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Missing Link Found in Saint Louis  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2014 08:02 pm
   
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Russ Huber
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This would be the 92 foundation of the "old reliable" MESTON brushed fan motor engineered by Alexander Meston.  The patent was filed August 1, 1892. 
 
Alexander must of had the Tesla complex.....they must not of been all bent on getting their inventions filed for patent before they hit the market.  Alexander was late for his patent filings on both the cone and tripod base fan motors. In numerous cases I have witnessed patented product is on the market at the time of the patent filing. 
 
https://www.google.com/patents/US526083?dq=526083&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ygvhU8-bH8euyATIq4CIBQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA

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 Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2014 08:03 pm
   
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Russ Huber
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.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2014 08:27 pm
   
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Russ Huber
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What this claims Charles Meston did.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2014 09:04 pm
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Thanks very much for the Meston brothers detail and genealogy
That should help in my continuing search for the first of the cone based motors.
It seems like the most logical place to find it, is here, and possibly with one of the descendants. 

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 Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2014 09:26 pm
   
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Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Thanks very much for the Meston brothers detail and genealogy
That should help in my continuing search for the first of the cone based motors.
It seems like the most logical place to find it, is here, and possibly with one of the descendants. 

My surgery has kept me quiet on the couch for most part.  I am not even supposed to drive until my follow up soon. So....it has been to my great satisfaction that I have this pile of plastic crap on my lap and Google books.
 
I haven't been to so much as a GP in a decade.  After this BS surgery heals it will be back to an apple a day and hopefully I will be 6 feet under before I have to see another white coat with a stethoscope.   Your Welcome.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 02:46 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Russ,
Hope you're progressing well from your recent surgery. 
I've been doing a little more surgery recently--all minor.  I still keep up my medical license, but it is now limited, after only 56 years since internship.
I haven't worn a white coat in decades. A large part of my practice was OB (including home deliveries) and Pediatrics. I found the white coat scared too many children and even some adults.
Stay on the right side of the grass!

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 03:18 am
   
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John Trier
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Russ Huber wrote: What this claims Charles Meston did.
Russ ..... This article explains what Charles Meston did.  In conjunction with A W Meston they invented the first commercially successful Alternating current fan motor.   That's significant.  Charles was involved in all the improvements, full supervision and patents... and the induction ceiling fan and so on.   To me this is the most important piece of information yet uncovered.  It says to me that the new improved hanging meston is indeed a meston ........ It just wasn't given the Meston name in the advertising cuts.  Why?   To advertise the new induction motor and to not confuse it with the "old reliable"    Charles Meston was all over every improvement or change and had his fingerprints on everything and was indeed...... "Charles in Charge".   

Emerson .... the way I see it, only named one fan as they entered into the fan business.   Their very first and they called it a Meston.   No other fan was honored with a name.   The hanging Meston carried his name cast into the motor housing, had the look and form.    They just didn't choose to use the Meston name in the advertising.  The Meston was simply improved with an induction motor and hanging switch.   What would the factory workers call it, if they were asked to give it a name?     I would guess they'd say something like ........ "I dunno, the improved Meston"......

Last edited on Wed Aug 6th, 2014 04:13 am by John Trier

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 03:46 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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John Trier wrote:  They just didn't choose to use the Meston name in the advertising.  The Meston was simply improved with an induction motor and hanging switch.Nor did they use the Meston name in their own catalogs for the "Emerson Induction" Motor

I think the quotes used with "Meston" and "Alternating Induction" motors pretty much tell the story of what Emerson called these two different fan motors.

P. 11 of the Emerson 1898 catalog:
External Appearance and General Construction.--In external appearance our 1897 models of Induction Motors will present the same general design as out "Meston" Motors, which have become known in almost every part of the world where the alternating current it used.

There, in the last year of a hanging switch Emerson Induction fan motor and the last year of the Meston fan motor that were in an Emerson catalog, the separation of names between the Meston and the Emerson Induction motors are still maintained.  NOBODY can show me any connection in name between any brush and commutator "Meston" and the hanging switch "Emerson Induction" fan motors.  If the latter were a Meston there surely would be something in print explaining it.

