AFCA Forums Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register

 Moderated by: Steve Cunningham, Rod Rogers, Larry Hancock
New Topic Reply Printer Friendly
3 in one oil vs Royal Purple #68  Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2017 07:13 am
  PMQuoteReply
1st Post
Peter Balazsy
Guest
 

Joined: Sun Jun 15th, 2014
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Hi Guys:
I've been testing various oils in my 1920 circa RM fan.
It has an oil cup under the front bearing with a spring & wick.

I had the front bearing replaced by Darryl Hudson in SC about 2 years ago.

I have been testing royal purple #68 compared to 3-in-one (Blue can) and Bell & Gosset oil, also ZoomSpout oil.

I found that the Royal Purple oil doesn't last very long with  10hr daily use.
The oil cup gets empty in about 2 or 3 weeks.

The problem as I see it that it must be too thin, because every few days  I see a big drop of oil that has leaked out of the front bearing shaft and dripping down the bottom of the oil cup just hanging there or has already dripped off down onto the base.
This problem does NOT happen with 3-in one oil or the other two oils I mentioned.

I guess it's their viscosity that must be a little heavier than RoyalPurple or something which is keeping the oil from migrating out between the front shaft and running or migrating out the front of the bearing..

So I stopped using Royal Purple Oil.

3 in one ( blue can ) does the job perfectly.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2017 01:57 pm
  PMQuoteReply
2nd Post
Henry Carrera
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sun May 7th, 2006
Location: Maryland USA
Status: 
Offline
I have an RP story that is a bit similar to yours with the leaking oil cup but I was having a different main problem. Let me start out by saying that this involves 3 R&M fans and an '02 cake, all of which have tight bearings that are very long compared to the shaft diameter. Also, I originally bought my RP from Scotty MacClymonds so the oil is close to 20 years old now.

One by one all 3 R&M's eventually locked up and became unusable. About 7 years ago the pancake started binding up to the point I could barely turn the blade by hand. The cake is a daily runner so my lazy "fix" was to remove the brass cap on top of the bearing and squirt penetrating oil or thin Tri-Flow to unlock the shaft. Every few months it would bind up again so I kept repeating this process.

About a month ago I decided to get to the bottom of this problem and took two of the R&M's apart which are identical 9" models. The third is a 16" six blade which is still locked up. I found hard brown deposits on both the front and rear shafts and bearings. At this point I decided to switch to a detergent oil. Searching my shelf's for a light weight detergent oil I found air tool oil. Both R&M's and the cake have been running every day with no problems yet. Actually, the spin down time on the cake is simply amazing. I don't ever remember it taking so long to come to a stop.

Now for the leaking oil cups. Like I mentioned they are both the same models and have run the same amount of time after switching oils. I noticed drips on the bottom of one front oil cup yet the other fan remained dry. Just a couple of days ago the leaking fan started to slow down. I thought the shaft deposit problem was starting to show up again but to my relief I found that the oil cup was empty already. I haven't looked into the cause of the leak just yet but when I first saw it I was thinking it was leaking from the threads of the oil cup and adding some Teflon tape may take care of the problem. Now I'm so so sure because the leaking fan also has oil trails on the blade and the other fan is completely dry with still a full cup of oil. I haven't checked this scientifically, but by looks and feel I think the air tool oil may be a bit lighter than the RP which goes against your results. However, my RP is very old so maybe it could be a completely different product now.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2017 02:12 pm
  PMQuoteReply
3rd Post
Lawrence Smith
AFCA Member


Joined: Sun Aug 4th, 2013
Location: Wichita, Kansas USA
Status: 
Offline
Henry check your oil cup out for  pin holes-- other people have found minute pin holes in these cups. One repair is to put some jb weld in the bottom & let it seal the cup.I tried RP also, but i didn't have any new or freshly rebuilt unit to use for a guinea pig. I didn't notice any great revelation  so  I use a readily available 3 in1, zoomspout & even have  some amsoil equivalent. they all seem to do the job.  

Lawrence 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2017 02:51 pm
  PMQuoteReply
4th Post
Henry Carrera
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sun May 7th, 2006
Location: Maryland USA
Status: 
Offline
Lawrence Smith wrote: Henry check your oil cup out for  pin holes-- other people have found minute pin holes in these cups. One repair is to put some jb weld in the bottom & let it seal the cup.I tried RP also, but i didn't have any new or freshly rebuilt unit to use for a guinea pig. I didn't notice any great revelation  so  I use a readily available 3 in1, zoomspout & even have  some amsoil equivalent. they all seem to do the job.  

