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Missing Link Found in Saint Louis  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Tue Aug 25th, 2015 11:57 pm
   
1441st Post
Bill Hoehn
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We fan collectors prefer fans to literature and yes, even to patents and pictures.

I will not waste my time with people who have closed minds and refuse to believe what they see and almost everyone else knows.  Many of us have the hanging switch Mestons clearly identified as such, have shown them at conventions and pictured them repeatedly on this and other threads.  Mine are available for any members to see.

We refuse to believe that Emerson did not know what they were making and used old parts (cast bronze end bells---marked MESTON) for years which were wrong for their fans. 

 WHO'S IN DENIAL???

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 12:05 am
   
1442nd Post
Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: WHO'S IN DENIAL???

D amn good question, Bill. I am still waiting to see the enduring Meston name on the tripods shown in the catalogues of 98-01. I hope you can find the Meston name living on in those catalogues as I can't find the Meston name living on in the trade books of those dates. The start of the brushless INDUCTION tripod desk fans was 95, and they endured on through 01.  

Last edited on Wed Aug 26th, 2015 12:09 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 12:23 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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We're still collecting FANS---not catalogs!

It's clearly been shown in the literature, which is obviously more important to you than the fans.  You, with your expertise, I'm sure could bring it back if you tried.

When the proof was shown before I noticed a lack of correspondence from two people for quite a while.  That may give you a clue as to where to start.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 01:50 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: I'll try again.

I'm sure not meant to be a teacher. For detailed second hand information we can't all be Russ Huber, and he has given us much valuable information.   Mine comes exclusively from Emerson, motors, fans and literature.

From 1891 to 1895 every motor and fan produced was named Meston.  As Russ described with the death of Meston and the arrival of other designers and engineers the Meston name was phased out and ended up Emerson.

In 1896 the terminology was "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor on their hanging switch Meston pictured repeatedly.

In 1897 they used both "Emerson Electric" induction and "Emerson Induction" to differentiate the Mestons from the Emersons.

In 1898 this continued and I will post views later. 

The only one I plan for tonight is the 1895 catalog view of their three Mestons, the IVS, ceiling and hanging switch---all Mestons. 

The 1898 catalog (No. 2110) drops the "Emerson Electric" designation and from then on uses Emerson induction only, beginning with the hollow shaft motor

That's a start and here is the page from the 1895 Emerson catalog.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 02:01 am
   
1445th Post
Russ Huber
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Russ Huber wrote: Bill Hoehn wrote: In 1896 the terminology was "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor on their hanging switch Meston pictured repeatedly.


Bill, this is to the best of my knowledge a 96 Emerson catalogue image. I fail to see this back lever Emerson desk fan referred to as a "Meston". 

Can you please show us one Emerson catalogue page that clearly shows an Emerson INDUCTION desk fan dating 95-01 as a "Meston".  

Attached Image (viewed 1344 times):

1896 Emerson catalog p_7.jpg

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 03:13 am
   
1446th Post
Bill Hoehn
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Sure Russ, I thought you could find it from before.

The only place Emerson Electric marked their Meston fans Meston, was on the front covers, not the nameplate or anywhere else.

This page (9) from their 1897 catalog clearly shows the name Meston on this fan.  There are others also, with the Our "Emerson Electric"  Induction heading and no evidence of the IVS switch because it has a hanging switch as proven at the bottom "Consumption of Current and Speeds."  Three, not infinitely variable!

I am really tired of proving this so many times, and I wish the false information would cease.

The computer will not accept this picture---I'll try separately. Sorry--no luck--with 2 cameras and 2 separate memory sticks.  They're perfect in the cameras but the computer will not accept.  Maybe I can find an old post with it.

Posts 51, 52 and 53 of this thread are definitive, of the fan, the same as the literature that won't print.

Last edited on Wed Aug 26th, 2015 03:58 am by Bill Hoehn

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 04:07 am
   
1447th Post
Russ Huber
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Bill Hoehn wrote: I am really tired of proving this so many times, and I wish the false information would cease.

