AFCA Forums Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register

 Moderated by: Steve Cunningham, Rod Rogers, Larry Hancock
New Topic Reply Printer Friendly
R&M Gearback runs hot  Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2019 02:24 pm
  PMQuoteReply
1st Post
Mark J Miller
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2018
Location: Houston TX, USA
Status: 
Offline

Im looking for help with my R&M 11530 12 inch BB/BC oscillator. Sorry about the photos being sideways.   From around 1916-1917 I think. The housing temperature is at 120 degrees after 45 min. Haven’t run any longer to see how hot it gets. Darryl Hudson checked bearings/rotor said it’s good mechanically. He gave me Sidney Lamb and Rick Huckabees names to contact for advice but I don’t see their email listings on the Forum. Runs same temp with oscillator disconnected. .7 amp on high, 70 running watts. Ohms on 3 wire stator disconnected are 138,138, and 24. Speed coil ohms are 54 on low, 52 on med and 50 on high.  Fan runs smooth and quiet. The stator windings don’t seem to have much insulation on them, I’m not familiar with R&M tanks. I will reinsulate and recheck temp I guess.  I would think tank motors



would run really cool like my big motor Emerson’s. Would appreciate any input from R&M guys, thanks.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2019 03:21 pm
  PMQuoteReply
2nd Post
Levi Mevis
Guest


Joined: Tue Feb 24th, 2015
Location: Elkhart, Indiana USA
Status: 
Offline
Actually 120 degrees is normal for these fans because they are considered Shaded Pole Motors (they aren't PSC motors like what was used on later Emerson Fans and Later Westinghouse Fans, which the PSC motors are the ones you're thinking of that run cool to the touch) and shaded pole motors almost always run hot between 120-150 degrees farenheit and the readings you gave are normal readings for this fan. 
There is nothing to be concerned about with your fan. Now if your fan was running around 160 Degrees Farenheit or higher then I would be concerned because that would then indicate that your motor has shorted windings and is essentially cooking itself to death.


Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2019 04:35 pm
  PMQuoteReply
3rd Post
John Weaver
AFCA Member


Joined: Wed Feb 14th, 2018
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I have the 16 inch version. Gets good and warm   Warmer than any Emerson I have, but it’s normal for those. You’re numbers look good Enjoy the great fan. 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2019 05:19 pm
  PMQuoteReply
4th Post
Mark J Miller
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2018
Location: Houston TX, USA
Status: 
Offline
Wow! Who’d have thought that up to 150 degrees running temp could be normal for these early fans, I would never have thought it would be. Thanks Levi and John for the much needed advice, saves me a lot of frustration and $!And thank you Levi for selling me that Emerson 77648 fan blade, it works great. I hope a lot of folks come to the first annual(hopefully) fan meet in Galveston Tx coming up.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2019 07:09 pm
  PMQuoteReply
5th Post
Jim Humphrey
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Dec 13th, 2005
Location: Geneseo IL
Status: 
Offline
Marc, the 1153/11530 and the like are not shaded pole motors, they're induction motors and gain their phase shift for starting from the speed control coil I believe.  My personal experience with the 12" 1153/11530 is that they run cool, certainly not 150 degrees.  I wouldn't get too excited as long as they run OK and don't start to stink, but I don't believe they normally run so anyone would comment on how hot they get.  Just personal experience though.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2019 07:52 pm
  PMQuoteReply
6th Post
Mark J Miller
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2018
Location: Houston TX, USA
Status: 
Offline
It does not have any start switch inside motor, just 3 wires. One to power, one to speed switch and another to speed coil not through switch. I assume that one may be for start up. If it is not a shaded pole motor then I still have concerns with heat build up. I guess I’m back to insulating windings and see what happens. Does anyone have a similar R&M tank or Westinghouse that has run them for a coupe hours to check run temp? 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2019 10:17 pm
  PMQuoteReply
7th Post
Jim Humphrey
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Dec 13th, 2005
Location: Geneseo IL
Status: 
Offline
Here in a few minutes I'll start up my 11530 and let it run for an hour or two on high and let you know the temp.  I'll also see if I recorded the various ohms for my 11530 and 1153 when I had them apart years ago.  I'm not so sure that adding insulation is the answer.  From the pics I see it looks like the stator is pretty much normal, and I'm not sure if adding insulation is going to do anything other than retain more heat in the windings, if there is really a problem.  It seems to be one of the go to solutions, but honestly, I've never seen regular insulation do anything other than cover the surface of the windings.  If there's an internal short it doesn't get to it, and if it did, it isn't likely to separate two bare wire surfaces from each other.  Anyway, I'll get back to you on temps and stuff.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2019 11:24 pm
  PMQuoteReply
8th Post
Steve Stephens
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: San Anselmo, California USA
Status: 
Offline
I had a handful or more 1153 and 11530 and none ran what I would consider HOT.  Maybe quite warm and some were barely warm.   I ran them for about 20 minutes before listing them for sale.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2019 12:04 am
  PMQuoteReply
9th Post
Jim Humphrey
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Dec 13th, 2005
Location: Geneseo IL
Status: 
Offline
Well, I ran my 11530 on high with the oscillator engaged for an hour and 20 minutes.  It started at 68.3 degrees, it was at 82.7 in 18 minutes, 97 in 40 minutes, 101 at one hour, and 101 at an hour and 20 minutes, so I guess it probably was stabilized at 101.  To me, that 101 felt warm but not uncomfortable.  I checked on what I recorded a little over a year ago for an 1153 6 blade fan, and it was at 90 degrees after an hour, so it was running a little cooler.  I really don't think you've got a problem at 120 degrees, but I'd for sure check for any binding or tightness at the blades and in the oscillation.  You were running at 120 volts, right?  Might try at 110, but I don't think it'll make much if any difference.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2019 12:49 am
  PMQuoteReply
10th Post
Mark J Miller
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2018
Location: Houston TX, USA
Status: 
Offline
Thanks for your input Steve and your advice on the purchase of this fan. Appreciate you Jim for taking the time to run the tests. That is a running temp I would expect especially with that big thick heavy iron motor cover. I am unsure about insulating the stator, I have read some info, comments on proper insulation of windings may help with heat dissipation as it provides a uniform path for heat to dissipate. I will do it anyway as it has never caused any overheating to any fans I have done. I know it can extend the life of the stator, protects it from vibration damage and moisture penetration.
I ran the fan with variac at 110v. It ran about same temp with oscillator
bottom cover and gears off. The rotor spins freely, the spin down is only about 15-17 seconds which concerns me some but Darryl Hudson worked on motor for bearing inspection and rotor alignment and said mechanically was good to go. Checking the rotor/stator air gap is harder than Emerson’s but it seemed to be around .010-.011 inch. I don’t know of any way to check rotor to stator actual fit/air gap installed with rear cover on other than spin down. It’s a big heavy rotor but spin down At 15-17 seconds should not
cause high temps I wouldn’t think. I’ve never ran it over 45 minutes, but I will insulate stator and recheck it for an hour and a half or so to see if goes above 120. I can live with 120 or so if that’s the max it gets to. If it was a shaded pole motor I would be happy at those temps but not with Induction motors like Jim said.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2019 05:11 am
  PMQuoteReply
11th Post
Tom Morel
AFCA Member


