AFCA Forums Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register
AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Pre-1950 (Antique) > Newbie with Northwind 450 need help ;(

 Moderated by: Steve Cunningham, Rod Rogers, Larry Hancock
New Topic Reply Printer Friendly
Newbie with Northwind 450 need help ;(  Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Wed Dec 4th, 2019 01:53 am
  PMQuoteReply
1st Post
Brian Winks
Guest
 

Joined: Tue Dec 3rd, 2019
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Hey guys glad to join the forum ! I have owned this fan for about 15 years and at first only rewired the base to the wall . No biggie 2 wires swapped ready to go ! I then got a little zap because the cloth insulated wires were falling apart ;( I should have taken pics before disassembly but thought I could find them easily online. I know where the ac in connects , I know where the 2 wires come off the rheostat and head up to the motor . However I have 4 wires coming off the stator windings and Im not sure which two go to the brushes and which two connect to the rheostat :shock: Here are some pics , if you need More pics or info please let me know but I have a feeling one of the experts here can straighten me out (I hope) 

Thanks so much , Brian 

AC In 

Rheostat to motor 






We have two wires coming from the ends of the upper windings , we have two wires coming from the bottom center of the bottom windings .. I have 2 brushes that need power and I need to get power to the windings after the rheostat . So I admit I jumped in with both feet but I love this fan . I am a very capable electronics technician (mostly CB/Ham radio and audio ) So I need someone to tell me where to send these 4 wires ;) I feel like an idiot already for not making notes or taking pics but feel free to bash me as long as you can help lol 😂In the last picture the housing / stator is upside down sorry and second pic from bottom is 90 degrees to the right but im sure you guys and dolls know that ! 

Thanks for any help in advance I need to get my baby spinnin again ! Since the pics I have cleaned it up with CRC QD I think the black paint is all original with only minor scratches . Not sure If the blades were ever factory green but it looks pitted and orange peeled so Im guessing rattle can . I will walnut shell blast the fan itself to get it back to bare metal and paint or powder coat it to its original color (guessing gold/brass tone??) I have also coated any crumbling insulation with heat shrink and a coat of liquid electric tape . This fan ran over my grandfathers drafting desk for over 30 years before I got it so I owe it to him to get her running like it was a week ago before I dove in without taking notes or pics  :X

PS please ignore the 14awg extension cord wiring that's just to get her running again before my "authentic" cloth over silicone retro 14awg arrives with my fresh bake-alight (imitation) wall plug arrives from Texas ;) 

PPS I actually have 7 pre 1950's fans I have picked up over the years since I got this one ! I would be glad to post an album once I replace all the cords and plugs ! In New Jersey all antiques shops and auctions MUST cut the wires off before sale if they believe it no longer meets UL listing , so they all were chopped when I got them but I have some cool ones from the teens  20's 30's 40's 50's and I ordered 100' Roll of the fabric over silicone 14awg "retro wire" to fire them all up ! 

Sorry about my terminology and anything that doesn't make sense , as I said I can build you a competition stereo or RF amplifier from scratch and I know BRUSHLESS motors but new to the good ol brushed classics . 

Thanks so much Brian P Winks (yes thats my real name lol )!!

  

Attached Image (viewed 385 times):

031.JPG

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Thu Dec 5th, 2019 03:44 am
  PMQuoteReply
2nd Post
Alex Rushing
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Dec 14th, 2006
Location: Montgomery, Alabama USA
Status: 
Offline
Wish I could help, but I am not familiar with the Northwind motors, and barely know about the two commutator fans I do have. Hopefully someone will be along that will know soon!

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Dec 5th, 2019 04:17 am
  PMQuoteReply
3rd Post
Chris A. Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Mar 6th, 2014
Location: Little Rock, AR
Status: 
Offline
Power feeds:

Attached Image (viewed 176 times):

FCBF3FE0-159F-45A6-8D57-ADA0EA456E01.jpeg

Last edited on Thu Dec 12th, 2019 03:35 am by Chris A. Campbell

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sat Dec 7th, 2019 05:11 am
  PMQuoteReply
4th Post
Brian Winks
Guest
 

Joined: Tue Dec 3rd, 2019
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Chris A. Campbell wrote: Brian,

It has been a while since I opened up a 450, but recall from your switch power will feed into one coil and from that coil to second coil and from second coil to a brush.

Your second brush will be wired back to plug.

Try this out. If needed send reminder and will sketch diagram over the weekend.

Thanks that's what I went for but got reverse rotation ! Going to swap wires from rheostat hopefully that does it ! 

Brian 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Dec 7th, 2019 11:08 pm
  PMQuoteReply
5th Post
Brian Winks
Guest
 

Joined: Tue Dec 3rd, 2019
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Chris A. Campbell wrote: Brian,

It has been a while since I opened up a 450, but recall from your switch power will feed into one coil and from that coil to second coil and from second coil to a brush.

Your second brush will be wired back to plug.