Some of you seem to be making assumptions and not reading and learning from what the Emerson 1896 and 1898 catalogs make pretty clear; "Meston" is a brush and commutator motor, 'Emerson Induction' motor has no brushes nor a commutator.  The newer Emerson Induction motor is not an "improved" Meston motor but a new kind of motor referred to many times in print by Emerson as their "Emerson Induction" motor.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 04:01 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Another comment from Paul Pierson:

"By the way, has anyone explained why they stopped using the Meston name in the first place?  Seems like it coincided with the end of the "Meston" motor!!!!!"

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 04:21 am
   
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George Durbin
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Hi Everyone!

It's just fans and discussion of fans that we are all fans of...Now for the record: i will kiss anyone's butt if I figure I can get a fan out of the deal.:D  Along the way if that means we are nice and civil then that's a pretty good deal...
I think my wife has said it best when I was getting worked up about a fan deal gone bad...  She said we act like a buncha bit*chy little girls!Hurt my feelings some, I sucked it up and ageed...
This thread is still good reading and has legs...

Geo...



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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 07:08 am
   
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Russ Huber
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The MESTON name disappeared after the remaining stock of the long term AC brush motor was sold out in 98. That is a heads up.  The brushed MESTON was introduced in 91, and remained on the market with what appears to be annual improvements(significant and small).  Improvements to the MESTON at the time of the introduction of the alternating induction desk fan in what appears to be 95 may of slowed down or stopped.  But the MESTON brushed fan motor sold out in 98.
 
For John Trier please take time to read the short article on Charles Meston over again. It appears Charles had to fill some big shoes when his brother left the planet in 93. It appears Charles started to shine with the introduction of the alternating ceiling fan in 95.  He more than likely designed the back lever AC induction brushless fan motor? But moving into the late 90s Charles was gaining significant momentum with his electrical and mechanical contributions. His patents validate my statement.  Then came lifer engineer Herbert Finch I believe around the turn of the century. Finch played a major part in the evolution of the oscillating mechanism.
 
When Emerson Electric was established in 90 John Emerson sat in the big chair and opened his wallet, Charles managed the books(secretary) and Alexander was the consulting engineer.
 
Emerson was a busy place straight through the 90s.  Emerson finally established their own eastern agency in the Electrical exchange building(NY) in 1900. Emerson alternating current fans came in to NY from St. Louis by the box car. Emerson was whining around 04 about fans sales. That year and a few years prior the weather was a tad on the cool side during fan motor season. 

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 08:27 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ,
Hope you're progressing well from your recent surgery. 
I've been doing a little more surgery recently--all minor.  I still keep up my medical license, but it is now limited, after only 56 years since internship.
I haven't worn a white coat in decades. A large part of my practice was OB (including home deliveries) and Pediatrics. I found the white coat scared too many children and even some adults.
Stay on the right side of the grass!

I have had back surgery that makes this surgery a cake walk.  Obstetrics and pediatrics would appear to me a more rewarding medical profession. Bringing infants into the world, and helping sick children pull the best from within us. 
 
As far as surgeons go, it takes a great deal of confidence, knowledge, and artistic talent to hack away every day and do it right on the money.  In this day and age a mistake with the knife could strip you of much of what you worked for years and years of your life. 
 
Respectively said, many surgeons tend to be rather egotistical and arrogant, especially neurosurgeons. I suppose they d amn near have to be to make that knife do its magic on the money a number of times a day.  The good part is I don't have live with them. I'll leave that task up to their significant other.

Last edited on Wed Aug 6th, 2014 08:30 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 01:48 pm
   
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John Trier
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I did read that cut about 3 times.  I found that it supported the notion of the back lever Meston was indeed a Meston since Charles Meston was up to his elbows in its design and patents.   He kept the appearance virtually the same and kept the name right on the fan.  Yes, and it was a different motor.  It was their 2nd fan and they made a conscious decision to keep it's appearance the same and the name right on the fan.    The fact that they did that should give this side of the argument credibility.   It would have taken little time or effort to make a new fan body and create a new appearance.  Emerson did emphasis the new induction technology in their advertising. 