Easy Bill, this not a conspiracy to get you. :D Frankly, I tire of it as well.

Point.........Meston cast into an end bell does not conclude the fan is a Meston. Sounds rather oxymoron, I agree. Emerson was marketing the brushed MESTON for years prior to introduction of the 95 INDUCTION BACK LEVER DESK FAN, increasing its sales and reputation on the "MESTON" BRUSHED DESK FAN. Take now into consideration that Emerson in the early stages of marketing electrical appliances is now faced with introducing a NEW INDUCTION MOTOR DESK FAN in 95 with an unfamiliar BACK LEVER START AND SPEED ADJUSTMENT. If I was Emerson I would put the FAMILAR MESTON name on the NEW INDUCTION DESK FAN MOTOR to keep past customers feeling confident toward purchasing an unfamiliar EMERSON INDUCTION DESK FAN MOTOR.

All the literature in the Electrical trade books and even your catalogue descriptions of the time period of the INDUCTION DESK FAN MOTOR introduction forward DO NOT SUPPORT THE INDUCTION DESK FAN MOTOR AS A MESTON. Unless of course you have catalogue material with a Emerson INDUCTION DESK FAN with worded description that it is a MESTON FAN MOTOR.

Thanks for going to the library. I would place a huge bet Fred Briner designed the Emerson BACK LEVER INDUCTION DESK FAN. If so, how could you call it a Meston other than the tripod housing and tripod designed by Alex Meston. Meston's fan motor design represents only a shell. Fred Briner was in at Emerson in 94 and the EMERSON INDUCTION DESK FAN was on the market fan motor season of 95.

Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ,

Spent a little time yesterday at the library and looked up the people listed in your photo.

In '94 Fred Briner started as a draftsman at Emerson. By '96 he was an asst. supt. and by '97 a supt. at Emerson.


    

 

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 04:41 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Bill, here are your 97 catalogue images with Meston sported on the end bell on the INDUCTION DESK FAN. But.........not a peep in any of the descriptions both in electrical trade books or 97 Emerson catalogue material to support the INDUCTION DESK FAN AS A MESTON FAN MOTOR.   

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 04:42 am
   
1449th Post
Russ Huber
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.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 04:46 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Now here is the worded end of a 97 advertisement differentiating the two fan motors ............Meston.......Induction.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 04:49 am
   
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Tom Dreesen
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Sure Russ, I thought you could find it from before.

The only place Emerson Electric marked their Meston fans Meston, was on the front covers, not the nameplate or anywhere else.

This page (9) from their 1897 catalog clearly shows the name Meston on this fan.  There are others also, with the Our "Emerson Electric"  Induction heading and no evidence of the IVS switch because it has a hanging switch as proven at the bottom "Consumption of Current and Speeds."  Three, not infinitely variable!

I am really tired of proving this so many times, and I wish the false information would cease.

The computer will not accept this picture---I'll try separately. Sorry--no luck--with 2 cameras and 2 separate memory sticks.  They're perfect in the cameras but the computer will not accept.  Maybe I can find an old post with it.

Posts 51, 52 and 53 of this thread are definitive, of the fan, the same as the literature that won't print.

Do we not have a bit of a tempest in a teapot? There is no Meston Electric Co just like there is no Tesla Electric Co (well, anyway ...).  Any Meston was produced by Emerson just as any Tesla was made by GE.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 04:52 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Here is your point, Bill. I understand how you feel, but why the trade books and Emerson catalogues do not support the INDUCTION DESK FAN as a MESTON in the description makes for conflict.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 04:53 am
   
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Russ Huber
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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 05:20 am
   
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Gary Hagan
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Hey there Romeo... Perhaps this is a debate involving a socially constructed perception of reality..  Shakespeare once said:
’Tis but thy name that is mine enemy:What’s Meston? It is not hand nor foot,Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part.What’s in a name? That which we call a rose,By any other name would smell as sweet."
If Bill says it's a Meston I believe him. He has probably forgotten more about Emerson fans than the rest of us will ever fathom. 
Bill I would add never wrestle with a pig because ultimately you'll get muddy and the pig enjoys it!
:)

