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Missing Link Found in Saint Louis  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 07:42 am
   
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Russ Huber
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BTW..... John, enjoyed my phone conversation with you.  As far as a name for the Emerson induction motor claimed introduced in 95.....how about the "Emerson induction lever back desk fan".  Why not make it simple.  This post has been most challenging, and it appears not a post to come to conclusions.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 09:00 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Russ Huber wrote: As far as a name for the Emerson induction motor claimed introduced in 95.....how about the "Emerson induction lever back desk fan".  Why not make it simple. 
Simplest would seem to be as Emerson themselves called their new for 1895 Induction Fan Motor in the 1896 catalog page below:

"Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor or, for short and simple, "Induction Fan Motor".  Even "Back switch induction fan motor".  Anything but "Meston" which it is not in spite of the fact that many have MESTON cast into the front motor bell.

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Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 09:01 am by Steve Stephens

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 09:11 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Steve Stephens wrote: Russ Huber wrote: As far as a name for the Emerson induction motor claimed introduced in 95.....how about the "Emerson induction lever back desk fan".  Why not make it simple. "Back switch induction fan motor". 
I told Trier on the phone you would jump in and name it.  I wonder if I get a complimentary box of Cracker Jacks?
"Lever Switch Emerson Induction Fan Motor." The 98 has the rotary switch in the back as well. Think about it Steveo.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 09:19 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Not I; Emerson named their fans.   I will probably just call it as they did and add the year(s) model.   Better yet:  Meston, 1895-96 tripod, 1897 tripod, and 1898-01 tripod.   Lots of ways to name them aren't there?

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 09:42 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Emerson Electric 1893.  Looks like a cake walk to work there. page 107. The photo of the individual outside the factory photo more than likely be Alexander Meston. The photo is prior to his death.
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=O3s2AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA108&dq=Emerson+meston+fan+motors+1899&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hsbdU5GEEe_e8AGFw4H4DA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Emerson%20meston%20fan%20motors%201899&f=false

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Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 09:48 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 10:18 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Emerson product and incorporation mention.  Book page dated Oct. 22, 1890.
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=N-pQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA440&dq=Emerson+Electric+Manufacturing+Company+Incorporation++1890&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W9DdU-3fO4WqyATOzYII&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Emerson%20Electric%20Manufacturing%20Company%20Incorporation%20%201890&f=false
 
 

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Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 10:26 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 10:31 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Earlier Emerson product patent filed in July of 90.
 
https://www.google.com/patents/US442705?dq=442705&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LtfdU5KYMYaL8QGQ8YF4&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA

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Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 10:33 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 10:40 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Emerson status 1920.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 04:22 pm
   
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John Trier
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Seems like the ball is in our court on this.   As induction technology emerges, it would seem natural to advertise it in publications.  Thus:  "the induction fan motor".   A sales tactic.  Not certain which was better...... brush and commutator vs. induction, they also kept the "old reliable" in production.   Bad example but you can still buy an iPhone 4 even though there are completely new operating systems in the iPhone 5s.  The induction "Meston" was an improvement on the "old reliable".   They would advertise it as such.   

GE Pancakes were never called pancakes by GE.....  I'm so friggin confused by all this I could scream.   We are trying to get into the minds of 30 factory workers and what they intended. I posted earlier that this is the golden age of fan making.  In a few years fans started to degrade in quality and in beauty and making them cheaper and more affordable was the balance manufacturers faced.  Tri-pods were a little cheaper being made with cast iron, steel cages, and so on.   The induction Meston was an improvement in every way, not a downgrade.   Also ...... repeating.   Has an original million wire Meston cage ever been found?

As far as a name goes...... I vote for,  "hanging Meston" ....... I still view it as a Meston.  At least this morning.  Oh and Russ, I enjoyed our discussion very much too.  Hobbies are so healthy, I try to not make them all consuming but that's a loosing battle sometimes.  

Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 04:35 pm by John Trier

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 06:42 pm
   
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Ron Jeter
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John T, - Several years ago a "million wire guard" showed up on ebay with a buy-it-now for $75.00  - I called a friend of mine in Texas who owns two Mestons  he won the auction, but never received the guard - seller was probably offer a larger sum of money.  I have noticed that a lot of photos posted, seems to always show the back side of the motor - anyone got some front photos?