Lawrence 

Thanks Lawrence, I'll look into that. It only leaks while running so it could be some other problem plus there are oil trails mainly on the front surface of the blade. Both hubs have oil slinger grooves so I'm wondering if one fan may be leaking oil past the shaft and blade hub. I might try a small O-ring on the shaft or maybe a blob of silicone seal on the front of the shaft just to see how it's traveling to the blade.



Last edited on Sat Aug 5th, 2017 08:10 pm by Henry Carrera

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2017 09:28 pm
  PMQuoteReply
5th Post
Rick Powell
AFCA Member


Joined: Sun Feb 15th, 2015
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
What brand air tool oil?

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2017 10:16 pm
  PMQuoteReply
6th Post
Peter Balazsy
Guest
 

Joined: Sun Jun 15th, 2014
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
When I first noticed my leaking  problem with RoyalPurple oil, at first I didn't suspect that the oil was too thin so I just tried to see why it was leaking out the front shaft. I had the fan tilted downward a bit so I tried tilting more level and then even upward too.  But no matter what angle the oil still leaked from the shaft.
Testing every few hours and every day before it reached a whole droplet size I would just test it by touching the front shaft with the corner tip of a tissue and sure enough it was always wet and purple.

But so far, with 3-in one oil and Bell &Gosset or Zoom Spout oil... nothing seems to be leaking out of the front shaft.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2017 10:56 pm
  PMQuoteReply
7th Post
Russ Huber
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: Southwest, Wisconsin USA
Status: 
Online
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIKavimNXm0

Attached Image (viewed 384 times):

maxresdefault.jpg

Last edited on Sat Aug 5th, 2017 10:58 pm by Russ Huber

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2017 10:56 pm
  PMQuoteReply
8th Post
William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Pukalani(hole In Heaven), Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
I find this topic interesting from another perspective.
I ride old motorcycles and work on them for folks, too.
From what I've read, synthetic motor oils have a maximum viscosity of 20w.
Not a problem for modern cars with their high tolerances, but in the old bikes, switching over to synthetics might cause, or promote oil seeping and downright leaks.
It's so slippery, they say, than it creeps right past the gaskets and seals.
I'm not so sure. Modern motor oils have additive packages in them that reduce friction and I'm leaning toward these as the culprit.
So, my question is, is the oil you're using designed for automotive use?
I've used both Zoom Spout and RP and can't tell the difference. Mostly when I get oil leaks it's my fault.
Zoom Spout is cheap, readily available at the local hardware store is seems to be doing the job just nicely.
Plus, I've found other uses for it around the house. One thing I would never do is get automotive oil on me for any length of time. Who knows what's in those additive packages?
Not listed on the ingredients label. Sometimes they say "zinc added" but that's all.
Cheers,
Bill

Last edited on Sat Aug 5th, 2017 11:00 pm by William Dunlap

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Aug 5th, 2017 11:31 pm
  PMQuoteReply
9th Post
Peter Balazsy
Guest
 

Joined: Sun Jun 15th, 2014
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I think you've hit on something there.
Maybe RP oil is too slippery and helping it to slip out between the bearing and the shaft.

All I know is that it doesn't happen with the other 3 oils
3-in-one (blue-can)
Zoom Spout oil
Bell & Gossett oil

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 02:12 am
  PMQuoteReply
10th Post
Henry Carrera
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sun May 7th, 2006
Location: Maryland USA
Status: 
Offline
Rick Powell wrote: What brand air tool oil?

Marvel, same company that makes Marvel Mystery Oil. The can is probably 20+ years old.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 02:32 am
  PMQuoteReply
11th Post
Peter Balazsy
Guest
 

Joined: Sun Jun 15th, 2014
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I was going to  pick up some Marvel Mystery oil one day to try it too.
Has anyone had good results on a fan motor?

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 02:55 am
  PMQuoteReply
12th Post
Henry Carrera
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sun May 7th, 2006
Location: Maryland USA
Status: 
Offline
Peter Balazsy wrote: I was going to  pick up some Marvel Mystery oil one day to try it too.
Has anyone had good results on a fan motor?