Joined: Sun Dec 25th, 2011
Location: Long Beach, California USA
Status: 
Offline
My 1404 runs a little warm but not uncomfortably so. They should be the same motor(?) but obviously won't have the load of an oscillator when engaged.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2019 09:42 am
  PMQuoteReply
12th Post
Rick Huckabee
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Jun 9th, 2008
Location: Lufkin, Texas USA
Status: 
Offline
Those type R&M motors are what the motor winding books refer to as polyphase wound . A beautiful weave , but problematic . Most have 2 or 3 coils in them that are resistance wire . They sometimes get hot and have not figured them out to duplicate as factory  spec.  I know Chris Benbow was into a rewind on one of those sometime ago and Tim Marks wound  1 or some of them, but not sure how those eventually turned out. There is an AFCA member in Vietnam that winds up the polyphase  CF motors successfully. I strip them out and rewind either coil or skein.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2019 02:24 pm
  PMQuoteReply
13th Post
Henry Carrera
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sun May 7th, 2006
Location: Maryland USA
Status: 
Offline
zzzzz

Last edited on Sun Jan 13th, 2019 10:00 pm by Henry Carrera

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2019 09:21 pm
  PMQuoteReply
14th Post
Mark J Miller
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2018
Location: Houston TX, USA
Status: 
Offline
The polyphase explanation makes sense.I can see the design of the windings in the stator now you’ve explained it Rick. Thank you for the input to clarify a confusing issue. I don’t see any of the coils look like they got any hotter than the rest. Poor design but I’m sure that the engineers thought it was good at the time. Sounds like nothing to be done but rewind to get permanent fix. Hate to spend the money on it when it runs fine but I’m anal about them running properly and try to make them able to run all day/night if needed. I won’t keep a fan just for looks. I will see how hot it gets first and eventually fix it right if needed. I’m going to keep it, I love the look of this fan/tank motors. I saw one painted a pearl white that was truly stunning with those big vent slots and the polished BC/BB. Thanks to all the members who made comments and helped me out. I’m new to this hobby but having folks give advice and expect nothing in return is unique and makes having/working on the fans especially enjoyable.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2019 09:49 pm
  PMQuoteReply
15th Post
Henry Carrera
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sun May 7th, 2006
Location: Maryland USA
Status: 
Offline
Your amp reading seems acceptable and that's all that really matters.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Tue Jan 22nd, 2019 01:17 am
  PMQuoteReply
16th Post
Mark J Miller
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Wed Sep 12th, 2018
Location: Houston TX, USA
Status: 
Offline
Well I finally figured out why the fan was running at 120+ degrees after running a while. Was a simple fix but took a while to get to it.  The rear bearing is lubricated by grease from a grease cup above the rear bearing. The grease in the rear bearing cup had to high of a drop(melting) point. Most of today's greases have way to high a  melting point, like Lucas Red n Tacky(540 degrees) which is what I used in the oscillator gearbox and rear bearing cup, they are both connected together. The bearing was getting grease, as there is a rod that runs down the center of the grease cup. You can move it up and down a couple of times and it forces the grease into the bushing. The bushing had lubrication but the grease would not melt to its oil state for proper lubrication and correct temperature control. What I used in the rear bushing to fix the problem was plain Vaseline  Petroleum Jelly. It has a drop point of around 120 degrees on average from the research I found. I asked Darryl Hudson about the correct grease for the motor bearings, he told me R&M and other brands with grease lubed bushings recommended petroleum jelly back in the day. When I changed out the oscillator grease to Vaseline the fan now runs at 105 degrees at 110volts after 2 hours run time.  105 degrees with the polyphase stator seems fine to me. Old  fashioned wheel bearing grease from decades ago also  had the correct drop point for those old fans but it's  really hard to find it today.  If anyone has a source for a low drop point grease please let me know. Thanks 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

Current time is 03:34 pm  
AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Pre-1950 (Antique) > R&M Gearback runs hot Top



Beige Theme By: Di @ UltraBB
UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.1673 seconds (10% database + 90% PHP). 28 queries executed.