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Missing Link Found in Saint Louis  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Mon Jul 13th, 2015 10:17 pm
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Russ,

I had forgotten that the 1891 Meston would run on Direct Current, as well as any other--Alternating, Heisler Series and Arc Systems.

When GE got involved with the Gemerson they screwed it up and it only runs on DC.  Even their switch works backward--Off to the right and On to the left.

 110 DC first; 

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Last edited on Mon Jul 13th, 2015 10:25 pm by Bill Hoehn

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 Posted: Mon Jul 13th, 2015 10:18 pm
   
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Bill Hoehn
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& back;

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 Posted: Mon Jul 13th, 2015 10:20 pm
   
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Bill Hoehn
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& here on 110 AC--even tried a boost in both directions;

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 Posted: Mon Jul 13th, 2015 10:22 pm
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Running like a typical GE.

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Last edited on Mon Jul 13th, 2015 10:26 pm by Bill Hoehn

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 Posted: Tue Jul 14th, 2015 04:06 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Despite repeated catalog references and explanations, some still question the 1898, 1899 and 1900 Emerson switches. I'll add pictures from each years catalogs to try again.

The 1898 catalog page 27 has been shown before;

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 Posted: Tue Jul 14th, 2015 04:10 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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This is the 1899 catalog page 20;

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 Posted: Tue Jul 14th, 2015 04:14 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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next; Description in the 1900 catalog,  page 8,  

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 Posted: Tue Jul 14th, 2015 04:17 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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& last ;detailed picture page 20(1900).

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 Posted: Tue Jul 14th, 2015 05:37 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Despite repeated catalog references and explanations, some still question the 1898, 1899 and 1900 Emerson switches. I'll add pictures from each years catalogs to try again.
Thank you Bill.  You just posted several bits of good information that I had not seen before.  The reference to the binding posts and illustrations of 99 and 00 settle what I wanted to know.

Can we assume that Emerson used both white and black switches on their 1899 motors since both show up on parker blade tripods and both without the binding posts.  I don't expect that Emerson ever made that point clear.

As long as I have been hashing over the Emerson tripods trying to get the correct information there are a few details you posted that I don't think you or anyone had posted before.  Without access to catalog information it makes it hard to determine fact from guessing.  Again, thanks for your posts here.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 14th, 2015 05:50 am
   
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Gary Hagan
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Bill,
That Gemerson is truly a hybrid. Probably the coolest fan I have seen posted and probably one of the rarest. I am sure you have told the story in past post but when/where did you acquire it. Apart from your tripod and mestons where does it rank in terms of you favorite.. Way cool!

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 Posted: Tue Jul 14th, 2015 08:25 am
   
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Russ Huber
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.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 14th, 2015 08:26 am
   
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Russ Huber
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.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 14th, 2015 08:30 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Read between 20 & 30 on the upper left hand side of the GE DC motor patent description. Laminated stator. If it won't run on AC, it must be something with the way it is wired, more than likely the armature wind I would think.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 12:49 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Reviewing all of the tripod base Emerson catalogs,  and realizing there are old pictures or "cuts" in them, pizza and dated and undated stamped Parker blades  (4, 5 and 6 wing), varied color switches, and all of the changes Emerson notes from year to year,  I find one easy differentiation between the 1898 and 1899 models.  The other years are less confusing.

All tripods through 1898 had fixed bases and did not swivel.  With the introduction of the brackets in 1899, the "new" models now all swivel!  Assuming the bases and motors are original, and many are not, just remove the base to see if they swivel.  The earlier models have a projection fitting into a matching indentation to prevent swiveling.

I say remove to check because some swivel bases are so tight and frozen that it can be misinterpreted, without verifying.

This is the easiest proof of the year that I know of.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 01:53 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Great info Bill.  Do you have an 1898 tripod?  Photos if you do?

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 02:12 am
   
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Jim Kovar
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Alas, I wish I had a few tripods
to grace my fan shelves!  :pacifier:


I was reviewing some pics I have
on file and came across this FI 1.

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Last edited on Wed Jul 15th, 2015 02:20 am by Jim Kovar

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 02:13 am
   
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Jim Kovar
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I noticed what appears to be a
dowel pin, possibly tapered, driven
through the neck of the base.


Is that supposed to be?

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 02:38 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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I have a nice original '98, but took the base off to verify.  Here is the fixed base detail, which is not on the '99's.  I'll put it back together to show other details. 

I have never seen a pizza bladed '98 and doubt if they exist.  Don't know when production started with the undated "Patented and Patent applied for" models but assume they went ahead with the improved Parker blade with the start of '98 production.  I didn't get a date from the son of the man who hand cut out the first Parker blade. 