The air tool oil is a different animal than MMO. MMO is too light for lubing fans IMHO.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 03:42 am
  PMQuoteReply
13th Post
Jamie Williams
AFCA Member


Joined: Wed Nov 16th, 2016
Location: Cary, North Carolina USA
Status: 
Offline
Actually glad I read this for a different reason. I've used the blue 3-in-1, zoomspout, and RP and can't honestly say that I could tell a difference (although I'm still in the RP camp for grease). This viscosity discussion makes sense, and I may rethink (or reverse) my strategy. I used to dump 3-in-1 in every thirsty fan I found and put RP in the fans I planned to keep. Because, you know, it's more expensive so that makes it better. :hammer: It seems to make more sense to put the thinner oil in the fans that are struggling and need help, and the thicker oil in the healthy fans.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 05:20 am
  PMQuoteReply
14th Post
Russ Huber
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: Southwest, Wisconsin USA
Status: 
Online
3 in one- 20 SAE non-detergent petroleum based lubricant.


Zoomspout- 15 SAE Turbine oil.


Royal Purple ISO 68 20 SAE non-detergent synthetic.


Amsoil ISO 46 20 SAE non-detergent synthetic.




Tip.....20 SAE non-detergent will do ya. Fact jack. :clap:

Attached Image (viewed 318 times):

untitled.png

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 05:44 am
  PMQuoteReply
15th Post
Peter Balazsy
Guest
 

Joined: Sun Jun 15th, 2014
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Well.. ok.. thanks.
Nice to know they are mostly all 20w. ( I guess 20w means it's viscosity?)
So the question remains then, if it's not lesser /thinner viscosity ... what is it  about RP#68 that causes it to migrate out the front of the bearing and not the others?

Last edited on Sun Aug 6th, 2017 05:46 am by Peter Balazsy

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 08:21 am
  PMQuoteReply
16th Post
William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Pukalani(hole In Heaven), Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
If 20w synthetic and 20w mineral oil (zoom etc.) behave differently, it's not because of the viscosity.
From what I understand, the difference is in other properties, ie. synthetic has the property of coating metal and not draining off like mineral oil does. This makes it good for fans run only occasionally as the bearings will never actually get dry.
This property may also be responsible for it migrating like you are describing. Maybe a more controlled experiment will give the answer.

If in doubt, just use Zoom Spout.
Cheers,
Bill

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 04:58 pm
  PMQuoteReply
17th Post
Russ Huber
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: Southwest, Wisconsin USA
Status: 
Online
Notice the ISO ratings in the chart.  Notice Royal Purple being ISO 68 is borderline 30 weight, or 30 SAE synthetic lubricant.  Your best synthetic non-detergent fan motor recommended 15-20 SAE oils are 32 and 46 ISO ratings.

The Royal Purple ISO 68,or Amsoil ISO 46 synthetics mentioned above are non-detergent COMPRESSOR OILS.  Either one would last up to 8 times longer than petroleum based lubricants.  Amsoil can be EASILY found and purchased bought by the quart by a local Amsoil dealer...for roughly an $10 bill.     

Attached Image (viewed 275 times):

untitled.png

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 05:29 pm
  PMQuoteReply
18th Post
Russ Huber
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: Southwest, Wisconsin USA
Status: 
Online
Royal Purple is borderline 30 SAE synthetic at ISO 68 rating. 


https://www.afcaforum.com/forum1/37373.html

Edward Bowers wrote: By the way, that Synfilm 100 is a SAE 30 wt. compressor oil. Too heavy for fans.

Last edited on Sun Aug 6th, 2017 05:29 pm by Russ Huber

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 05:31 pm
  PMQuoteReply
19th Post
Russ Huber
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: Southwest, Wisconsin USA
Status: 
Online
Check out "Viscosity classifications"


http://www.tribology-abc.com/abc/viscosity.htm

Last edited on Sun Aug 6th, 2017 05:33 pm by Russ Huber

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 05:38 pm
  PMQuoteReply
20th Post
Russ Huber
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: Southwest, Wisconsin USA
Status: 
Online
Amsoil synthetic ISO/SAE ratings.


(ISO 32, SAE 10W) PCH



(ISO 46, SAE 20W) PCI



(ISO 68, SAE 30W) PCJ



(ISO 100, SAE 40W) PCK


(ISO 150, SAE 50W) PCL


Last edited on Sun Aug 6th, 2017 05:39 pm by Russ Huber

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Aug 6th, 2017 11:58 pm
  PMQuoteReply
21st Post
Peter Balazsy
Guest
 

Joined: Sun Jun 15th, 2014
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
A cpl years ago when I got started rebuilding my RM fan I was trying to find a source for RP#68 oil so I called the Royal Purple MFG direct.
I got to speak to an engineer there who laughed about it and  then he told me that RP#68 was NEVER designed or made for use in fan motors.

