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Mini Lollipop Project  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 04:10 pm
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Louis Luu
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This will be a year long project...hopefully sooner.  I will be posting some preliminary pictures later on today.  The goal is to take an already broken mini R&M...modify it for casting into ALL bronze.  Along with that...an actual 12 inch strut will be used to model into a smaller version for the mini lollipop.  I will also be casting the hub for those interested in using it for their toy motors to convert into a fan.

Last edited on Thu Jan 7th, 2021 04:11 pm by Louis Luu

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 06:25 pm
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Sean Campbell
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That sounds awesome!

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 09:12 pm
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Stephen Chew
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:clap:Sounds great Louis. :clap:

Last edited on Thu Jan 7th, 2021 09:12 pm by Stephen Chew

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 10:10 pm
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William Dunlap
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I'll be following this project with interest. Are you using the brush motor 8" R&M? I think that one will have the torque necessary to overcome the friction of the bearings and sliding contacts....much better than a simple induction motor.
Just my opinion.
Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 10:33 pm
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Russ Huber
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Last edited on Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:33 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:14 pm
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Louis Luu
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The plan is to use a mini 8 inch R&M open commutator as the starting point. I am borrowing from the idea from Mike Petree. I do like the idea of owning a mini lollipop but will incorporate some new features. I will model the feet extension using original 12 inch lollipop and the spring mechanism as well. Along with that...I will be using the original 12 inch struts...I like the curvatures and make it fit the 8 inch. This will be done by making a mold of the original then casting in polymer...easier to sand and size with blade....basically reduce all the features to fit aesthetically the 8 inch model. Both the top and bottom will be cast in bronze. The struts holder will be modified where no screws/clips will be needed just like the original 8 inch....basically a bracket to hold the squared back cage. The struts will also be moved to the position just like the 12 inch mounting.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:16 pm
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Louis Luu
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A special thanks to Jim Humphrey for selling his mini R&M open commutator. I offered $380 plus shipping. He countered with $300 shipped. How the heck does that work? Jim...thank you for being nice.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:17 pm
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Louis Luu
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Here is the mini lollipop Mike Petree made...I will be borrowing some ideas as a starting point.








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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:18 pm
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Louis Luu
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Here is the fan Jim Humphrey sold me.










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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:23 pm
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Russ Huber
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Mini Lollipop - Pre-1950 (Antique) - Antique Fan Collectors Association - AFCA Forums



Miniature Robbins and Myers Lollipop antique electric fan - YouTube

Last edited on Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:26 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:23 pm
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Louis Luu
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Jim could not figure out why the cage was half steel/brass.  Mystery solve during taking the fan apart.  The fan was dropped at somepoint and damaged.  I remove the weld/braze.  Today, I blistered the paint and soak in Jasco to remove any stubborn paint and grease.  Need to be real clean so I can do some bondo/priming work...smooth it out with some "flat enamel paint"...thank you Chris Campbell...never knew there was such a thing.  This will help with the mold release. 










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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:26 pm
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Louis Luu
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The tag will be casted...I like the features of the mini flag. After paint is remove...I need to grind some areas on the fan...casting imperfections. Feets will then be molded and added. The middle column will need to be filled leaving a cylinder tube so a oscillating mechanism can be dropped in there....that is the plan.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:28 pm
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Louis Luu
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I will need Mike Petree help with the column oscillating mechanism. William Dunlap...I will need your help with making cage...you do excellent cage work.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:35 pm
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William Dunlap
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Great, I have stock on hand ready to help.Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:39 pm
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Louis Luu
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The plan is to make a couple as kits...and let people drop in their motor.

Last edited on Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:40 pm by Louis Luu

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 Posted: Thu Jan 7th, 2021 11:45 pm
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Louis Luu
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Russ Huber wrote: Mini Lollipop - Pre-1950 (Antique) - Antique Fan Collectors Association - AFCA Forums



Miniature Robbins and Myers Lollipop antique electric fan - YouTube

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 Posted: Fri Jan 8th, 2021 12:05 am
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William Dunlap
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I wanted to mention something I noticed regarding the larger models. The stem of the motor is dramatically moved toward the blade in order to balance the motor, blade and cage assembly on top of the base. This would really help in lowering friction and allowing freer movement. The fan above seems to move pretty slowly and seems to also be running at top speed. Just a thought. If it was better balanced, it could likely rotate easily at lower speeds. Barring that, a weight could be added to the back of the fan to help with balance.
Cheers,
Bill

Last edited on Fri Jan 8th, 2021 12:08 am by William Dunlap

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 Posted: Fri Jan 8th, 2021 12:08 am
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Louis Luu
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I will need to play around with the positioning.  I am also pondering on making a vane oscillator...should not require much additional work.

William Dunlap wrote: I wanted to mention something I noticed regarding the larger models. The stem of the motor is dramatically moved toward the blade in order to balance the motor, blade and cage assembly on top of the base. This would really help in lowering friction and allowing freer movement. The fan above seems to move pretty slowly and seems to also be running at top speed. Just a thought. If it was better balanced, it could likely rotate easily at lower speeds.
Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Fri Jan 8th, 2021 12:58 am
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Richard Daugird
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I am happy to contribute to this project. 8" Vane would be really cool too!

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 Posted: Fri Jan 8th, 2021 02:29 am
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Brad Chaney
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Incredible work!   :clap: :clap: :clap:

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 Posted: Fri Jan 8th, 2021 02:58 am
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Daniel OToole
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I'm sure it will look great..hope I can get one

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 Posted: Sun Jan 10th, 2021 04:06 am
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Louis Luu
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I got some more done and will post pictures tomorrow.

