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 Posted: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 10:36 pm
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Bruce Varner
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How To Remove Blades From Emerson 77648-SQ?

I see that this has been covered in other threads, but the answer seems to always be to stick an Allen key or similar item in through the back of the motor into a hole in the rotor to restrain from turning, and just remove the blades by turning the direction of fan rotation.  Sound great, but is not working for me.

1) I find no holes in the back of the rotor and therefore have no where to stick anything into. (There is a small 1/2 round hole that looks like where the shaft key sits, but it is too small to hold anything, and is not very deep)

2) Even if I get to the point where I am able to hold the rotor, it seems that in this version, you cannot remove the fan screen before removing the blades.  I could easily remove the nuts, but the cage is one piece and I cannot see how it would come off from around the blades until the blade itself is off. (Hard to get a good grip on the blades to loosen while trying to reach through the cage......)

Any help would be appreciated.  As is usual with my luck, I seem to have a fan that is different than those I can find covered elsewhere in this forum.

Thanks!

Attached Image (viewed 409 times):

Emerson_2small.jpg

Last edited on Mon Jul 30th, 2018 10:39 pm by Bruce Varner

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 Posted: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 10:52 pm
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Lawrence Smith
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Bruce how mechanically inclined are you? did you take the back bullet cover off your fan? I had an emerson blade so stuck it actually split the leather washer in half when i finally removed it(the Blade). Better pics would also assist, some of those cages easily split in half allowing access, can't tell with your picture

Last edited on Mon Jul 30th, 2018 10:55 pm by Lawrence Smith

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 12:30 am
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Andrew Block
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the cage is actually 2 pieces. SQ is a standard cage. Look at the fan from behind and you will see that the back portion screwed to the fan forms small hooks which hook the front of the cage onto it.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 01:55 am
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Bruce Varner
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Thanks Andrew,
Yes, once i looked for the hooks it was easy to remove the front of the cage...

Last edited on Tue Jul 31st, 2018 03:10 am by Bruce Varner

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 01:57 am
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Bruce Varner
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Hi Lawrence,Yes, I am mechanically inclined.  Just not versed in fans that well.  Here is a pic of the rear of the fan with the bullet case off.  Wanting to be sure I do not screw anything up is all......

Attached Image (viewed 388 times):

Emerson_3small.jpg

Last edited on Tue Jul 31st, 2018 03:11 am by Bruce Varner

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 02:20 am
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Lawrence Smith
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Take the left side machine screw out, go to ace hardware & get 1/4-20” stainless steel 3”. Machine screw. Locked the rotor with this in that hole. Tape the collar on the blade , use water pump pliers & unscrew the blade. Tape is to protect the paint, yours looks very nice. (I have to credit Kevin Massey with the Water pump plier trick)

Last edited on Tue Jul 31st, 2018 08:07 pm by Lawrence Smith

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 03:10 am
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Bruce Varner
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Thanks!  I will try that tomorrow.  Yes, this fan is in excellent shape.  I got it from the original owners son.  Owner had just died.  Had kept and used it in their home since new.  Runs and sounds like new.  I am hoping that a complete cleanup will make it like new.  No chips or worn spots in the paint that I can find anywhere.  I will provide some images when it is cleaned up.

Last edited on Tue Jul 31st, 2018 03:11 am by Bruce Varner

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 08:09 pm
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Lawrence Smith
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I don't think I would worry about taking the blade off that one, just clean that baby up & put fresh grease in the gear box!! new oil & good for another 100 years-- it doesn't appear to have any dust bunnies in the back!! 

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 09:15 pm
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Bruce Varner
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All ready go it off!  The upper left screw (Assuming I have the right hole. See image.) is NOT 1/4 - 20.  It is much smaller.  Have not had time to take the screw back to the store yet and determine the exact size........  Was able to get the blade off by jamming a screw driver as depicted, into the works (Avoiding the windings) and then unscrew......

Attached Image (viewed 338 times):

Emerson_4small.jpg

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 09:16 pm
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Bruce Varner
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You answered my next question however.  In the image of the front of the shaft and the back oscillation box, this sure looks like grease to me, not just oil.  I thought I read here somewhere that oil is forced back into the box and supplies the lubrication?


You said something before about splitting a leather washer.  Where is that washer you speak of?