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 07:17 pm
   
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Steve Stephens
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John Trier wrote:  The induction Meston was an improvement in every way, not a downgrade.  

As far as a name goes...... I vote for,  "hanging Meston" ....... I still view it as a Meston. 
It seems to me if the back switch 1895-96 Emerson Induction motor was a Meston in any way that Emerson or some publication would attach the name "Meston" to it in the literature or catalogs but that was not done.  Why?  Remember that a Meston is a brush and commutator motor and that is mentioned in both Emerson catalogs and other publications of the day.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 08:11 pm
   
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Steve Cunningham
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My friend Steve and I disagree on this. To me, Meston was a name of a line if fans. Not unlike Seabreeze, or Northwind. I think if it's marked Meston, it's a Meston.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 08:12 pm
   
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Steve Cunningham
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What is a million wire guard?

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 08:22 pm
   
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Steve Stephens
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Steve Cunningham wrote: My friend Steve and I disagree on this. To me, Meston was a name of a line if fans. Not unlike Seabreeze, or Northwind. I think if it's marked Meston, it's a Meston.
Please read (again) the first two sentences on p. 18 in this 1896 Emerson catalog under "SPECIAL DIRECTIONS FOR FAN MOTORS".

To me those statements leave no doubt that a Meston motor has brushes and commutator and that the Induction Motor is not a Meston.

http://www.fancollectors.org/Emerson1/Images/ads/1896%20Emerson%20Fan%20Catalog.pdf

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 08:43 pm
   
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Ron Jeter
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Steve C. Photo of "million wire guard"

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 08:48 pm
   
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Steve Cunningham
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I think mine has that guard.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 08:55 pm
   
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Steve Stephens
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Emerson called that guard a "Close Guard" and it is shown on p. 9 of the 1896 catalog, link just above.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 08:58 pm
   
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Ron Jeter
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The Guard is shown on page 21 of the 1898 cat.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 08:59 pm
   
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Fred Berry
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Well, here is the one that is on page two of this thread. I am fairly certain that this is the guard you are talking about. OSHA approved...

One thing is for certain...All the patents and diagrams and factory photos just prove that these Emerson fans were the very best ever made. ALOT of company pride went into these antique fans...The same pride that went into these old Meston line of motors also went into the 776XX line of motors.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 10:40 pm
   
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John Trier
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Steve Cunningham wrote: What is a million wire guard?
I just don't know what to call it.....  Does this guard have an official name?   And ..... are there any originals in the club or known for sure?  And Ron J ....... very interesting about the ebay guard.   Where a bouts unknown?   That's one swell cage.  

Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 10:45 pm by John Trier

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 10:47 pm
   
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Russ Huber
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Steve Cunningham wrote: My friend Steve and I disagree on this. To me, Meston was a name of a line if fans.
I feel the same way, BUT.....Steveo has a number of trade journals in his favor.  There is more than one clearly defined difference in the early electrical books between the induction desk fan and the "old reliable" MESTON brushed desk fan.
 
 

Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 10:51 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 11:30 pm
   
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John Trier
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Steve Stephens wrote: Not I; Emerson named their fans.   I will probably just call it as they did and add the year(s) model.   Better yet:  Meston, 1895-96 tripod, 1897 tripod, and 1898-01 tripod.   Lots of ways to name them aren't there?

Clearly, Emerson had a new motor to place on the market.  The induction motor.  But they placed it into a Meston body.   It looks basically the same.   The only physical appearance difference is the hanging switch.   Does Emerson "name" any of their fans?   Don't they simply have type numbers.   What do they call the 1897 tripod.  What does Emerson call the 98 and 99 tripods?    Seems like the only "name" ever given to a fan is the original "Meston".   We have coined names for fans....... I cannot imagine calling the "hanging Meston" anything other than a Meston.   The guys in the factory certainly wanted the world to know that a NEW motor was on the market but they also advertised it as having the appearance of a Meston.   I feel that was by design, as it lasted for years which lends credence to the "hanging switch Meston".    