He said, "The fact that it happens to "work" in some fashion, is just some antique-fan collector's accidental and interesting discovery. That does not mean that it will not be good or work well on fans.. but just that the company did not have FAN Motors in mind when they made this oil. "

So RP#68 was made specifically for certain other industrial purposes and The Royal Purple company makes no claims about its use in fan motors.

So it is whatever it is...

Last edited on Mon Aug 7th, 2017 12:04 am by Peter Balazsy

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Mon Aug 7th, 2017 04:06 am
  PMQuoteReply
22nd Post
Russ Huber
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: Southwest, Wisconsin USA
Status: 
Online
The synthetic non-detergent compressor oils are top tier lubrication.  ISO 46 rating is as close as it gets to 20 SAE.  The only reason I have pushed the Amsoil ISO 46 is the simple fact it is one of the few ...if any....ISO 46 synthetic 20 SAE lubricants you can buy by the QUART...from a local Amsoil dealer.  

The best bang for your buck, and you don't have to buy 5 gallons to get it.  :clap: :D 

Attached Image (viewed 206 times):

IMG_3165.JPG

Last edited on Mon Aug 7th, 2017 04:07 am by Russ Huber

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2017 07:07 pm
  PMQuoteReply
23rd Post
Russ Huber
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: Southwest, Wisconsin USA
Status: 
Online
AAA conducted an extensive scientific analysis to find out. The results, published earlier this month, aren't shocking, but they could guide consumer behavior toward spending a bit more money to get a long-term review.
Synthetic is better. A lot better.
"Synthetic oil outperformed conventional oil by an average of nearly 50 percent in its independent evaluation, offering vehicles significantly better engine protection for only $5 more per month when following a factory-recommended oil change schedule," the organization said in a statement.
In the study, AAA found that "synthetic engine oils performed an average of 47 percent better than conventional oils in a variety of industry-standard tests," John Nielsen, the organization's managing director of automotive engineering and repair, said in a statement.

Does this mean synthetic oil is the best choice for your fan?? :wondering:  Yes, if  your fan is turbo charged and idles in traffic for long periods of time during rush hour. :D

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2017 07:57 pm
  PMQuoteReply
24th Post
Steve Stephens
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: San Anselmo, California USA
Status: 
Offline
Russ Huber wrote: AAA conducted an extensive scientific analysis to find out. The results, published earlier this month, aren't shocking, but they could guide consumer behavior toward spending a bit more money to get a long-term review.
Synthetic is better. A lot better.

Does this mean synthetic oil is the best choice for your fan?? :wondering:  Yes, if  your fan is turbo charged and idles in traffic for long periods of time during rush hour. :D
The AAA tests were in regards to automobile engines.  We have fan motors that run at drastically lower temperatures and loads with no combustion byproducts getting in the oil.   I'll stick with zoom spout 10 wt. or 20 or 30 wt. non-detergent motor oil for electric motors of combustion engines.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2017 11:00 pm
  PMQuoteReply
25th Post
Lane Shirey
AFCA Member


Joined: Wed Apr 30th, 2014
Location: Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
Status: 
Online
Not wanting to get in the middle of this never ending oil debate, but, the fact is that any oil made today far exceeds the quality and durability of oils made way back when. 

Having said that, MY personal experience is that the RP oil works best with older fans , especially those with some bearing wear. Whether it's the oil's ability to provide a better slippery film, or just because it's thicker, not sure. 

For newer and dime store fans, the zoom spout seems to work best, likely due to the closer tolerances of the motors and thinner viscosity oils. I've found RP to be too think for these smaller motors. 


That's what I use. 

Oh, and I've never has RP leak simply because it's synthetic or whatever. I have seen leakage due to pinholes in the oil cups, especially the GEs with the slot milled into the bottom. The other instances were when the oil return passages were clogged (as they usually are) or the slinger fiber washer is missing from behind the blade hub. 

Last edited on Wed Aug 9th, 2017 11:07 pm by Lane Shirey

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Thu Aug 10th, 2017 02:57 am
  PMQuoteReply
26th Post
Tom Dreesen
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Nov 25th, 2005
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana USA
Status: 
Offline
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248321347_The_creep_of_oil_on_steel_followed_by_ellipsometry

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Aug 12th, 2017 02:01 am
  PMQuoteReply
27th Post
Daniel OToole
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Mon Jun 3rd, 2013
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Amen russ,Amsoil!!!!

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

Current time is 02:53 pm  
AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Pre-1950 (Antique) > 3 in one oil vs Royal Purple #68 Top



Beige Theme By: Di @ UltraBB
UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.2231 seconds (10% database + 90% PHP). 32 queries executed.