Try this out. If needed send reminder and will sketch diagram over the weekend.


Well I got her spinning and got the rotation back . Then it started shooting smoke and FIRE after 2-3 mins of "run in time"  :X Fire and smoke coming from head vents behind blade so switch and stat are fine but I have to open her up to see what cooked  :hammer:Will post pics ;( Thanks for all the help though !

Brian 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Dec 8th, 2019 02:10 am
  PMQuoteReply
6th Post
Brian Winks
Guest
 

Joined: Tue Dec 3rd, 2019
Location:  
Status: 
Offline

Ok so the bottom screw (coming in the back screws into front housing) pushed or vibrated its way through the liquid electrical tape I insulated the stator coils with  :hammer:(the cracked and bare spots) I have wrapped an electric stator on a 1979 ish YZ490 dirtbike so I get the idea but it was tough to get the wire gauge and amount of turns correct to where they ohmed out within spec :shock: , that was years ago because I could not find a replacement and it sucked lol . I feel awful about this and hope there is a remedy ! I have found a complete stator for the 450 but its almost $200 and for that much money I will make the fan ornamental or install a cheap modern motor in the housing ! I hope these coils are somehow available or at least someone has the specs before I try to rewrap it blind ! Also the fiberglass(I think) insulators on the front and back have crumbled but I can make a set out of pc board or even carbon fiber if need be ! Just want to get her running the way it should if its a possibility ! 

Thanks all , horror show below !!! :violin:  







Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Dec 9th, 2019 12:38 am
  PMQuoteReply
7th Post
Chris A. Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Mar 6th, 2014
Location: Little Rock, AR
Status: 
Offline
$200 Is incredibly expensive. Where did you find one for that much?

These fans are generally in the $65-$100 range complete. Very common.

I have an extra housing with the two field coils. Both coils ohm out at around 28. The cloth taping has deteriorated and a $3 roll of friction tape will do the job.

You are more than welcome to have the housing with field coils for the cost of postage which may be in the $10 area.

If so let me know and will drop in the mail.





Last edited on Mon Dec 9th, 2019 01:09 am by Chris A. Campbell

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Mon Dec 9th, 2019 01:47 am
  PMQuoteReply
8th Post
Brian Winks
Guest
 

Joined: Tue Dec 3rd, 2019
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Hey Chris thanks so much ! I could only find the stator on an antique fan parts website don't quote me but its like "antiquefanparts.com" lol I found a few working fans for $75-250 on eBay so was thinking about going that route . But I would be more than happy to buy your setup and get this girl back together ! Pardon my lack of knowledge but is friction tape the Scotch black cloth tape you find near electrical tape in the big hardware stores ? I honestly never put 2+2 together and realized that was one of the uses for it  :hammer: :hammer: I have a roll somewhere buy I will grab a fresh roll next time I'm out! I will DM you about the details , thanks so much in advance for your help! 


Really glad I signed up now !!! 


Thanks again , Brian 

Chris A. Campbell wrote: 

$200 Is incredibly expensive. Where did you find one for that much?

These fans are generally in the $65-$100 range complete. Very common.

I have an extra housing with the two field coils. Both coils ohm out at around 28. The cloth taping has deteriorated and a $3 roll of friction tape will do the job.

You are more than welcome to have the housing with field coils for the cost of postage which may be in the $10 area.

If so let me know and will drop in the mail.






Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Dec 9th, 2019 02:33 pm
  PMQuoteReply
9th Post
Chris A. Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Mar 6th, 2014
Location: Little Rock, AR
Status: 
Offline
Yes, friction tape is right next to electrical tape and has a cotton/ linen texture. It stretches tight, conforms to profile, and will hold wires tight while offsetting the risk of nicking enamel protection of magnetic wire used in coils.
Send me your address and will mail to you.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Thu Dec 12th, 2019 04:04 am
  PMQuoteReply
10th Post
Chris A. Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Mar 6th, 2014
Location: Little Rock, AR
Status: 
Offline
Brian,

Sent a pm. Housing with fields will be sent tomorrow. Have updated image above with wiring diagram


Thanks

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Dec 15th, 2019 07:22 am
  PMQuoteReply
11th Post
Brian Winks
Guest
 

Joined: Tue Dec 3rd, 2019
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Chris A. Campbell wrote: Power feeds:

WOW CHRIS is that beauty going to be mine !!!!??? What great condition it is in , amazing compared to mine and you still have the original brush contact rings in place . Man this is going to be so sweet ! Cant wait to get my prep work done and do some detail and final assembly ! Im stripping the "shroud" or "cage" or "blade guard" soon because it has a few broken welds and its a bit bent up . After that Im shot blasting the blades to revove the green paint , If it the blades get a shiny gray raw look I might just clear coat them but if not looking to sharp Ill try to find the original color . Aside from that the base and head are all still factory paint in great shape . My cloth wrapped "vintage look" Teflon insulated tape will be here Monday along with the replica bake-a-lite plugs I ordered so Its going to ber great ! 