Last edited on Wed Aug 26th, 2015 05:24 am by Gary Hagan

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 05:45 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Gary Hagan wrote: Hey there Romeo... Perhaps this is a debate involving a socially constructed perception of reality..  Shakespeare once said:
’Tis but thy name that is mine enemy:What’s Meston? It is not hand nor foot,Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part.What’s in a name? That which we call a rose,By any other name would smell as sweet."
If Bill says it's a Biwrestle with a pig because ultimately you'll get muddy and the pig enjoys it!
:)

Bill and I are debating Emerson History with conflict presenting documented information and images.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 06:08 am
   
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George Durbin
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HI All!!
Looks like you could use a break! Interesting as always but I don't own a Meston or the  or an emmy tri-pod...
My question is... was the junior or the 450 considered the premium fan of the two?... the 450 seemed to be a more complicated design as it was 3-speed...
Geo...

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 07:02 am
   
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David Foster
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George-

I would consider the Northwind 450 to be the more premium due to the multiple speeds and the bonus of working on AC or DC current. My opinion only. 

I do not have a hanging switch Tripod, but do have two with the porcelain switch. Aside from the actual switch itself, were there other mechanical or electrical differences between the first FI-1s and the last FI-1s?

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 07:44 am
   
1458th Post
Russ Huber
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David Foster wrote: I would consider the Northwind 450 to be the more premium due to the multiple speeds and the bonus of working on AC or DC current. My opinion only.

Psssssssst........don't forget it operates on 25-60 cycle AC on a fairly wide range of voltage of 100-120 VAC.

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Northwind.jpg

Last edited on Wed Aug 26th, 2015 07:50 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 07:48 am
   
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Russ Huber
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The INFO section here has the Emerson Junior introduced for late 1921. That is not correct. 1922 is.

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Junior.jpg

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 09:14 am
   
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David Foster
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Russ-
Thank you. I didn't know about the multiple operating frequencies. Or, possibly, I did read that info back when I had no idea what that meant. Love the learning! Now i need to work on my knowledge retention. 

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 09:36 am
   
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Russ Huber
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David Foster wrote: Russ-
 I didn't know about the multiple operating frequencies. 

The mid teens had a flood of residential size universal fan motors capable of equivalent frequency and AC/DC operation.

Last edited on Wed Aug 26th, 2015 09:37 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 09:57 am
   
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Jim Kovar
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Russ Huber wrote: David Foster wrote: ...Northwind 450...   ...working on AC or DC...
...it operates on 25-60 cycle...

"...D.C. or 25 to 60 cycles."

Excluding DC, I know of no power
company that  commercially produced
electricity with a frequency of less than
25 cycles.   There might have been?

Would such an "AC or DC" series motor
give a rat's fanny if it was fed less than
25 Hz?


Heck, it'll run on DC!     That's zero Hz!  :shock:

Would frequencies between DC and 25 Hz
fry those motors?    I don't think so.

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Last edited on Wed Aug 26th, 2015 09:59 am by Jim Kovar

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 09:06 pm
   
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Russ Huber
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It is stated in 01 that all motors shown in the Emerson 01 catalogue are licensed under the owners of the Tesla induction patents.

 

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 09:09 pm
   
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Russ Huber
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Emerson Electric Manufacturing Company was founded in St. Louis in 1890 to produce the new AC induction motors that would contribute to the development of the industrial revolution in the United States. With the introduction of the "Meston Fan," which was based on the alternating motor invented by company co-founder Alexander Meston, Emerson solved the challenge of cooling workers in offices and factories in hot and humid climates with an immediate gain in productivity giving an instant "payback." From 1895 Emerson focused on the manufacture of high-quality ceiling and desk-top fans as a domestic market also opened up.

