cast the Q blade as opposed to the stampings of the bucket-blade.


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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 05:26 pm
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Trevor Soundararajan
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Bro, I feel like those need to be spinning slowly in an abandoned warehouse.  You know, during an action packed fight scene.

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 05:31 pm
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David Allen
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Trevor Soundararajan wrote: Bro, I feel like those need to be spinning slowly in an abandoned warehouse.  You know, during an action packed fight scene.
Just so long as they don't get any bullet holes! :cry:

Those fans typically spin slowly for decades and then can still come to life just like nothing was done.

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 06:40 pm
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Andrew Block
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David Allen wrote: Trevor Soundararajan wrote: Bro, I feel like those need to be spinning slowly in an abandoned warehouse.  You know, during an action packed fight scene.
Just so long as they don't get any bullet holes! :cry:

Those fans typically spin slowly for decades and then can still come to life just like nothing was done.

Actually the 42" type W has a bullet hole in one blade. Those came from a bowling alley which was in a not-so-great neighborhood.

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 08:17 pm
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David Allen
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Andrew Block wrote: Actually the 42" type W has a bullet hole in one blade. Those came from a bowling alley which was in a not-so-great neighborhood.

LOL that must not have been a good neighborhood! 

Bullet holes are pretty easy to fix though. Just tap them back down and skim it with Bondo.

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 08:19 pm
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Andrew Block
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David Allen wrote:Bullet holes are pretty easy to fix though. Just tap them back down and skim it with Bondo.

I'll probably just let it stay. Adds character!

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 08:31 pm
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David Foster
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I am amazed at your determination! Your story really conveyed how difficult and downright scary it was, taking the fans down. 

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 08:48 pm
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Andrew Block
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David Foster wrote: I am amazed at your determination! Your story really conveyed how difficult and downright scary it was, taking the fans down.
Thanks, I wish I had more pics but I was the one holding the rope!

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 09:03 pm
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Dan Foley
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That's disappointing to hear about those other fans being chopped up, but at least you were able to save two of them! Now you'll just have to grab a 72".

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 09:06 pm
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Andrew Block
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Dan Foley wrote: That's disappointing to hear about those other fans being chopped up, but at least you were able to save two of them! Now you'll just have to grab a 72".
It was. There was some mistake with my contact info so no one got in touch with me. It is a shame but I really don't have room (or use) for these. I have 6 42" fans as it is. There was another building that they took 4 48" models out and left them on the street for scrappers.

There is one more building with 4 48" models that likely will be removed sometime. I'm going to try for those.

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 09:56 pm
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Gary Hagan
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There is no such thing as 110 3P power in the United States. I cannot speak for other places in the world. Whether the source be wye or delta 110 volts is derived from a phase to neutral single pole connection.



Careful wiring that thing up man!

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 10:01 pm
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Andrew Block
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I'm barely qualified to plug things in. I'm just going by the tag.

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 11:18 pm
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Gary Hagan
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Someone got into the sauce and mis stamped that bad boy! Maybe 16.6 amps single phase not 3ph though..

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 Posted: Tue May 9th, 2017 11:31 pm
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Dan Foley
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Andrew Block wrote: Dan Foley wrote: That's disappointing to hear about those other fans being chopped up, but at least you were able to save two of them! Now you'll just have to grab a 72".
It was. There was some mistake with my contact info so no one got in touch with me. It is a shame but I really don't have room (or use) for these. I have 6 42" fans as it is. There was another building that they took 4 48" models out and left them on the street for scrappers.

There is one more building with 4 48" models that likely will be removed sometime. I'm going to try for those.

Good luck with those other 48 inchers.  I haven't found any ILGs out in the wild around here, but eventually I'm hoping to locate something larger than my 16" unit.

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 Posted: Wed May 10th, 2017 12:06 am
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Evan Atkinson
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Man, those ILG's would make a killer whole-house fan!  Just gotta build the right box-frame/plenum for it and hope your attic has enough height.  I do wonder how the CFM rating on those compares to the new Dayton-made unit I bought back in 2010.  Undoubtedly the ILG is higher.

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 Posted: Wed May 10th, 2017 12:35 am
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David Allen
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Gary Hagan wrote: Someone got into the sauce and mis stamped that bad boy! Maybe 16.6 amps single phase not 3ph though..
Actually - the label is correct.

The fan motor is connected in wye configuration for the 208 (or 220V) configuration where it gets 3-phase utility power.

The motor is connected in delta configuration for the 110V configuration. In this configuration it gets 3-phase power from a static phase converter. The motor is getting 3-phase power at 110V but it is not provided by the utility as 3-phase.

When using utility 3-phase power, these motors have a very low power factor - in the range of .6 or so.  When used with the static phase converter, the capacitive (leading) power factor of the capacitors counteracts the inductive (lagging) power factor of the motor winding. Therefore the power factor is very good in this configuration.

Here is an explanatory video of the 110V 3-phase configuration:


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 Posted: Wed May 10th, 2017 01:32 am
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Andrew Block
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Evan Atkinson wrote: Man, those ILG's would make a killer whole-house fan!  Just gotta build the right box-frame/plenum for it and hope your attic has enough height.  I do wonder how the CFM rating on those compares to the new Dayton-made unit I bought back in 2010.  Undoubtedly the ILG is higher.
What is your Dayton rated at? The Ilg is either 28,300 or 23,300, depending on the year.

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 Posted: Wed May 10th, 2017 01:45 am
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Stan Adams
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Andrew that is super cool & you were able to save them from your school is icing on the cake. Krystle didn't seem to be impressed, but I think they are phenomenal! Great job!!!!

