AFCA Forums Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register

 Moderated by: Steve Cunningham, Rod Rogers, Larry Hancock
New Topic Reply Printer Friendly
Emerson PI241 stuck blade?  Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2018 09:37 pm
  PMQuoteReply
1st Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
The blade seems to be stuck on my PI241. The PI241 blade screws off clockwise like other Emersons, doesn’t it?
I didn’t try *too* hard turn it, which brings me to my next question. If I tried harder would I be putting the cast iron blade hub at risk? I would be heartbroken if it broke.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2018 10:23 pm
  PMQuoteReply
2nd Post
Steve Stephens
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: San Anselmo, California USA
Status: 
Offline
I'd say there is too much risk that a hub wing might snap off.  I once won on ebay an Emerson 6 wing 19666 and the seller, when trying to remove the blade for shipping, snapped off a hub finger.   Try getting a helper to grab two wings while you put a pair of channel locks or similar around the hub behind the fingers.  First, though, find a way to protect the hub from marring from the jaws of the channel locks.  Leather, thick rubber or ??  Put a decently heavy but not too heavy torque on the blade and hold it for a half minute or so.  It would be a good idea to dribble some penetrant down the outside of the hub so it reaches the leather washer behind the hub.   Let it sit overnight.  6-8 drops should be enough.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2018 10:36 pm
  PMQuoteReply
3rd Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
That’s what I thought. Thanks Steve! 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2018 10:39 pm
  PMQuoteReply
4th Post
Jeff Whitfield
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Apr 9th, 2010
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
You guys are assuming there's a washer between the blade and hub. Paul loosened a stuck PI-241 blade with no washer. It was screwed down on the rotor.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2018 10:40 pm
  PMQuoteReply
5th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
That’s definitely worth considering. Thanks Jeff.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2018 10:50 pm
  PMQuoteReply
6th Post
Steve Stephens
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: San Anselmo, California USA
Status: 
Offline
Here is a catalog cut from 1903 showing the leather sealing washer that I bet was also used on the 1901-02 PI-241 but I don't remember if mine has the washer.  1903 would include the 910 and 1010 and some other models made the year after the PI-241.

Attached Image (viewed 661 times):

fm1903p54_small, rotor & bearing cut.jpg

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2018 11:16 pm
  PMQuoteReply
7th Post
Lucas Beshara
AFCA Member


Joined: Wed Jan 25th, 2017
Location: East Texas
Status: 
Offline
Jeff Whitfield wrote: You guys are assuming there's a washer between the blade and hub. Paul loosened a stuck PI-241 blade with no washer. It was screwed down on the rotor.
I recently got into a 21666 with no washer and the blade was fused to the rotor. Used the 2 bolts through the gearbox to press out the main bearing and whole assembly. Once I had the rotor locked in the vise the blade let loose. You never know what you will find on some of these old fans:hammer:

Last resort press the main bearing out and do the same thing

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2018 11:30 pm
  PMQuoteReply
8th Post
Chris A. Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Mar 6th, 2014
Location: Little Rock, AR
Status: 
Offline
Jeff Whitfield wrote: You guys are assuming there's a washer between the blade and hub. Paul loosened a stuck PI-241 blade with no washer. It was screwed down on the rotor.

Jeff is right. Paul had to unscrew the retainer screw from the back side through the shaft.

Once off two guys turning and another holding base to benchtop vice.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2018 07:13 am
  PMQuoteReply
9th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Thank you all for the info.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2018 11:26 am
  PMQuoteReply
10th Post
Lane Shirey
AFCA Member


Joined: Wed Apr 30th, 2014
Location: Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
Status: 
Offline
Soak the joint between the hub  and rotor with a GOOD penetrating oil, then let it sit for a day or 2. That’ll soften the washer. If you think of it, dribble more penetrant on it during that time period. Use a good oil, like Kroil, or PBlaster 

Then use a heat gun to heat the hub heat it evenly all around, focusing the gun to the end of the hub where the threads are. 


Then use the slow, steady pressure on 2 wings near the hub to loosen it. If it doesn’t go, then repeat the process. Often they don’t just break free, they usually move very slowly at first then break free gradually. 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2018 11:33 am
  PMQuoteReply
11th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Thanks Lane! 
Really appreciate all of the suggestions guys! I’m usually pretty confident diving into a fan, but this is a special fan, so I wanted to hear from you experts before I tried anything I wasn’t 100% sure of.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2018 01:37 pm
  PMQuoteReply
12th Post
Chris A. Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Mar 6th, 2014
Location: Little Rock, AR
Status: 
Offline
The PI241 has a groove within the face of the rotor under the threads. As hub screws down is gets all binded up when a washer is not present.


Penetrant and heat did not work.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2018 10:17 pm
  PMQuoteReply
13th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
I’ll try penetrant and heat first, and if that doesn’t work, I’ll look at my other options.
Chris, so if you remove the screw at the back of the fan, that would allow me to remove the shaft, rotor, front housing and blade as one unit?