Thanks Chris and everyone on the forum !  

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Sun Dec 15th, 2019 11:13 pm
  PMQuoteReply
12th Post
Chris A. Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Mar 6th, 2014
Location: Little Rock, AR
Status: 
Offline
Brian,

Photo posted above is just for reference in wiring.  Not sure if you saw my private message, but the one sent to you did not have the terminal rings. Sorry for any confustion, but you should be good with the field coils.

Where did you find a cloth infused teflon tape in black? All I have found was the teflon / ptfe in brown.
3M makes (Or made) a great friction tape. For what ever reason it is getting hard to find and 3M’s website shows a substitute called termflex which is basic vinyl electrical tape. There are other brands too.


Last edited on Mon Dec 16th, 2019 04:33 am by Chris A. Campbell

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Dec 17th, 2019 09:19 am
  PMQuoteReply
13th Post
Brian Winks
Guest
 

Joined: Tue Dec 3rd, 2019
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
[size="2" style="background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247);"]I got a lovely heavy little box today !!!!!!
[size="2" style="background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247);"]

[size="2" style="background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247);"]Thanks again Chris ! Please think of an electrical toy you want or need ! $13.40 cash is boring ! I have electronics from 1919-2019 just about anything you can imagine from a-z ! I know you went above and beyond so you need something cool ! Also once I pop out the field coil assembly do i just gently pull out the coils to rewrap ? Oh and Homie Depot and Lowess by me both have friction tape near the 3m 444-555-666 electrical tapes, The more expensive stuff in plastic containers in multipule colors ! I can only find black and have never even seen brown ;) ?! 
[size="2" style="background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247);"]

[size="2" style="background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247);"]Im posting here for others to leard but will PM for your hobbies aside from fans ! You went out of your way and restored my faith in forums on the www!! 
[size="2" style="background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247);"]

[size="2" style="background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247);"]Thanks again , Brian 
[size="2" style="background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247);"]

[size="2" style="background-color: rgb(247, 247, 247);"]

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

 Posted: Tue Dec 17th, 2019 02:43 pm
  PMQuoteReply
14th Post
Chris A. Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Thu Mar 6th, 2014
Location: Little Rock, AR
Status: 
Offline
Brian,

We are all good on the postage. Thanks for the gesture, but rather it be hands that will use it.

After removing the fields holder you can pull the 2 nails and the coils will pop off. Solder the cloth covered wire leads to coil, heat shrink the joints, and then retape. May be easier to first solder with existing cloth tape to hold field coils together. Remove old tape, apply two bands of tape to hold wire together and then rewrap along with one width of tape covering your soldered joints. This will give clean look while preventing any potential strain to joint if tugged on.

Two potential areas of future issues that may be worth mentioning:

Clean insides of brush holders and brushes. Over time the carbon build up can keep brushes from sliding which will will prevent from running or intermittent running. Also reinsert carbon brushes so that the concave profile worn down matches up to armature.

Your switch may have a broken resistance wire on the wafer. This is common and it is wound with a “nichrome” resistance wire as two series at 65 ohms each.

The 450 Northwind is a nice size, very proportional fan with a beautiful design often overlooked. Hope it all works out well, if not let us know and Merry Christmas.






Last edited on Tue Dec 17th, 2019 02:57 pm by Chris A. Campbell

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Dec 18th, 2019 03:59 am
  PMQuoteReply
15th Post
Brian Winks
Guest
 

Joined: Tue Dec 3rd, 2019
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Chris its great to meet nice people , especially these days . I cant thank you enough for all of your help as well as the knowledge shared . I think this about completes my fan restoration skill set and I couldn't do it without you  :clap: I'm getting more excited about my fans and I'm  trying to decide which one to overhaul next . I have one fan in the basement (I think) lol that's a very pale Aqua color I believe its a Westinghouse but not 100% . Its got aluminum on the stand that I can polish to a mirror finish I have to find it . Also a few GE's a Kenmore and this strange ufo looking fan that sits on chrome legs on the floor and blows up and down only . Kinda looks like a half of metal drum on stilts with caster wheels on the legs haha . I suppose its for circulating the air and keeping the air temp consistent at the top and bottom of the room ???

But back to the Northwind 450 , The head was caked with oil and carbon on the inside its almost impossible to get it off of your clothes by the way lol . Its been completely cleaned out now including the brush holders and vents and nooks and crannies . I should have time to rebuild it this weekend if I'm lucky . Cant wait to right my wrongs and get her swinging again , this time with a bit less flames ;) 

Thanks so much and happy holidays to you and yours ! 

Brian 

Back To Top PMQuoteReply  

Current time is 10:52 pm  
AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Pre-1950 (Antique) > Newbie with Northwind 450 need help ;( Top



Beige Theme By: Di @ UltraBB
UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.1837 seconds (17% database + 83% PHP). 32 queries executed.