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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 03:18 pm
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David Allen
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Gregory Merrick wrote:


David, does that mean that the less expensive switches are made to respond to a direct short but not to an increase in amperage that a failing capacitor might create? Sorry I am not better versed in electrical issues! 



Yes you're exactly right.

The switches designed for motor protection are based around a motor "thermal damage curve." This describes how a motor can be run without damage, slightly overloaded for a long time; moderately overloaded for a moderate time, and heavily overloaded for a short time. When the motor's rated nameplate full load current, and the calibration (heater) used for the switch are matched, it will keep the motor from exceeding the thermal damage curve.

Another way to think about it is this... The motor protector is "estimating" how hot the motor is, based on how much time the motor has been overloaded, and how severely overloaded it is. It will turn off, before the estimated temperature would become unsafe.

If the capacitor fails and the motor current goes above the rated amount, the same will hold true. If the capacitor goes open-circuit while the motor is running, and the motor only gets a little bit weak, it may run for hours like that before tripping.  If the capacitor shorts out and the motor develops a heavy overcurrent condition, the protector will trip it in a few minutes.

The switches with a fuse, or general-purpose MCB's (molded case circuit breakers) sold at Home Depot etc. are designed to protect building wiring from shorts and overloads. They are not sensitive enough to be used for a motor protector on a small motor such as this. You can buy motor protection fuses, but as far as I know they are all cartridge style and not the screw-in glass fuses that fit the switches you've seen. They are expensive, one-time-use devices as well.

Hope this helps! Don't hesitate to ask. That's how we learn and share knowledge here!

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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 06:22 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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David Allen wrote: Gregory Merrick wrote:


David, does that mean that the less expensive switches are made to respond to a direct short but not to an increase in amperage that a failing capacitor might create? Sorry I am not better versed in electrical issues! 



Yes you're exactly right.

The switches designed for motor protection are based around a motor "thermal damage curve." This describes how a motor can be run without damage, slightly overloaded for a long time; moderately overloaded for a moderate time, and heavily overloaded for a short time. When the motor's rated nameplate full load current, and the calibration (heater) used for the switch are matched, it will keep the motor from exceeding the thermal damage curve.

Another way to think about it is this... The motor protector is "estimating" how hot the motor is, based on how much time the motor has been overloaded, and how severely overloaded it is. It will turn off, before the estimated temperature would become unsafe.

If the capacitor fails and the motor current goes above the rated amount, the same will hold true. If the capacitor goes open-circuit while the motor is running, and the motor only gets a little bit weak, it may run for hours like that before tripping.  If the capacitor shorts out and the motor develops a heavy overcurrent condition, the protector will trip it in a few minutes.

The switches with a fuse, or general-purpose MCB's (molded case circuit breakers) sold at Home Depot etc. are designed to protect building wiring from shorts and overloads. They are not sensitive enough to be used for a motor protector on a small motor such as this. You can buy motor protection fuses, but as far as I know they are all cartridge style and not the screw-in glass fuses that fit the switches you've seen. They are expensive, one-time-use devices as well.

Hope this helps! Don't hesitate to ask. That's how we learn and share knowledge here!


Helps immensely, David. Thanks much!

Back to those Mercedes guys, the ones who admired the running Ilg; they were the fellows who worked on their own cars. Such a tremendously complex vehicle - before the advent of computer driven gadgets - required a range of knowledge that goes much deeper than most mechanics could bring to bear. More than one trunk lid was bent when an untutored hotel valet tried to shut it against its hydraulics, a system which operated every normal mechanical device including doors (for silent closure), window operation, and ventilation systems. I could go on...


I am drawing a parallel here - the ability to work on these fans draws interest and knowledge from all sorts of disciplines. The internet has its downside, but the odds of being able to maintain - let alone repair - these machines before there were pockets of knowledge like this one are almost nil. Even finding this site was a stroke of luck!


Cheers!







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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 06:35 pm
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Andrew Block
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Mercedes vacuum systems were a nightmare.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 08:12 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote: Mercedes vacuum systems were a nightmare.


That's called a Miele. :D


Hydraulic and air systems were prone to problems after sufficient time had passed - a sudden outburst of hydraulic fluid on occupants' evening clothes caused Mercedes Benz USA to abandon trying to maintain the Pullmans that they kept for shepherding guests around New York. 


The air system worked quite well if maintained, but bending down to access the reservoir just ahead of the front left tire in order to drain condensation did not appeal to most US buyers, who also ignored warnings to add alcohol to the moisture trap; and so the complex of tiny valves developed corrosion problems. Fortunately, there are firms who still rebuild those things, but you really have to have your own well equipped garage or a specialty shop nearby, because a Mercedes dealer seeing one of those behemoths coming on a tow truck will lock its garage doors. 