Attached Image (viewed 336 times):

Emerson_5small.jpg

Last edited on Tue Jul 31st, 2018 09:20 pm by Bruce Varner

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 09:17 pm
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Bruce Varner
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Finally, the knob the you twist (See image) to change oscillation, it has over 1/4" up and down play.  The attached cog in the oscillation box also moves up and down this much.  Is this a problem?

Thanks!

Attached Image (viewed 334 times):

Emerson_6small.jpg

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 09:52 pm
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Bruce Varner
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Does the end piece look broken to you? (See image)  Seems odd.  Also, where can I find some instructions on further breakdown of this motor.  Just trying to clean it up and to learn.  Plus how does one remove the inter oscillation shaft?

My main purpose is to remove some end play within the shaft..
...

Attached Image (viewed 329 times):

Emerson_7small.jpg

Last edited on Tue Jul 31st, 2018 10:50 pm by Bruce Varner

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 Posted: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 11:13 pm
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Lawrence Smith
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yes the end piece looks broken, the front of yours looks nasty, it should not have grease up there. I'm sorry about the thread size, that's a newer box than I'm used to cleaning. I have a newer style unit & will check the nut on the end. Yes you can add washers to any of the gear box, but if it was working I would make sure & leave some end play . The rotor should have approx 1/16" end play or a bit more , the gear box thumbwheel I'm not sure on play tolerance, but a lot of times it has allen set screws & you can just loosen them & raise the thumbwheel.  since you have it this far, how stiff is the headwire? Those years seem to get brittle faster & then cause issues.  
Almost forgot, at the back  where the blade shaft seats (on the rotor) is a leather type washer, usually crusty & stiff it is there for oil control which your fan seems to not have much control of in the front area.

Last edited on Tue Jul 31st, 2018 11:15 pm by Lawrence Smith

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 Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2018 02:12 am
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John Fengel
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That "end piece" is on later models and it comes off. Gently grab it with a pair of pliers and turn left.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2018 02:40 am
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Zachary Parr
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Are you the one that bought it on Craigslist in raytown. If you did that is awesome I was going to get it but didn't have enough money. Emerson fans are awesome and probably will out last you with proper maintenance. 

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 Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2018 04:59 pm
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Bruce Varner
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Thanks John on advice for which direction to turn this nut!  It came off easily.

Yes Zachary, that is the fan I bought.  It is in very nice shape and runs fine.  I just need to go through things when I get them to try and put them in perfect shape if possible.


Here is an image of that same nut, set back on the fan after the nut only had been cleaned.  I at first thought the nut was broken.  However looking at it cleaned up, the odd shape seems just too clean and precise to be a break.  Can anyone confirm that the nut is NOT broken?


I also still need some advice on how to remove the oscillation shaft and the stater.  I guess I really do not need to remove them, but with all the grease in the oscillator box and under the fan blade nut, I am worried that this grease is also in the well and along the oscillator shaft instead of oil.  Thanks!


Attached Image (viewed 277 times):

Emerson_8small.jpg

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 Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2018 11:03 pm
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John Fengel
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Bruce Varner wrote: Thanks John on advice for which direction to turn this nut!  It came off easily.

Yes Zachary, that is the fan I bought.  It is in very nice shape and runs fine.  I just need to go through things when I get them to try and put them in perfect shape if possible.


Here is an image of that same nut, set back on the fan after the nut only had been cleaned.  I at first thought the nut was broken.  However looking at it cleaned up, the odd shape seems just too clean and precise to be a break.  Can anyone confirm that the nut is NOT broken? That's the way they are, it isn't broken.


I also still need some advice on how to remove the oscillation shaft and the stater.  I guess I really do not need to remove them, but with all the grease in the oscillator box and under the fan blade nut, I am worried that this grease is also in the well and along the oscillator shaft instead of oil.  Thanks! Remove the Oscillator Gear Box, then pull the Oscillator Shaft out - Remove the 3 screws from the Oscillator Housing and remove the top, clean the gears and lube with new grease - Grease lubes the gears in the Oscillator Gear Box and Oil lubricates the Rotor - use the "Search" function on the web site to look up postings on grease and oil, there are many



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 Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 12:49 am
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Bruce Varner
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Thanks John.  I have had the Oscillator Gear Box off for some time now.  I am assuming you are saying to pull the Oscillator shaft out from the same side as the the gear box was attached?  I have tried and it will not come out.  At least I have tried with that force I am sure will not damage the shaft.  Is there some pin or other blockage that must be removed first, before the Oscillator shaft can be removed.  If not I will try with more force.  Just want to be sure there is not just some other detail I am missing.  Thanks!