Also:  I enjoyed your comment about neurosurgeons.   I can testify first hand that no doctor feeds at the bird feeder before the neurosurgeon.
Russ Huber wrote: For John Trier please take time to read the short article on Charles Meston over again. It appears Charles had to fill some big shoes when his brother left the planet in 93. It appears Charles started to shine with the introduction of the alternating ceiling fan in 95.  He more than likely designed the back lever AC induction brushless fan motor? But moving into the late 90s Charles was gaining significant momentum with his electrical and mechanical contributions. His patents validate my statement.  Then came lifer engineer Herbert Finch I believe around the turn of the century. Finch played a major part in the evolution of the oscillating mechanism.
 


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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 04:54 pm
   
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Bill Hoehn
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I started this thread to learn about my unusual hanging switch Meston and did not wish to stir up any controversy. Strange how some people can distort a very positive event into an extremely negative one. Why?
 
All of the differences between my new one and all of the other hanging switch Mestons have now been answered, mainly with Russ's help, persistence and expertise.  Without his help identifying my Gemerson, I would probably never have found the source of that blade (the same as on the Gemerson with the shaft hole drilled through the center).
 
The ring adapter shows up on the unique 1897 hanging switch Meston as also discovered based on this further research of ours. This also explains the knockdown guard with the adapter.
 
This shows what positive work, sharing of knowledge, ignoring the distractors, sticking to facts, (whatever there source), having the time, interest and direct access to the fans, can produce.
 
Special thanks to Ron, Russ, John T., Stefan, Jack J., Geoff, Jeff W., Mark B., Dan H. and all the others who helped solve my mystery. Sorry if I omitted anyone.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 05:52 pm
   
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Michael Rathberger
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Bill Hoehn wrote:  Strange how some people can distort a very positive event into an extremely negative one. Why?
 

The whole post was a good read although I got lost half way through. I think someone smarter than me once said "No good deed goes unpunished."

Regardless, the information was instructive and it's now in the archives on the site, so if I ever run across the 10% of these (my own estimate) that are yet to be found, I'll know what I'm looking at.

Thanks

 

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 07:07 pm
   
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Russ Huber
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Michael Rathberger wrote:
If I ever run across the 10% of these (my own estimate) that are yet to be found, I'll know what I'm looking at.

Thanks

 
 
It states 10,000 "IN USE" on this advertisement in July of 95.  So this would more than likely not even credit the Emerson alternating induction desk fans and brushed MESTON fan motors manufactured for the 95 fan motor season. So, at the end of the 95 season you could "roughly" figure about 12,000 Emerson desk fans in circulation. Now the ratio of Emerson back lever induction desk fans made as compared to the brushed MESTONS between the years of 95-97....? 
 
I would lean toward Emerson focusing on higher yields of the Emerson back lever induction desk fans over the brushed MESTON based on the increasing acceptance of the AC 60 hertz system through the 95-97 seasons.
 
My impression of the Emerson cone base MESTON production of 91 would not be good.  It was stated Emerson had an order for the cone base in 91 from Panama. My impression is the boys hand made roughly 800 to maybe exceeding 1000 give or take a few hundred cone base MESTON fan motors in the 91 season.
    
 
The sad news is I read Emerson sent one order alone of around $1500 worth of fan motors out of the country. Their Foreign shipments through the Meston production years of 91 through 97 would account for why you have a much reduced chance of having one on your shelf.    

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Last edited on Wed Aug 6th, 2014 07:10 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 08:33 pm
   
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Michael Rathberger
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Russ, I should have worded it more carefully, I really meant 10% of survivors, not 10% of the original manufactured quantity.

I'll think harder about a vacation to Panama though...

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 Posted: Wed Aug 6th, 2014 10:52 pm
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Russ,
 
The production numbers for all of these Emerson fans (including the H.S.{easier than using hanging switch Mestons}) are available in post 383, thanks to Ron's survey. By using his data of all reported specimens, it is easy to extrapolate and to come up with close production figures, as I have done.
 
As stated before, there were at least 871 H.S. Meston fans produced.
"fact Jack" :)

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 02:58 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Russ,  
 
After reviewing your "What Year Did Emerson First Offer A Direct Current Motor ?", it dawned on me that we need to team up.  
 