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 02:42 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Jim,

There was never a tapered pin through the neck that way.  I'll show an original bolt as I put mine back together.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:03 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Here is the original square headed bolt;

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:04 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Bill Hoehn wrote: I have never seen a pizza bladed '98 and doubt if they exist.  Don't know when production started with the undated "Patented and Patent applied for" models but assume they went ahead with the improved Parker blade with the start of '98 production.  

Bill, that is exactly how I have looked at the situation from when I got my 1898 white switch model.  Now, with Russ's added info, it's hard to say my fan is an 1898 model but you never know.   Let's just say that Emerson had a "recall" of the '98 models to install the far superior Parker blade.   That would be an unusual occurrence wouldn't it.   As much as I want to believe what Russ showed and explained I am still in a quandary about "where are the 1898 tripod fans"?   Was Emerson delayed in getting them to market for some unexplained reason?  Emerson was still making or, at least, offering the 1897 tripod models so they did have fans to sell for 1898.   I will, provisionally until I get contrary information, consider my "1898" tripod to now be an 1899 model.  If you have your doubts that the 1898 with piizza blades was ever made I will join you in wondering.  Thanks for the photo of your tripod base.   I will have to check mine.  One more thing, what is the serial number of your 1898 model?   My white switch tripod is 33382 with the middle digit not readable.

Low number tripods are EI-1 23162 (maybe 28162) that was on eBay with no blade or cage but with a brass pulley on front.  Photo of switch below and note the thumb screws and how it differs from my white switch, photo in next post.  Also a very original tripod also with parker blades and I don't have a photo of the switch.  It's an EI-1 also and serial no. 25061.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:06 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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I find it interesting that this fan was painted entirely with silver and no gold.  The blade is the single stamped Patented with no date as shown before.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:06 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Switch on my NO. 33382 tripod which I have always thought to be an 1898 but it has Patent Appl'd For blades.   I don't know if the later thumbscrews could be threaded into the two holes on the sides in the rear of my switch.  

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Last edited on Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:11 am by Steve Stephens

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:07 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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My same tripod with the switch wired.  It is very hard to thread the wire though the holes and a very thin outer jacket wire has to be used.  This is from an old Christmas tree light string.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:08 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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And the '98-'99 switch.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:12 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Steve,

With that serial number yours is probably a '98, but check the base to be sure.

Also remember porcelain switches break easily and are usually replaced with the later versions.

Last edited on Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:19 am by Bill Hoehn

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:16 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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" THE MISSING LINK"    Have we found it yet?  Still looking I think.
Bill, your fan above has a four wing blade and, best I can see, has the rounded dome at the front of the hub instead of what I think is the earlier "tit" shown here on an EI-1 serial no. 25061.  I don't know what year this fan is and don't have a photo of the switch but it's a black one I believe.  This may be the most original tripod I have seen with original steel cage and it still has the bayonet mount cap for the oil cup in back.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:23 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: I have never seen a pizza bladed '98 and doubt if they exist.  Don't know when production started with the undated "Patented and Patent applied for" models but assume they went ahead with the improved Parker blade with the start of '98 production.  

Bill, you know as well as I know you have NO evidence to support anything in your statement above. The 98 Emerson catalogue supports a pizza wing blade along with images in at least four 98 electrical trade journals.

I have made it clear the 98 back switch Emerson tripod with pizza wing blade is well supported through time period documentation. I have made it clear that the Parker blade patent was not even filed until September of 98 after the fan motor manufacture season of 98. I have offered a 98 Western Electrician with NO mention of the Parker blade, yet the 99 Western Electrician boasts the use of the blade.

The undated Parker blades make complete sense as patent was filed in Sept. of 98 which would protect Emerson's interest in the blade. The reason the patent date could not be stamped into the blade is the patent was issued in SEPT. of 99 AFTER Emerson fan manufacture was complete for the 99 fan motor season.

The 98 back switch tripod with pizza slice wings would of had a one season run which would put them in limited numbers. Never say never says the Dunaway, but the sad part is there is a high probability none of you obviously have a 98 tripod in your collection...yet. Think about it.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:25 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Otto't tripod serial no. 34256 is another very original fan with original steel cage.  His switch has the thumb screws and note that the hole between those screws has been plugged or filled with a reddish material.  Later that hole was not molded into the switches as I will show.

Well, Otto's photos are corrupted so here is the switch without a center hole between the two thumb screws.  Ser. No. 37599

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:32 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Russ Huber wrote: The 98 back switch tripod with pizza slice wings would of had a one season run which would put them in limited numbers.
I don't disagree with your post Russ but all Emerson fans were made in 'limited" quantities.  1898 would seem to be made in no less or not much less than any preceding year Emerson fans yet we do see examples of all other years I think.   One would think they could believe the 1901 GE catalog illustrations yet the 1901 catalog uses 1900 model illustrations.  Factory literature....wrong information.   Could the 1898 tripod information be sent to publications before Emerson decided to install the Parker blades on 98 models?  The patent date of late 1898; I can't begin to explain that one.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:48 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Steve,

Reviewed all tripod catalogs again looking for blade details.  You've probably already noticed the 2, 3 and 4 rivet patterns on the '98 pizzas.  "Artistic license" I guess.