**UPDATED**  Ok, the Oscillator shaft is out.  I had to apply something more than love taps to achieve the goal.  Very gummy on the inside.  I believe I am now to the point in the motor where I can clean without further disassembly.  Going to let the Oscillator Gear Box soak for a day or so........

Last edited on Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 12:59 am by Bruce Varner

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 Posted: Fri Aug 3rd, 2018 03:01 am
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Bruce Varner
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Everything broken down now.  Spending the next few days soaking parts & cleaning the fan from one end to the other.

Also, I thought I would provide an answer to the screw size for the Oscillator tank.  Suggestions for older model Emerson's say to use a 1/4 -20 screw in the upper left tank hole, to lock the stater & help with fan blade removal.  This fan is a 77648-SQ and manufactured in 1955.  The actual screw size for this model is 10-32, but...........

None of the three Oscillator tank hole are tapped all the way through.  The holes go through, but the threads do not!  Looking at the screws, they are machine thread, but are smaller in size at the beginning.  Similar to how a self tapping screw is made.

So, that makes this tip not valid for this model year at least.  I could tap the threads the rest of the way through, but that does not help for first time break down.

More later.

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 Posted: Fri Aug 3rd, 2018 10:46 pm
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Bruce Varner
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Anyone know where I can get period correct electrical cords for this Emerson fan? Those I have looked up seem to be for much older fans.  The head cord looks original & is brown with a fleck of color, covering a twisted pair.  Thanks

Last edited on Fri Aug 3rd, 2018 10:48 pm by Bruce Varner

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 06:34 am
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Levi Mevis
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Your fan would of had rubberized 12 AWG Heater cord as the power cord going from the fan to the wall outlet, as I can attest to on my 1955 Emerson 74645 AS Hassock Fan. 
The headwire if its original and in good shape and not frayed, I would leave it be as you'll be hard pressed to find period correct headwire for your fan, especially of the cloth variety like what's on there currently. 

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 01:08 pm
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Bruce Varner
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Thanks!  So this black rubberized cord from fan to outlet.  Would it have been flat or round?

The head wire looks fine.  It is dirty however.  Any suggestions on how to gently clean it without risking damage to the cloth exterior?

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 04:01 pm
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Levi Mevis
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It was a flat cord.  As for cleaning the heafwire I would just use dawn dish soap and water to gently clean the headwire.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 01:29 am
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Andrew Block
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Flat cord. I have lots of fans from this era with the original cords. They had a black, 2 wire zip cord with a crescent shaped, non polarized plug.

IMO the heater cords are too heavy for these fans and not correct.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 03:24 am
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Bruce Varner
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About ready to start putting the fan back together.  I noticed some wobble between the base and the center pole.  Since that wiring looked good, I was not going to tear into that.  But that also means I can tell how the pole/pipe is connected to the base.  Is it a simply threaded into the base?  Want to understand this before I try to tighten........   Thanks!

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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 03:04 pm
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Bruce Varner
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A clean oscillator box !!!!

Attached Image (viewed 153 times):

Emerson_9small.jpg

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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 06:58 pm
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John McComas
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Regarding power cords:
I have found that type HPN (rubber covered) 2 conductor 16 AWG (heater power cord) is the closest I've found
to original rubber covered 2 conductor flat cord with round Belden 2 conductor non-polarized plug.
(no longer available)

In the past, I have bought several 8' Woods brand 16 AWG rubber cords from Amazon.
They come with a molded on polarized 2 conductor plug.
Happy Fanning!

Attached Image (viewed 142 times):

cord.jpg

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 09:46 pm
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Bruce Varner
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Can someone tell me exactly what this item is, in the base of my Emerson floor fan?  All seems to be functioning correctly, just would like to know exactly what this piece does? (See image below)  The square piece in the lower right corner.  Thanks!

Attached Image (viewed 117 times):

EmersonFloorFanBase.jpg

Last edited on Mon Aug 6th, 2018 09:47 pm by Bruce Varner

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 09:57 pm
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Levi Mevis
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That is your motor run capacitor,  if the fan works as is,  I worry about it,  but if the fan is having troubles then you can replace that "sardine can" capacitor with a modern one of similar value to the original.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 02:10 am
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John McComas
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The capacitor for your 16" fan 77648 originally is an oil filled 2.7 uf at 250 Volt AC rating.