You, with your youth, tech savvy & resources, persistence, accuracy--usually:) and all the flattery you can imagine for a future partner, would , of course, be the junior partner, and gain a personal physician, without a white coat.  
 
And yours truly, with my age, wisdom, wit, catalogs and fan supply and B.S. would be the senior-- at least in age.  Incidentally, everyone knows what B.S. stands for, but I doubt if everyone knows that M.S. stands for More of the Same, and P.H.D. stands for Piled Higher and Deeper.  Right, Stefan?  
 
On a serious note, that brings on more rambling from the old man.  When I was graduated from medical school, one of my professors offered me a position as the private physician to the Rockefeller family. They had asked him, a trusted friend, to choose someone for them.  We considered it, but decided it would not be challenging enough and too limiting in scope.  
 
What do you think about teaming up?  :) 

Last edited on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 03:03 am by Bill Hoehn

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 04:16 am
   
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George Durbin
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Hi Bill!
 
I dont know any one higher up in the food chain to suck up to so here I go with some humor... I didnt know what P>H>D> really stood for till your explanation...
You also mentioned something about bs... My best friend is an engineer so I know what I am talking about here... Do you know what the difference is between cowboys boots and engineers boots? Cowboys boots have the bs on the out side of them!    ;)
 
 
geo...

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 05:03 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Hey! George,

I'm well stocked in goodies, in case you stop by again.

One of our sons is an engineer with Emerson, but he doesn't wear boots--darn it!

E.B.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 06:59 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ,   
 
When I was graduated from medical school, one of my professors offered me a position as the private physician to the Rockefeller family.  

Be glad you chose your medical field. Far more rewarding, makes you all warm and tingly inside.
 
This guy shown in the image probably needed frequent use of stool softeners. Then again maybe he downed a shot or two of Standard oil just before bedtime to keep him regular.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 07:05 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ,   
 
What do you think about teaming up?  :) 

We did. There will be another time.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 09:38 am
   
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Josh Backens
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Such a deep, long conversation that I haven't really followed. I'm honestly surprised Dreeson hasn't come along to make a little fun out of this :?. Not to be a downer...... Just think it's funny from time to time lol. Ok, back to reading this ever long post to see if I have something worthwhile to say. 

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 09:57 am
   
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Russ Huber
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1898

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 09:58 am
   
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Russ Huber
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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 09:59 am
   
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Russ Huber
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1900

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 09:59 am
   
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Russ Huber
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1900

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 10:01 am
   
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Russ Huber
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1901.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 10:02 am
   
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Russ Huber
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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 10:03 am
   
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Russ Huber
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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 10:37 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Morning Partner,
I see the D.C. fans in post 466 are Paragons not Emersons. Good work again. I think I'll keep you for a partner, but you're on probation for 6 months. :)


If no one else (Gerry, Dan, Mark B,, Mark D., John H., Steve, Gary, Larry, John R., Rich, Ric, Bob, etc.), is going to get you that '92 Emerson catalog at the Hysterical Society, I may, and mail it to you. :)

That will give me a chance to acquire new material for us. :)

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 11:10 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Morning Partner,
I see the D.C. fans in post 466 are Paragons.

George Towle had the charter to make Paragon fan motors exclusively for the 98 season. Martin Insull and Sammy(Chicago Edison) bought out J. P. William's entire Paragon Exhibit in NY in 97. After the 98 Towle Charter, J. P. Williams falls from the books as does his NY based agency in 99. The Insulls bought him out and sent him to the Bahamas drinking Mai Tais.  
 
General Incandescent absorbs the Paragon fan and motor company of Lancaster and moves the factory to NY. For 99 the Paragon desk fan sports a new face, and a new Paragon CF is introduced in the same year.   

Last edited on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 11:12 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 02:35 pm
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Russ,

We have one more thing in common--not sleeping!

Another ramble. One time while working a 36 hour shift as an Intern, I was called to check an elderly patient for some reason I've forgotten. Holding on to the edge of the bed while this beautiful nurse was describing the patients problem, I fell asleep, standing up! She did find some way to awaken me!

Thinking of other fan related lists I've started, but will never finish, are some of Emerson's fans that are in the literature but never produced.

Also, there are those that we know were produced, own and enjoy, but were never listed as such in their literature.