The blade with the "tit" shows up nowhere, in any year. Of course the solid shafts often protrude and that blade maybe off of an early ventilating fan.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:56 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Get used to it, Steve. Until either you, or Bill, or the man on the moon hold any valid documented proof there was a Parker blade on a 98 Emerson desk fan, you will persist to post misleading information with your speculation until your speculation becomes nearly virtuous.

Facts, so far the 98 Emerson catalogue and at least 4 electrical trade journals have shown a 5 pizza wing blade on a back switch Emerson tripod. Amen.

Last edited on Wed Jul 15th, 2015 03:59 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 04:07 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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Russ,

When you show us an example of the '98 with (original) pizza blades I'll agree with you!

Do you think they will have 2,3 or 4 rivets?

There are numerous examples of '98's with early Parker blades! 

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 04:17 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Russ, I don't think Bill's reasoning it too far off.  If there were even one original pizza blade 98 tripod out there it would be a lot easier to accept your facts.   I am no longer insisting that my tripod is a '98 model but where are the '98 tripod fans?  They are plastered all over the Emerson catalog and the trade journals and even early in the year so there must be some around.  There is no problem finding existing Emersons from 1893 to 1901 except for the 1898 model.

Wait, hold the presses, I just discovered the elusive 1898 tripod with pizza blades.  Ron Jeter had this blade and cage made for a tripod he had which, if I am not mistaken, had a Parker blade on it before he "pizza-ed" it.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 04:25 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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I hope Ron put that on a '98 motor and base!

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 04:49 am
   
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David Foster
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If a catalog from 1901 from a much larger manufacturer (GE) have wrong pocture information, why can't an older catalog from a smaller manufacturer have what is ultimately an incorrect press photo? Plus trade manuals from the time that are absolutely infallible? I mean, we are dealing with the dawn of electrical appliances and electricity itself. 

It's just a question. I guess the unicorn I'm looking for are more period photos of the fans versus printed drawings. Ultimately, Russ is probably correct. But books are not absolute either. My opinion only. 

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 05:30 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Steve Stephens wrote: Russ, I don't think Bill's reasoning it too far off.  If there were even one original pizza blade 98 tripod out there it would be a lot easier to accept your facts.   I am no longer insisting that my tripod is a '98 model but where are the '98 tripod fans?  They are plastered all over the Emerson catalog and the trade journals and even early in the year so there must be some around.  There is no problem finding existing Emersons from 1893 to 1901 except for the 1898 model.

Wait, hold the presses, I just discovered the elusive 1898 tripod with pizza blades.  Ron Jeter had this blade and cage made for a tripod he had which, if I am not mistaken, had a Parker blade on it before he "pizza-ed" it.


Scan the 98 google books for the improved Parker blade being mentioned in any shape or form. Then scan the 99 google books. Then go back using your best imagination using the google book search engine with the use of the words Emerson Parker blade in 98 again.

I can't find a peep in the 98 books of a new blade being used on the Emerson desk fans. Yet, in the 99 books the mention of the new Emerson parker blade in use is abundant. Speculate all you want, but make sure you make it clear in your post you have no documented proof to back up your claims. I'll so some more digging for sure. 

Last edited on Wed Jul 15th, 2015 05:45 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 05:41 am
   
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Steve Cunningham
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David, it's been my experience that factory catalog drawings are the most accurate. But magazine publishers might use the same drawings for several years.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 06:14 am
   
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David Foster
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Thanks for the info, Steve. And thanks to Russ, Dr. Bill, and Steve S. for  all the info in such a fascinating and impassioned thread. It is extremely enjoyable. 

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 Posted: Wed Jul 15th, 2015 06:53 am
   
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Ron Jeter
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Bill Hoehn wrote: I hope Ron put that on a '98 motor and base!

Can't remember Bill but if I had to guess I would say NO.  Sorry guys, these are just fans and I could care less as to what year it was manufactured -- I did do a test on these blades -- at the time I had three Tripods - one had 5-blade with Parker Blades and the other had the 5-blade Pizza style blades  - both fan ran close rpms - the voltage was the same - spin down time was within 5 seconds - I even swapped the blades from one fan to the other - the Pizza style Blades blew away the Parker (A lot of time on my hands) After this test, I concluded (My opinion)  that the Parker was nothing but a sales gimmick. Has anyone else done this type of test?

Stephens - Wail till you see the blades I put on the top switch Meston - you gonna like it!!!!

Last edited on Wed Jul 15th, 2015 07:33 am by Ron Jeter

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