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 Posted: Wed May 10th, 2017 02:33 am
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Lucas Beshara
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This post had me on the edge of my seat!  They got tore down and scrapped...   Wait, There were 2 more!!!...  only 3 days to pull off the save!!!
Very cool stuff!  These ilg's amaze me also

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 Posted: Wed May 10th, 2017 05:02 am
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Evan Atkinson
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Wish I knew.  Unfortunately, lost all the info on that fan when the house was sold.  Was a belt-drive, 6-blade unit.  Believe Dayton was the brand-was sourced through Grainger.

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 Posted: Wed May 10th, 2017 05:28 am
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Andrew Block
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The Dayton 42" whole house fan moves 12,600 according to the specs. Its for a 3200sqft house.

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 Posted: Thu May 11th, 2017 02:44 am
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Gary Hagan
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A static phase converter is not providing a 3 phase 110v power source. The caps get the motor to full rpm then running on 2/3 power energizing only two of the three motor windings. 



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 Posted: Thu May 11th, 2017 09:15 am
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David Allen
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 Gary Hagan wrote: A static phase converter is not providing a 3 phase 110v power source. The caps get the motor to full rpm then running on 2/3 power energizing only two of the three motor windings. 








I'm sorry but this is not correct.

The static converter does indeed provide 3-phase power. The start capacitor adds more capacitance for startup. Then once the motor is up to speed, the run caps stay in the circuit. These caps, working in conjunction with the reactance of the winding, do indeed provide 3-phase power.


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 Posted: Thu May 11th, 2017 01:50 pm
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Gary Hagan
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Ha ha. Okay Dave!  You are obviously smarter than the average bear , very cool what you were able to make. For those interested in how these work check out the link below.


http://www.northamericaphaseconverters.com/blog/how-static-phase-converter-works/

This is a company that makes their living selling these devices.


Last edited on Thu May 11th, 2017 01:56 pm by Gary Hagan

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 Posted: Thu May 11th, 2017 04:16 pm
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Gary Hagan
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Another source of info with regard to de-rating to 2/3rds https://www.temcoindustrial.com/product-guides/phase-converters/static-phase-converters.html

Last edited on Thu May 11th, 2017 04:16 pm by Gary Hagan

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 Posted: Thu May 11th, 2017 05:29 pm
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Gary Hagan
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Your creation is not a true static phase converter in the sense that it does not utilize a 2 pole single phase input. It is a Single pole single phase input with a neutral connection. You then make multiple taps on what ill call L1.  This creates a "simulated" three phase output. But truly it is not a three phase output.  Hook your contraption to an oscilloscope and show me a waveform that looks like this:









What you have shown here is a 110v L1 and a Neutral which gives the current a path back to ground.  Where you tap L1 supply power to the two corners of the Delta wound motor you are essentially supplying a duplicate source supplemented by a capacitor. The reason you get 110V across all terminals is because you are referencing the same phase angle voltage source to ground

Last edited on Thu May 11th, 2017 05:42 pm by Gary Hagan

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 Posted: Sat May 20th, 2017 03:10 am
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David Allen
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Well - I finally got to see Andrew's mighty 483's in-person today! Can't wait until he has an opportunity to run one of them. Will be quite impressive I'm sure!

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 Posted: Sat May 20th, 2017 12:32 pm
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Michael Mirin
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Nice pics on how you got those bad boys down!:thumbup

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 Posted: Sat May 20th, 2017 05:33 pm
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Richard Larson
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Very very cool! Those are awesome. I'd much rather put one of those in the wall here at my shop to replace the big 5 foot unidentified (has a 1hp Dayton motor) belt drive one that is there now. And I have have 3ph power (600a 3ph delta service  :D) here too! Yeah, you do not want to even get within a couple of feet of the wild leg on this service coming into here. My wife cannot even cut the main off - she can hang from the 3 foot handle but does not weigh enough to pull it down. lol The main disconnect has old school massive fuses - about a foot long and about 3 inches in diameter each. 
One day I will find something better to replace the fan. The blade span on the one I have is right about 55" with a 60" frame. I really need to replace the shutter too - that or pull the entire shutter out to really get it cleaned up right.

Attached Image (viewed 72 times):

fan1.jpg

Last edited on Sat May 20th, 2017 05:37 pm by Richard Larson

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 Posted: Sat May 20th, 2017 08:44 pm
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David Allen
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Richard Larson wrote: Very very cool! Those are awesome. I'd much rather put one of those in the wall here at my shop to replace the big 5 foot unidentified (has a 1hp Dayton motor) belt drive one that is there now. And I have have 3ph power (600a 3ph delta service  :D) here too! Yeah, you do not want to even get within a couple of feet of the wild leg on this service coming into here. My wife cannot even cut the main off - she can hang from the 3 foot handle but does not weigh enough to pull it down. lol The main disconnect has old school massive fuses - about a foot long and about 3 inches in diameter each. 
One day I will find something better to replace the fan. The blade span on the one I have is right about 55" with a 60" frame. I really need to replace the shutter too - that or pull the entire shutter out to really get it cleaned up right.

I bet that 55" 4-plade fan moves some air - but it wouldn't move it like the deep pitch Ilg fans do.  :)

LOL about your wife hanging on the handle of the main disconnect!  I work on generators and switchgear for a living. Thankfully our new stuff has spring-operated breakers that have a charging motor. In other words, you just have to push a button and it goes CLACK rerererere....tick! and it's done. :)

Most of the systems our generators are used with are 277/480 wye systems. They use high resistance grounding and nothing ever is powered neutral to line.

They use lighting and utility transformers for the 120/208 side; with solidly grounded neutral.

Then there are the 600V oilfield units, and 11kv DP powerplants. Cool stuff!

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