Last edited on Sun Nov 25th, 2018 10:20 pm by Zackri Higgins

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2018 02:09 am
  PMQuoteReply
14th Post
Chris A. Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Mar 6th, 2014
Location: Little Rock, AR
Status: 
Offline
Zackri Higgins wrote: I’ll try penetrant and heat first, and if that doesn’t work, I’ll look at my other options.
Chris, so if you remove the screw at the back of the fan, that would allow me to remove the shaft, rotor, front housing and blade as one unit?


If you remove rear screw and see the end of a threaded rod then you will be able to pull out the blade, front motor cover, and stator.

If no threaded rod to retain stator then the stator is retained to the shaft by the front screw attached to rod which locks assembly to shaft and this is situation I was in. First try methods mentioned above but the heat, penetrant did not work. Leverage with pipe wrench broke 2 of my screwdrivers and one of Pauls.

Paul is a genius and figured out by usuing a long flat head screwdriver and tapping into the front threaded nut from the rear through shaft he could unscrew from the backside...turn clockwise.

That removed the entire front assembly of the blade, motor cover, and rotor which was placed into a vice. Paul and believe Nick Loos together were able to break free while Daniel O’Toole held the base of vice. 


My PI241 rotor was missing the leather washer as Jeff mentioned. The rotor has a recessed slot for the leather washer. I would assume if you have leather washer in place the heat and penetrant may be enough to work.

Lack of leather washer allowed the hub to bite down hard into the slot and unfortunatly heat and penetrant were not enough.


Last edited on Mon Nov 26th, 2018 03:42 am by Chris A. Campbell

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2018 02:12 am
  PMQuoteReply
15th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Thanks for the info Chris.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2018 06:04 am
  PMQuoteReply
16th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Anything I can do to see if mine has the leather washer or not with the blade on?

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2018 10:55 am
  PMQuoteReply
17th Post
Lane Shirey
AFCA Member


Joined: Wed Apr 30th, 2014
Location: Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
Status: 
Offline
Only thing I could think of is to use a dental tool to probe for a soft substance where the 2 parts meet. The original ones were very thin sometimes. 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2018 11:11 am
  PMQuoteReply
18th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Thanks Lane. I was thinking maybe something like that.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Nov 26th, 2018 01:05 pm
  PMQuoteReply
19th Post
Michael Rathberger
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Nov 15th, 2005
Location:  
Status: 
Offline

I read this a lot, curious if anyone reassembles with antisieze? I get you're taking apart something that's 115 years older since the last time, but who knows the next time you'll have it apart.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Tue Nov 27th, 2018 12:05 pm
  PMQuoteReply
20th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Good news! I *think* I may have the washer. I got a pic of it (wasn’t able to get it to focus on it, but hopefully you can see what I’m talking about). Also when I tap on that with a little metal stick, it doesn’t sound like metal. I outlined what I think is the washer down in there.

Attached Image (viewed 401 times):

5B8023A1-00C4-424C-8AC7-0C55F7786E51.jpeg

Last edited on Tue Nov 27th, 2018 01:54 pm by Zackri Higgins

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2018 09:50 pm
  PMQuoteReply
21st Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Definitely has the leather washer. I’ve got some PB soaking in it and it’s starting to feel soft. Gonna let it soak in for a few days. What’s the best orientation to leave the fan in while it’s soaking? I’ve currently got it tilted up (front of the fan facing the ceiling). That’s the only way I could think of to let it sit without the risk of the oil getting on the windings.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Wed Nov 28th, 2018 10:07 pm
  PMQuoteReply
22nd Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Also, does anyone have a wiring diagram to the PI-241? Mine is definitely not wired properly. One of the contacts on the switch doesn’t even have a wire connected to it. Makes me even more glad that I haven’t plugged this fan in yet.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Nov 29th, 2018 02:39 am
  PMQuoteReply
23rd Post
Chris A. Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Mar 6th, 2014
Location: Little Rock, AR
Status: 
Offline
Zackri Higgins wrote: Definitely has the leather washer. I’ve got some PB soaking in it and it’s starting to feel soft. Gonna let it soak in for a few days. What’s the best orientation to leave the fan in while it’s soaking? I’ve currently got it tilted up (front of the fan facing the ceiling). That’s the only way I could think of to let it sit without the risk of the oil getting on the windings.

Face it downwards. You want the penetrant on the hub and washer

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Thu Nov 29th, 2018 01:13 pm
  PMQuoteReply
24th Post
Henry Carrera
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sun May 7th, 2006
Location: Maryland USA
Status: 
Offline
Zackri Higgins wrote: Definitely has the leather washer. I’ve got some PB soaking in it and it’s starting to feel soft. Gonna let it soak in for a few days. What’s the best orientation to leave the fan in while it’s soaking? I’ve currently got it tilted up (front of the fan facing the ceiling). That’s the only way I could think of to let it sit without the risk of the oil getting on the windings.
 