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Last edited on Wed Aug 26th, 2015 09:12 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2015 09:20 pm
   
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Russ Huber
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It appears 1895 the INDUCTION fan motor has become the cats meow at Emerson. The 96 Western Electrician differentiates the Emerson MESTON brushed desk fan motor from the new 95 introduction of the INDUCTION desk fan motor in advertisement.

 

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 Posted: Thu Aug 27th, 2015 01:29 am
   
1466th Post
David Hoatson
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Look at the small Emerson fans available in 1918 around when the 450A was introduced - It was basically the 450A (plain base, steel blades & spot-welded steel cage), the DC 19045 (brass blade & brass cage) and the 19645 (brass blade & brass cage).

 

Out of these three, the Northwind was definitely a lower grade, intended for a more cost-conscious customer.  Still good quality that has proven to hold up well over the years, though.

 

Things get more complicated after the 29x45 series transitioned into the Emerson JR and lowered features to save cost.  At a certain point, maybe the JR got cheaper than the 450.

 

Looking at catalog prices would add some info to this discussion.

 

(I apologize if my "facts" or dates are wrong)

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 Posted: Thu Aug 27th, 2015 01:59 am
   
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George Durbin
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David Hoatson wrote: Look at the small Emerson fans available in 1918 around when the 450A was introduced - It was basically the 450A (plain base, steel blades & spot-welded steel cage), the DC 19045 (brass blade & brass cage) and the 19645 (brass blade & brass cage).

 

Out of these three, the Northwind was definitely a lower grade, intended for a more cost-conscious customer.  Still good quality that has proven to hold up well over the years, though.

 

Things get more complicated after the 29x45 series transitioned into the Emerson JR and lowered features to save cost.  At a certain point, maybe the JR got cheaper than the 450.

 

Looking at catalog prices would add some info to this discussion.

 

(I apologize if my "facts" or dates are wrong)


Hi David!
Pretty good overview! Heheh... I am sure if any corrections need to be made it will happen here!
Geo...

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 Posted: Thu Aug 27th, 2015 02:15 am
   
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Russ Huber
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David Hoatson wrote: (I apologize if my "facts" or dates are wrong)

You had better get it right or Bill and I will be lurking in the shadows ready to pop out and make your butt look like chewed bubble gum....fact Jack. :X

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 Posted: Thu Aug 27th, 2015 08:22 am
   
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Russ Huber
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Russ Huber wrote: The Electrical Workers' Journal - Volume 52




1953 - ‎Snippet view - ‎Briner Electrical Company is woven around Charles J. Briner and Fred E. Briner, two pioneers of the electrical industry in St. Louis. Although they started with individual ventures, they merged their talents to become one of the leading motor repair shops in the United States. Fred E. Briner, seven years younger than his Brother, came to St. Louis in 1889, and a year later was associated with Alex Meston.

Charles Briner is claimed entering the electrical trade in 1881-82. His Brother Fred Briner is claimed entering the electrical trade around 1889.

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Last edited on Thu Aug 27th, 2015 09:31 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 12:55 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Russ, I really appreciate you trying to set the record straight in regards to the what is(top switch model) and what isn't (back hanging switch), an Emerson "Meston" fan motor.   Many pages and probably a year earlier I had hashed this out in this thread with the same thinking as you.  

Why would Emerson cast MESTON in the front cover of the hanging switch induction motor if it were not a Meston motor?   I think there is a simple explanation and that is that the front cover for the Meston and for the Induction motor (bronze cased) fan motors was the same, identical casting for both.  The only difference was the an additional matching operation was done on the Meston fan motor cover, i.e. a slot was machined for the top switch to go through the cover.  

In producing the new Emerson Induction motor in 1895 Emerson probably decided to use the same casting for the front cover as they already had the pattern for that casting.  They could have modified the pattern to read INDUCTION MOTOR but, since they were still making the Meston motor, they probably did not want to modify the pattern. 

Having the name MESTON on the front of their new Induction Motor fans would add a well respected name or reference to their new fan motor.   I have no doubt after reading and studying various Emerson catalogs that the Meston was the top switch, infinitely variable speed motor with no brushes or commutator, and the Induction Motor with bronze case and, later, iron case with MESTON cast in the front cover, were not Mestons but were "Induction Motors" with definite speeds and no brushes or commutator.