I would suggest replacing it if it is swollen or leaking oil or if fan runs slow.
The best replacement would be a Mylar or Polyester film motor run capacitor (smaller size)
Rated 2.5 uf at 450 Volts AC.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CBB61-AC450V-2-5uF-Air-Conditioner-Electric-Fan-Run-Start-Capacitor-2-wired/262125475594?hash=item3d07e5570a:g:WxcAAOSwwbdWOFpu


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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 02:16 am
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Levi Mevis
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John McComas wrote: The capacitor for your 16" fan 77648 originally is an oil filled 2.7 uf at 250 Volt AC rating.

I would suggest replacing it if it is swollen or leaking oil or if fan runs slow.
The best replacement would be a Mylar or Polyester film motor run capacitor (smaller size)
Rated 2.5 uf at 450 Volts AC.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CBB61-AC450V-2-5uF-Air-Conditioner-Electric-Fan-Run-Start-Capacitor-2-wired/262125475594?hash=item3d07e5570a:g:WxcAAOSwwbdWOFpu



They actually have modern oil filled ones as well that are in a cylinderical or oval shaped metal can.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 03:05 am
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Bruce Varner
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Great to know about the capacitor.  It seems to be functioning well.  I have got it back together now and testing.  Fan is very quiet and running smoothly.  I am worried about one thing.  I of course added grease (White lithium) to the Oscillator Box & oiled up the parts before assembling.  But I cannot seem to get as much oil (I am using 3-In-One, blue bottle) into the filler as a thought it would take.  I have added less than an ounce and it just will not take any more.
I have run it all day.  Tried to re-add oil several time.  Just does not seem to require any more.  Is that normal?  Do you think something is clogged?  I really spent time cleaning & blowing out the oil feed way.  Just do not want to run it a lot if it is way low on the oil needed.......  Thanks!

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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 03:38 am
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Levi Mevis
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You actually have more than enough oil in the fan, those fans are designed to hold about an ounce of oil (3cc) so that's why its not taking anymore oil. Your fan should be fine.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 11:58 am
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John McComas
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3 cc's of oil is about what you should have in the motor.  Around a teaspoon.

1 ounce of oil is 30 cc's.  Too much.

If you have too much, it will start leaking out of the gearbox area and run or drip down on your floor
or carpet.  (Been there, done that!  Wife was not happy with Royal Purple (purple oil) on her white carpet!)

Looks like you need 4 thick felt pads in the base.  Tan felt color was there originally.
Otherwise the base can scratch up wood floors from the cast iron.

Bruce, you have one of the best designed fans ever made.  Emerson 77646, 77648 series.
Happy Fanning!

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 Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2018 02:34 pm
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Bruce Varner
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Thanks John & Levi!  I guess when I saw the oil quantity somewhere I misread 3 cc's for 3 ounces......

Yes, the four corner felt pads were mostly there.  At the time I took this photo, I had removed them already.  What I ended up doing is replacing them with rubber feet.  I felt it would be less likely to "walk" when used on wood floors.  Works good so far.  I just took those brown rubber coasters that you find at Home Depot.  Used to place under furniture to keep them in place on hardwood floors.  They were too big so I just cut them down to the correct size.


One final question.  I noticed when I got this fan that it did something I have never seen in a fan.  It goes from Off to, Low-Med-High.  Not Off-High-Med-Low.  When I cleaned under the base I saw that the fan should obviously be Off-High-Med-Low, so something is wired backwards.  The switch looks to be original, and never re-soldered.  My assumption is that someone has had the motor to head wire disconnected before me, and re-connected it wrong.  I intend to play around with the three wire connection to the head wire until I get it correct.

So, the question is:  Anything I need to watch for, or be careful of?

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 Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2018 02:03 am
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Bruce Varner
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Ok, since I have completed the restoration of this fan, I created a web page to describe the process for disassembly of this model Emerson fan.  Not because I am an expert, but because I hope it will be insightful for the next person who needs to do this same work.  I am also going to create a new post with this link, so that people would not have to work their way through this complete thread in hopes of seeing the link.
Link to disassembly of an Emerson 77648-SQ fan:

http://brucevarner.com/Emerson_77648-SQ_Fan.html

Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2018 02:09 am by Bruce Varner

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