I would think normal level operating position would be the best choice. If the washer is doing its job it will be tough for the PB to get to the threads. The PB will want to run to the bottom but surface tension will hold a little in the crack. Every few hours or whatever, spray, turn a little, spray, for at least one revolution and stopping at different positions. If you can get some "Kroil" that would even be better. It really does creep!

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Nov 29th, 2018 01:22 pm
  PMQuoteReply
25th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Chris and Henry, thanks for the suggestions. I’ll try all of these things. 
The leather washer probably isn’t working quite as well as it used to being that it’s probably degraded some (I would think anyway). 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2018 01:17 am
  PMQuoteReply
26th Post
Lane Shirey
AFCA Member


Joined: Wed Apr 30th, 2014
Location: Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
Status: 
Offline
You really just want to soften that washer so it tears, or slides when you try to twist off the blade. 
I doubt much penetrating oil will make it back into the threads. That’s what the heat is for. It will soften the hardened oil residue that is likely binding your threads. You gotta heat it with the heat gun until you can hear the oil sizzling a little or you see it oozing. Just be careful to not catch all that Kroil on fire. 


Just adding this to the good advice you’ve received already from Henry, Chris and others. 

Last edited on Fri Nov 30th, 2018 01:18 am by Lane Shirey

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2018 09:05 am
  PMQuoteReply
27th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Ah, I see. Thanks Lane.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Dec 1st, 2018 12:08 pm
  PMQuoteReply
28th Post
Lane Shirey
AFCA Member


Joined: Wed Apr 30th, 2014
Location: Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
Status: 
Offline
Well, did any of that work?

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Dec 1st, 2018 03:19 pm
  PMQuoteReply
29th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
I don’t actually have a heat gun yet. Going to have to get one.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Dec 2nd, 2018 02:51 am
  PMQuoteReply
30th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Got a heat gun, but it’s still hasn’t budged. I’m going to let the penetrant soak in for a couple of weeks and try again.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2018 01:10 am
  PMQuoteReply
31st Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
I GOT IT!!!!!! I’m so happy. I put some more PB on there and got it nice and hot, then I put the channel locks around the hub (whith a piece of material to protect the hub from getting scratched), gave it a nice hard push and it broke loose!

Attached Image (viewed 128 times):

A139A482-F5E5-43B7-882C-BCDE39C33F81.jpeg

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2018 01:13 am
  PMQuoteReply
32nd Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
The stator doesn’t exactly look great, but what should the readings be? It’s a three-conductor headwire by the way. Also, I need a wiring diagram for this fan.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2018 01:19 am
  PMQuoteReply
33rd Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Is the plug that holds the rotor in reverse threaded? I just want to know before I try to remove it.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2018 04:48 am
  PMQuoteReply
34th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
Got the plug and rotor out.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Dec 8th, 2018 02:56 am
  PMQuoteReply
35th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
I think the stator might be alright, as it does give ohm readings. I’m definitely going to varnish it though, as the insulation on the coils seems very fragile. Also got the switch cleaned up and the lever moves very freely now.

One very interesting thing I found during disassembly is that there was a piece of brass wire shoved in between the stator and motor housing (see pic below where I outlined it), presumably to make it a tight fit, as the casting may have been a little off. It appears to be the exact same type of wire that the rear ring of the cage is made out of. I don’t know why, but I just found this to be really cool and fascinating. 

Attached Image (viewed 73 times):

9EEE6126-CD96-4D95-B3A9-E972F1228C29.jpeg

Last edited on Sat Dec 8th, 2018 02:57 am by Zackri Higgins

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Dec 8th, 2018 07:26 am
  PMQuoteReply
36th Post
Don Tener
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Dec 21st, 2012
Location: Saint Petersburg FL, Florida USA
Status: 
Offline
Zackri Higgins wrote: I think the stator might be alright, as it does give ohm readings. I’m definitely going to varnish it though, as the insulation on the coils seems very fragile. Also got the switch cleaned up and the lever moves very freely now.

One very interesting thing I found during disassembly is that there was a piece of brass wire shoved in between the stator and motor housing (see pic below where I outlined it), presumably to make it a tight fit, as the casting may have been a little off. It appears to be the exact same type of wire that the rear ring of the cage is made out of. I don’t know why, but I just found this to be really cool and fascinating. 
That brass piece is a shim that the Emerson factory used to center the rotor in the stator. The rotor needs to be centered in the magnetic field of the stator and that is what was used. When you put it back together use feeler gauges and reinsert it where it is needed.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Dec 8th, 2018 07:33 am
  PMQuoteReply
37th Post
Zackri Higgins
Guest


Joined: Mon Jul 16th, 2018
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
That makes sense. Thanks for the info Don. Can’t wait to get this fan back together so I can start using it!

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

Current time is 08:58 pm  
AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Pre-1950 (Antique) > Emerson PI241 stuck blade? Top



Beige Theme By: Di @ UltraBB
UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.2469 seconds (20% database + 80% PHP). 35 queries executed.