Last edited on Wed Aug 15th, 2018 02:52 am by Gregory Merrick

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 Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2018 04:45 am
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Gregory Merrick
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Well, here's a nuisance. Got everything cleaned up and painted, and the motor came back today... oh. UPS seems to have dropped it in shipping and the front housing is broken.

But, tomorrow, as they say, is another day. 



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 Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2018 11:48 am
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David Allen
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Gregory Merrick wrote: Well, here's a nuisance. Got everything cleaned up and painted, and the motor came back today... oh. UPS seems to have dropped it in shipping and the front housing is broken.



But, tomorrow, as they say, is another day. 








Oh, NO this is horrible!

Hopefully someone will have a housing which is good. Unfortunately I don't have and smaller Ilg motors.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2018 08:50 pm
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Andrew Block
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Gregory Merrick wrote: Well, here's a nuisance. Got everything cleaned up and painted, and the motor came back today... oh. UPS seems to have dropped it in shipping and the front housing is broken.

But, tomorrow, as they say, is another day. 




I don't have a spare for a 213. Another member has a burned out one but he wants to get it working one day.

How bad is the break?

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 Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2018 08:50 pm
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David Allen
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Gregory, how badly broken is the housing? Is it iron or aluminum? Do you have all the pieces?

I'm asking since things like this can be brazed up. Aluminum is a touch easier it seems - but both are very doable.

Can you post a picture?

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 Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2018 10:48 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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Andrew Block wrote:
I don't have a spare for a 213. Another member has a burned out one but he wants to get it working one day.

How bad is the break?

David Allen wrote
Gregory, how badly broken is the housing? Is it iron or aluminum? Do you have all the pieces? I'm asking since things like this can be brazed up. Aluminum is a touch easier it seems - but both are very doable.  Can you post a picture?

Here you go. It looks like cast iron. The break is particularly concerning as it involves one of the four bolt bosses. The one missing piece in the photos is, actually, missing, unless it went inside the motor. The box was half opened when I got it, so no great surprise there. ]

The motor is on its way back to Billy (what??? Trust UPS again???). 









Last edited on Thu Aug 9th, 2018 10:50 pm by Gregory Merrick

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 Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2018 11:08 pm
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David Allen
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Gregory Merrick wrote: Andrew Block wrote:

I don't have a spare for a 213. Another member has a burned out one but he wants to get it working one day.



How bad is the break?



David Allen wrote

Gregory, how badly broken is the housing? Is it iron or aluminum? Do you have all the pieces? I'm asking since things like this can be brazed up. Aluminum is a touch easier it seems - but both are very doable.  Can you post a picture?



Here you go. It looks like cast iron. The break is particularly concerning as it involves one of the four bolt bosses. The one missing piece in the photos is, actually, missing, unless it went inside the motor. The box was half opened when I got it, so no great surprise there. ]



The motor is on its way back to Billy (what??? Trust UPS again???). 




This makes me so upset / pissed off / sad to see.  I hope you can locate a new end housing.

It would be fixable, if all the pieces were present and accounted for - but would take a lot of work and time to do and have it look right.


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 Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2018 09:06 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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David Allen wrote: Gregory Merrick wrote:
It looks like cast iron. The break is particularly concerning as it involves one of the four bolt bosses. The one missing piece in the photos is, actually, missing, unless it went inside the motor. The box was half opened when I got it, so no great surprise there. ]



The motor is on its way back to Billy (what??? Trust UPS again???). 




This makes me so upset / pissed off / sad to see.  I hope you can locate a new end housing.

It would be fixable, if all the pieces were present and accounted for - but would take a lot of work and time to do and have it look right.




David, you feel my pain. :hammer:

:D

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 Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2018 09:17 pm
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David Allen
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Gregory Merrick wrote: David, you feel my pain. :hammer:

:D


Yes sir - been there, done that, cried on the tee shirt!

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 Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2018 09:23 pm
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Gregory Merrick
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David Allen wrote: Gregory Merrick wrote: David, you feel my pain. :hammer:

:D


Yes sir - been there, done that, cried on the tee shirt!

Yes, stuff happens. But...well...but...yeah, stuff happens. :violin:


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 Posted: Wed Aug 15th, 2018 02:37 am
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Charlie Forster
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Im going to put this out the contacted switch  went bad in my air conditioner In June and My local motor man  had one and he said the cap should be ok so I just  put the new switch in and it lasted til last week  and the switch went out again so This time there was a burnt smell and yes the switch was bad again so I went down and got a new one and installed it and the conditioner didn't run so I took the cap down and it was to be 40.5  one side was .8 and the other was 20 .67! a dual run cap with both sides 40.5 .
I put in the new cap and it runs like new starts faster than it has  for a long time!  the unit is 30 yrs old .
A cap tester is a good thing to have.

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