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 Posted: Sun Jan 10th, 2021 04:09 am
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Louis Luu
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I do have a question.  I have another mini R&M...stem is different and I would like to cast the motor housing and the base in bronze.  Does anyone know how to move the little stub from the motor...I already remove the set screw.  Does it pop right out or do your twist left...loose?  Always wanted one mini R&M open commutator all bronze...just like the one Steven Dempsey has but all bronze...no plating.



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 Posted: Sun Jan 10th, 2021 07:53 pm
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Louis Luu
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Work from yesterday.  I welcome input.  Thanks.















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 Posted: Sun Jan 10th, 2021 08:34 pm
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Louis Luu
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Some work done this morning.





















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 Posted: Sun Jan 10th, 2021 08:35 pm
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Louis Luu
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Once everything is mocked up...then casting. Will be sold as kit. Simply drop in stator and rotor.

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 Posted: Sun Jan 10th, 2021 11:22 pm
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Richard Daugird
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It's coming along.

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 Posted: Sun Jan 10th, 2021 11:35 pm
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Louis Luu
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I will take apart my 12 inch lollipop and take a look at the stem mechanism and see what else needs to be fabricated. I'm thinking a new switch with resistor in place of nichrome wire instead.

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 Posted: Tue Jan 12th, 2021 12:21 am
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Louis Luu
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Apparently...there is two different strut styles.  Also...Does anyone know how to remove the stick from the pendulum.  I did a rough mock up of what I want to do.  Once I cast this in polymer...it will be easier to cut and reduce the size to fit the mini lollipop.  The width will also be reduce.  The goal is to cut the straight part of the strut and maintain the curvature.  The mounting end will be modify so no screws/clips will be needed to mount the cage.


















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 Posted: Fri Jan 15th, 2021 07:26 am
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Louis Luu
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I will open up my 12 inch and see what other parts need to be fabricated.  I found some parts online and ordered that should help cut back on the fabrication process.  Here is the stuff for the ring commutator.  A bearing to help it rotate and a slip ring commutator.  I just need to order the rod...will do that later.






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 Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2021 12:55 am
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Louis Luu
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Lollipop ring commutator setup.






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 Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2021 02:18 am
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Louis Luu
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Please look over and give me feedback.  So far...the only thing that would need to be fabricated is the phenolic brush holder and column screw.  The bearing, ring commutator can be source.  I have already bought the ring commutator.  The base of the fan will need to be widen to 16 mm and filled.  Once all this is done...than the struts can be modified.




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 Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2021 02:38 am
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William Dunlap
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Just a thought. If your design does not allow for 360 degree rotation, then you don't really need a ring commutator. You just need a hollow shaft for the wires to run down. You could even run them outside like on an ordinary oscillator. I also have some ideas on how to reduce friction which is going to be important since it looks as though the head will be off balance toward the blade and cage putting some side loading on the bearings.
Cheers

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 Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2021 02:43 am
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Louis Luu
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I've tried to compensate for friction by using two bearings...hopefully this will help. The motor is light enough...should not be a problem. I really want 360 rotation. I looked at the original 12 inch Lollipop...the back end was much heavier than the front. Thanks for the input William.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2021 02:48 am
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Louis Luu
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Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2021 04:27 pm by Louis Luu

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 Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2021 03:12 am
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Louis Luu
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Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2021 04:28 pm by Louis Luu

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 Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2021 03:27 am
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Louis Luu
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OK...this brush holder will work and save a whole lot of time fabricating the phenolic.  Cross out the brush holder.  This will be mounted upside down on the bottom....next to the commutator.  Now just the column screw...McMaster has one I think...just needs a little modification.




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 Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2021 09:29 pm
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Louis Luu
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William...what is your idea on reducing the friction?  I like to hear.

William Dunlap wrote: Just a thought. If your design does not allow for 360 degree rotation, then you don't really need a ring commutator. You just need a hollow shaft for the wires to run down. You could even run them outside like on an ordinary oscillator. I also have some ideas on how to reduce friction which is going to be important since it looks as though the head will be off balance toward the blade and cage putting some side loading on the bearings.
Cheers

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 Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2021 12:03 am
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William Dunlap
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Louis,
The bearings are ball bearings which are meant to be used with a radial load. In the configuration you intend, the bearings will be in both radial and axial loads. Not uncommon...most bearings take loads from more than one direction, but it can add friction and slow things down.
The end of the shaft can be supported by a radial bearing, and the upper side can be supported by the ball and race type you're using. So the weight of the motor assembly is supported by the thrust bearing, relieving the axial load from the ball and race.
In recent projects requiring very low friction, I experimented with various combinations of bearings until I found the right set up. 
Instead of a thrust bearing for the bottom, you could also use just a single ball bearing perfectly centered to take the weight off the upper bearing.
All this might be unnecessary ....just something to think about if you find you can't get it to work the way you want.
I know I struggled with the table vane oscillator until I found the right bearing to use. Still the thing won't work right unless it is perfectly level and the fan is perfectly balanced on the table.
Also, if you have this thing rotating 360 degrees, being off balance may cause it to tip over if it goes too fast. I think it was Kim Frank that made one and he ended up attaching a counter weight to the back so it could rotate properly.
All good fun at the end of the day. 
Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2021 03:34 am
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Louis Luu
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Thanks William...I will look into the bearing types. Hopefully, Amazon has them readily available.
I will add some feet to the base and make sure it is solid and heavy around the base.  A new switch with half wave diode will be fabricated to tame the speed of the fan.


Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2021 03:39 am by Louis Luu

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