Here are Russ's photos of the front motor plated used on the Meston and the bronze cased Induction fan motors.  IDENTICAL castings used on two DIFFERENT motors and used by choice of Emerson so as to not have to make a new pattern for the new induction motor (the one with the hanging switch on the back of the motor).
http://www.afcaforum.com/view_post.php?post_id=342998
http://www.afcaforum.com/view_post.php?post_id=342999

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 01:50 am
   
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Tom Dreesen
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"IDENTICAL castings used on two DIFFERENT motors and used by choice of Emerson so as to not have to make a new pattern for the new induction motor (the one with the hanging switch on the back of the motor)."
This is a rationalization and without merit.  New castings were made throughout the model run.  

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 04:18 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Tom Dreesen wrote:  New castings were made throughout the model run.  But not necessarily new PATTERNS.

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 04:22 am
   
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Tom Dreesen
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Steve Stephens wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:  New castings were made throughout the model run.  But not necessarily new PATTERNS.

And why do you think that new patterns were a cost to be concerned with?

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 06:32 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Tom Dreesen wrote:
And why do you think that new patterns were a cost to be concerned with?
..  .   .

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 08:12 am
   
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Bill Hoehn
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A simple question.

Is there a third person in the world that believes Emerson Electric Manufacturing Company's marked Meston fans are not Mestons?

If not, I think the rest of us are wasting our time!

If so, please let us know who you are!

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 08:48 am
   
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Russ Huber
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If you read the 04 information on Charles Meston below, accomplisments made by the Meston brothers are contained within. The 1895 Emerson alternating current ceiling fan credited to the Mestons has a commutator with a single metallic brush. It is not until 97 Charles Meston is credited with his first INDUCTION ceiling fan motor.

Bill Hoehn wrote: In '94 Fred Briner started as a draftsman at Emerson. By '96 he was an asst. supt. and by '97 a supt. at Emerson.


Notice there is NO credit given to the Meston brothers for the brushless induction desk fan introduced to the market by Emerson in 95.

 

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 09:03 am
   
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Russ Huber
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In 97 Frederick Briner left Emerson to join his brother Charles at his electrical business established in St. Louis in 95. Ironic huh? Charles Meston patents his first INDUCTION fan motor at the tail end of Fred Briner's quality time at Emerson.

Briner left Emerson with a patent connected to the Emerson INDUCTION desk fan. 

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Last edited on Fri Aug 28th, 2015 09:04 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 09:05 am
   
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Russ Huber
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"Since 1897 has had full supervision and responsibility for all designs and manufacturing,"

Pssssssssst........in 1897 Briner left Emerson. Makes you wonder just how much Frederick Briner put into the Emerson motor business?

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Last edited on Fri Aug 28th, 2015 09:28 am by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 09:26 am
   
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Steve Stephens
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Bill Hoehn wrote:

Is there a third person in the world that believes Emerson Electric Manufacturing Company's marked Meston fans are not Mestons?



Maybe not too many others now, sadly, as they, who know the real facts, are in the minority.  But, back in the day, the writers of the Emerson catalogs did know the facts and did state that the Meston was the brush and commutator motor, and the other motor with the back switch was the Induction Motor.  Either/or, one can't be both.  
The Meston is proven, from catalog statements, to be a brush and commutator motor.  And the Induction Motor had no brushes or commutator as stated in the Emerson catalogs so it can't be a Meston.  Can't be both now can it?  

At the start of this thread I was of the belief that any bronze cased Emerson fan motor was a Meston, including the back switch models.  But careful and thorough reading of the catalogs showed me that was not the case.

Last edited on Fri Aug 28th, 2015 09:31 am by Steve Stephens

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 Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2015 09:30 am
   
1480th Post
Russ Huber
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 Don't forget Edwin Pillsbury(Century Electric Co.) patented a motor while employed at Emerson.

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