Even in the 1890's the original Meston had 2 names.   "Meston" and "old reliable"

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 Posted: Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 11:37 pm
   
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Bill Hoehn
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ONE MORE TRY  
 
It appears there is only one, or possibly two, people left still calling Meston fans Emersons despite all common sense and human logic!  The statement quoted many times by several people, "Our 'Old Reliable' Meston" was first used in 1896 along with "TYPE M. 1--10,000 in Constant Use" and showing it with the hanging switch is proof enough for the rest of the world, especially those fortunate enough to own the New Mestons.  There is no logical reason to refer to your old model other than the fact that you have come out with a new model---Meston!
 
In 1897, they again use the Old Reliable Meston terminology and introduce the "M. 2,  3=Inch Fan Motor.  No, I'm not going there!  
 
From Ron's wonderful work and Jim's before him, we have the number of hanging switch Mestons listed and from these numbers ranging from first to last, so far, it is obvious that Emerson produced at least that number of each model.  As some famous person often remarks, "fact Jack".  
 
The class designations FI 1 & FI 2 were used throughout all tripods, Meston and Emerson, differentiating the 12 and 16 inch models (with some 15 inch).  The Type System had not yet been introduced.  
 
From 2013 data, the latest I have, the following is concluded.  There is later data with several more Mestons appearing since I started this thread. 
1st, introduced in the 1893 catalog (but supplied in 1892) the Meston tripod Series AA numbers from 8,470 to 11,174 = at least 2,704 fans (IVS).
Tripod Meston Series A numbers from 1,338 to 9,598 = at least 8,260.
Tripod Meston Class FI 1 numbers from 29 to 900 = at least 871 (Hanging Switch).
EI 1, EI 2, FI 1, and FI 2 Emerson tripod numbers from 21,326 to 40,399 = at least 19,073.  
Why is someone, with the knowledge and capability, not acquiring and posting the 1892 first catalog of Emerson's, which is now in the public domain at the Mo. Historical Society?  I would if I could. This, as stated before, will bring to every ones attention the fact that it was impossible for Emerson to have been making all of the products listed.  Jobbers?
 
Also by 1893 Emerson listed, with addresses, 22 agents in 16 different States, the Oklahoma Territory and England, Agents for Great Britain and the Continent.   
 
I'm still having fun and don't believe there is any disagreement about 1898 and later.   

Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 11:53 pm by Bill Hoehn

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 12:07 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Russ Huber wrote: Steve Cunningham wrote: My friend Steve and I disagree on this. To me, Meston was a name of a line if fans.
I feel the same way, BUT.....Steveo has a number of trade journals in his favor.  There is more than one clearly defined difference in the early electrical books between the induction desk fan and the "old reliable" MESTON brushed desk fan.
 
 

Word for Word from the March 27, 1897 Electrical World, second paragraph down far top left under the title "Induction desk and Ceiling Fans" in the Electrical World book link provided below. Page 431. Take notice in the direct quote below no mention of..... "old reliable"
 
"The induction desk fan (Fig. 1) reassembles somewhat the "Meston" motors which are manufactured by this company, and which have made an excellent reputation."
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=zulAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA431&dq=Emerson+Induction+desk+fan+Meston++1897&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d5PeU62aJ4eayATKs4GYAQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Emerson%20Induction%20desk%20fan%20Meston%20%201897&f=false

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Last edited on Mon Aug 4th, 2014 12:08 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 12:20 am
   
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Russ Huber
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NO CONTEST DIFFERENTIATION:
 
"Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor."
 
Its General Appearance Is Like Our Celebrated "Meston" Motor."
 
 

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1896 Emerson catalog p_7.jpg

Last edited on Mon Aug 4th, 2014 12:21 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 01:48 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Why is someone, with the knowledge and capability, not acquiring and posting the 1892 first catalog of Emerson's, which is now in the public domain at the Mo. Historical Society?  I would if I could. This, as stated before, will bring to every ones attention the fact that it was impossible for Emerson to have been making all of the products listed.  Jobbers?
 
  

Emerson was not in any way shape or form established as an electrical contractor, jobber, or agency. Purely and simply as a manufacturer. So what you see offered on the Emerson advertisement, is what they manufactured....fact Jack.  