There is no way I can live long enough to even read all of my catalogs, books, letters etc. from Emerson.

One of the latter executives took it upon himself to have several of the earliest catalogs beautifully leather bound. Looks pretty, but ruins them for my old type of copying flat. Thankfully I did all of my copying years before he had his binding done!

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 07:59 pm
   
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Tom Dreesen
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Josh Backens wrote: Such a deep, long conversation that I haven't really followed. I'm honestly surprised Dreeson hasn't come along to make a little fun out of this :?. Not to be a downer...... Just think it's funny from time to time lol. Ok, back to reading this ever long post to see if I have something worthwhile to say.
Keep reading.

And it is DreesEn.

If you attempt to scold me, at least get the name correct.

Keep it up, worthwhile or not, but flattery will get you anywhere.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 7th, 2014 11:42 pm
   
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Steve Stephens
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1896 Western Electrician ad:

In 1896 Emerson was making and selling two lines of desk fans as shown in the ad below:  
"Meston" 
Induction

There is no mention of a Meston with hanging switch or an "improved Meston".   Just MESTON and INDUCTION fan motors.

https://archive.org/stream/westernelectrici18chic#page/n855/mode/1up


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Last edited on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 12:01 am by Steve Stephens

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 Posted: Fri Aug 8th, 2014 03:13 am
   
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John Trier
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What is it about this thread and this debate that keeps me thinking about it all day long?  Is this a new angle?   No one questions there was a new fan with a new and completely different motor.   The company named the first motor and fan a "Meston" probably due to the fact that Emerson was just founded and Alexander Meston was their king and was honored with a name.  Nothing else was ever named....... ever.   (Induction motor is not really a name, it's a description)    However, ..... how much weight do we give the fact that the new induction fan (#2 in their line, ever) was designed by Charles Meston, carried virtually the same appearance and also had the name "Meston" cast right into the motor housing?     It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work of deciding how to proceed with this hanging Meston fan issue.  I don't think the factory or the company gave it a second thought. 



Steve Stephens wrote: 1896 Western Electrician ad:

In 1896 Emerson was making and selling two lines of desk fans as shown in the ad below:  
"Meston" 
Induction

There is no mention of a Meston with hanging switch or an "improved Meston".   Just MESTON and INDUCTION fan motors.

https://archive.org/stream/westernelectrici18chic#page/n855/mode/1up



Last edited on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 03:16 am by John Trier

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 Posted: Fri Aug 8th, 2014 03:35 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Emerson did have to go and confuse the matter by using the Meston casting for the front casting of their Induction Motor didn't they?    I see past that confusing but see how others probably won't.  Eventually Emerson decided to change the front casting to read Induction Motor and not Meston.  I'm still looking for the photo I have that shows both names on the front bell.

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 Posted: Fri Aug 8th, 2014 03:48 am
   
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Steve Cunningham
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What is that "object" in the cut at about 4:00 O'Clock on the back of the fan motor? Sure looks like the end if ax switch lever to me.

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 Posted: Fri Aug 8th, 2014 04:00 am
   
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Tom Dreesen
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John Trier wrote: What is it about this thread and this debate that keeps me thinking about it all day long?  Is this a new angle?   No one questions there was a new fan with a new and completely different motor.   The company named the first motor and fan a "Meston" probably due to the fact that Emerson was just founded and Alexander Meston was their king and was honored with a name.  Nothing else was ever named....... ever.   (Induction motor is not really a name, it's a description)    However, ..... how much weight do we give the fact that the new induction fan (#2 in their line, ever) was designed by Charles Meston, carried virtually the same appearance and also had the name "Meston" cast right into the motor housing?     It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work of deciding how to proceed with this hanging Meston fan issue.  I don't think the factory or the company gave it a second thought. 



Steve Stephens wrote: 1896 Western Electrician ad:

In 1896 Emerson was making and selling two lines of desk fans as shown in the ad below:  
"Meston" 
Induction

There is no mention of a Meston with hanging switch or an "improved Meston".   Just MESTON and INDUCTION fan motors.

https://archive.org/stream/westernelectrici18chic#page/n855/mode/1up




"Nothing else was ever named....... ever."

Silver Swan and Golden Jubilee come to mind ...

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