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Last edited on Mon Aug 4th, 2014 02:33 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 01:49 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Advertisement in the above posted book.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 05:47 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Russ,
 I can hardly wait until you get the 78 page 1892 catalog, with products like the "AYER" ARC LIGHT CUT-OUT, 30 foot cast iron trolley line poles, 28 foot trolley iron cectre line poles, SURGICAL AND DENTAL LAMPS, and of course the Meston Alternating Fan Motor with the two models listed as previously noted. Looking at the addresses and sites, it is hard for me to believe they are big enough to house the foundries and other equipment and facilities to produce everything in this catalog.  I hope you get the catalog soon and am anxious to get your opinion after you have had time to peruse it.
 
 

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 06:29 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ,
 I can hardly wait until you get the 78 page 1892 catalog, with products like the "AYER" ARC LIGHT CUT-OUT, 30 foot cast iron trolley line poles, 28 foot trolley iron cectre line poles, SURGICAL AND DENTAL LAMPS, and of course the Meston Alternating Fan Motor with the two models listed as previously noted. Looking at the addresses and sites, it is hard for me to believe they are big enough to house the foundries and other equipment and facilities to produce everything in this catalog.  I hope you get the catalog soon and am anxious to get your opinion after you have had time to peruse it.
 
 

Bill, what is listed in the above posted Emerson advertisement may be for most part their product? Much of it is listed being introduced is in their 91 product line. Some of it even patented. 
 
I will not dismiss the distinct possibility Emerson in their catalogue promoted  other manufacturer's product related to the benefit of their product sales sold through their primary agency in Chicago.....the Electrical Appliance Company.
 
One hand washes the other. Emerson may of promoted another manufacturer through their catalogue by promoting additional sales and support to their life line....their agency. 

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 06:53 am
   
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Steve Cunningham
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If the backswitch induction was advertised as an Emerson fan, I may have to change my thoughts.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 07:09 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Steve Cunningham wrote: If the backswitch induction was advertised as an Emerson fan, I may have to change my thoughts.Is there any doubt that the back switch Induction Motor fan was advertised as an Emerson?  Here is a copy from the 1896 Emerson catalog .pdf that you sent me Steve.  Everything on the page about this fans says "Emerson" and "Induction Motor" but nothing about "Meston" or the Induction fan motor being a Meston.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 07:14 am
   
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Steve Cunningham
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Steve, I think you convinced me. Emerson may well have been using up, old Meston end bells on the new fans. But if it was advertised as an Emerson, that counts a lot.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 07:16 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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This page is from the same 1896 Emerson catalog showing the Meston Fan Motor.  I see no connection between this Meston and the Emerson Induction fan motors in the catalog.  Each is a different model with a different name and constructed differently from each other.  Both do probably share the same front motor end bell casting with MESTON 1/8 HP AC MOTOR cast into the bell.  A sharing of parts between the Meston and the Emerson Induction does not mean that each motor is a Meston and, in fact, later models of the back hanging switch had cast into them EMERSON INDUCTION MOTOR.  The Meston has brushes and a commutator; the Induction motor does not.

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1896 Emerson Catalog, Meston fan motor, p.4.jpg

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 02:51 pm
   
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John Trier
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Steve Stephens wrote: This page is from the same 1896 Emerson catalog showing the Meston Fan Motor.  I see no connection between this Meston and the Emerson Induction fan motors in the catalog.  Each is a different model with a different name and constructed differently from each other.  Both do probably share the same front motor end bell casting with MESTON 1/8 HP AC MOTOR cast into the bell.  A sharing of parts between the Meston and the Emerson Induction does not mean that each motor is a Meston and, in fact, later models of the back hanging switch had cast into them EMERSON INDUCTION MOTOR.  The Meston has brushes and a commutator; the Induction motor does not.
I don't know anyone who would dispute the evolution of the original Meston.   The new induction motor, fits inside the old parts already available and in production.   The end result visually looks like a Meston.  It appears by the advertisements that both fans were thought highly of and both were advertised and available.  Are we just agonizing about what to call it?  We are not agonizing over what to call the 97 tripod or the 98-01 tripod. 

  Question:  In 1897, were there 3 fans being offered?  The 97, the hanging meston and the old reliable?   If so..... what was the purpose of the 97?  A cheaper fan?  What year did the hanging meston leave or exit the market?   I look at the price @$30-$35 as a months wage for the average worker.  If the 97 was $25, that would be a significant savings and a reason for it to compete with the other 2 fans. 

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 08:27 pm
   
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Steve Stephens
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John Trier wrote:  Are we just agonizing about what to call it? 

  Question:  In 1897, were there 3 fans being offered?  The 97, the hanging switch induction motor and the old reliable?   

I feel it is important for historical accuracy to call things by the name that the making company used.  Now that the information has become available why not adhere to what Emerson called and advertised their different models as?

I only have the 1896 and 1898 catalogs so can't say what was being offered in 1897 but might guess that the 1897 model replaced the earlier hanging switch Induction Motor fan of 1895-96 and was probably a modification of the earlier design in several respects such as the elimination of the bronze covers, the finish, and a different switch.   If you are still calling the back switch Induction Motor from 1895-96 a "Meston" you may not have understood some of this thread about why it is not a Meston.   I know that old habits die hard and so many, I included, have thought that all bronze bell Emersons are Mestons.  Only when I really got to reading and looking at some fans did I realize that is not so.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 08:41 pm
   
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Tom Dreesen
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Steve Stephens wrote: John Trier wrote:  Are we just agonizing about what to call it? 

  Question:  In 1897, were there 3 fans being offered?  The 97, the hanging switch induction motor and the old reliable?   

I feel it is important for historical accuracy to call things by the name that the making company used.  Now that the information has become available why not adhere to what Emerson called and advertised their different models as?

I only have the 1896 and 1898 catalogs so can't say what was being offered in 1897 but might guess that the 1897 model replaced the earlier hanging switch Induction Motor fan of 1895-96 and was probably a modification of the earlier design in several respects such as the elimination of the bronze covers, the finish, and a different switch.   If you are still calling the back switch Induction Motor from 1895-96 a "Meston" you may not have understood some of this thread about why it is not a Meston.   I know that old habits die hard and so many, I included, have thought that all bronze bell Emersons are Mestons.  Only when I really got to reading and looking at some fans did I realize that is not so.

It is beyond reason to think that Emerson was using up parts for years and it is also unlikely that they were saving money by not getting new molds.

They intentionally left the Meston end bell in production.

You can ignore what your eye sees, but you will be in the minority.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 09:12 pm
   
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George Durbin
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Gentlemen!
 
Just like I said earlier in a post. These young companies used every thing up and were not shackled by laws and rules used now days... If left over parts fit or worked they used them...There is no telling what combinations came from the factory. All of these publications should only be considered suggestions as to what was coming from the factories... I dont think any thing published should be considered as gospel. Now the info from the factory will be more accurate when all is considered... I am talking about production numbers and changes in product made on the fly. I do not get too hung up with publications about new product or what it finally looked like in the saturday evening post or other publications in those early days...   JMHO...
 
geo...

Last edited on Mon Aug 4th, 2014 09:14 pm by George Durbin

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 10:08 pm
   
398th Post
Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: Gentlemen!
 
Just like I said earlier in a post. These young companies used every thing up and were not shackled by laws and rules used now days... If left over parts fit or worked they used them...There is no telling what combinations came from the factory. All of these publications should only be considered suggestions as to what was coming from the factories... I dont think any thing published should be considered as gospel. Now the info from the factory will be more accurate when all is considered... I am talking about production numbers and changes in product made on the fly. I do not get too hung up with publications about new product or what it finally looked like in the saturday evening post or other publications in those early days...   JMHO...
 
geo...

Think about it Geo.

Leftover parts that last you years?  A few months maybe.

Never happened.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 10:15 pm
   
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George Durbin
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Hi Tom!
I am just talking about change overs and end of runs. And during runs... They was guaranteed for ever I believe...  you owned a fan for 5 yrs, what did they send to repair it?... There were fan repair shops. There are many explanations for all these fans... Never?  ;)  C'mon man!  ;)
Geo...

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 Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2014 10:17 pm
   
400th Post
Michael Rathberger
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I'm happy now I was out bid on the two in St. Louis, if I had won, I would even know what to call it...

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AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Pre-1950 (Antique) > Missing Link Found in Saint Louis Top



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