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Mini Lollipop Project  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2021 06:46 am
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Louis Luu
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Found it...Amazon carries both types of bearing. I think ultimately a phenolic brush will need to be fabricated. I do plan on cutting a square window in the base of the column...just like the lollipop where brush is mounted. Now to convince someone to make a customize badge to cover the window with a flag emblem...I like the R&M flag emblem. I'm thinking of making one and casting it for the window. This will indeed be almost the same as the 12 inch Lollipop/Vane all casted in Bronze. The commuter brush should arrive in about a month...then I order the bearings from Amazon. This will give me time to plug some holes...prime...sand...and YES...work on the Kidney gearbox and get it done.

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 Posted: Thu Mar 18th, 2021 09:11 am
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Louis Luu
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Mini lollipop hub...modeled after the 12 inch.




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 Posted: Mon Apr 26th, 2021 05:03 am
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Louis Luu
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Remove midsection to make room for the ring commutator and rotor shaft.  The midsection will be enlarge to align with the top out diameter of the motor.





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 Posted: Thu Jul 1st, 2021 03:06 am
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Louis Luu
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Project has not been abandoned...just got sidetrack with casting badges and geissler rotators parts...my main hobby. I did sourced some more parts to minimize the fabrication for the stem section. I got the commutators and currently sourcing the bearing for the column.

I will be making the flag emblem shortly. It will be done in lost wax to pick up the minute details of the rope section area.

Last edited on Thu Jul 1st, 2021 04:07 am by Louis Luu

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 Posted: Sun Jul 4th, 2021 04:16 am
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Louis Luu
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I got the right size ring commutator.  They are really nice quality from Germany.  I will be ordering the bearing parts from McMaster.  Once that comes in, I will finish the stem section and begin making the mold.  The 12" Lollipop struts is ready for molding.  I will make extra and use some of them for designing the struts for the 8" mini-Lollipop.  I've decided the motor also needs a fist knuckle added onto the motor to carry the fan around.  I will be making that as well.



Last edited on Sun Jul 4th, 2021 04:29 am by Louis Luu

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 Posted: Mon Jul 5th, 2021 04:28 am
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Louis Luu
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I ordered some bearings from Amazon and McMaster and will test them out.  If they don't work, I would need to cast the thee parts for the bearing.  Casting them would minimize machining from scratch.  The bearing parts would need to be cast in stainless steel.



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 Posted: Wed Jul 7th, 2021 01:49 am
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Louis Luu
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I got around to opening up a vane oscillator.  Both the R&M lollipop and vane oscillator used "Angular Contact" bearings.  One on top and one on bottom facing inwards.  The bearings I ordered should work.

Last edited on Wed Jul 7th, 2021 05:45 am by Louis Luu

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 Posted: Wed Jul 7th, 2021 07:28 am
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Louis Luu
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All the parts were sourced.  The angular contact bearing was sourced from Amazon and the rest of the hardware was sourced from Ace Hardware.  The only piece that needs to be cast is the support column...mid section.  No machining needed!  And it fits within the column.

The screw rod is hollow allowing the wire to run from top of motor to the commutator on end.  Very quiet.









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 Posted: Wed Jul 7th, 2021 07:29 am
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Louis Luu
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I'll be heading down to Ace tomorrow to snatch boxes and boxes of hardware and ordering more bearings to stash.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 7th, 2021 07:35 am
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Louis Luu
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The Angular Bearing in that size with the correct inner and outer diameter was a pain to find....searched all over.  Even McMaster did not have them.  Took me two days taking apart the gear assembly off the lollipop and vane and running to Ace...spent literally hours searching for the correct parts and size.  Then came home and bought what I thought was the correct gears.  It finally arrived today and works beautifully.  It fits and is correct.  No machining!

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 Posted: Wed Jul 7th, 2021 08:21 am
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George Durbin
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Wow!

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 Posted: Wed Jul 7th, 2021 08:58 am
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Louis Luu
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Thank you William.  You were right.  After studying the original lollipop and vane oscillator.  The weight was distributed by having angular contact bearing to distribute the weight.  Both the bottom and the top had angular bearing facing towards each other.  Using radial and thrust bearing would have work...but cumbersome.  Angular bearing solves this problem by distributing the force in both the x and y axis of rotation....resulting in an "angular" force.

William Dunlap wrote: Louis,
The bearings are ball bearings which are meant to be used with a radial load. In the configuration you intend, the bearings will be in both radial and axial loads. Not uncommon...most bearings take loads from more than one direction, but it can add friction and slow things down.
The end of the shaft can be supported by a radial bearing, and the upper side can be supported by the ball and race type you're using. So the weight of the motor assembly is supported by the thrust bearing, relieving the axial load from the ball and race.
In recent projects requiring very low friction, I experimented with various combinations of bearings until I found the right set up. 
Instead of a thrust bearing for the bottom, you could also use just a single ball bearing perfectly centered to take the weight off the upper bearing.
All this might be unnecessary ....just something to think about if you find you can't get it to work the way you want.
I know I struggled with the table vane oscillator until I found the right bearing to use. Still the thing won't work right unless it is perfectly level and the fan is perfectly balanced on the table.
Also, if you have this thing rotating 360 degrees, being off balance may cause it to tip over if it goes too fast. I think it was Kim Frank that made one and he ended up attaching a counter weight to the back so it could rotate properly.
All good fun at the end of the day. 
Cheers,
Bill


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 Posted: Wed Jul 7th, 2021 09:03 am
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Louis Luu
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Center of gravity will be moved towards the bottom by making the bottom portion more heavy than the top and feets will be added to the base to widen. All this will be used to prevent tipping over.

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 Posted: Mon Jul 19th, 2021 10:23 am
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Louis Luu
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Got done designing the middle stem section which includes the commutator holder, bearing assembly, brush contact.  Still need to design the brush holder...need to drop by ACE and see what readily available brush holders there are and go from there.  The only thing left is the Flag emblem on the cage, tag cover for the middle section and struts.



The left is the commutator holder...slips right into the commutator and allows wires to go through to hook up motor to commutator.




The middle is the column to hold the bearing assembly.




The right is the bearing assembly for the "angular contact bearing" one on top and one on bottom which I have already sourced.



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 Posted: Tue Jul 20th, 2021 04:19 am
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Louis Luu
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I'll be adding the feet next to the base...almost there.  Got the column bearing, commutator holder, brush holder.




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 Posted: Tue Jul 20th, 2021 06:57 am
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Louis Luu
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Feet added to base.  Only thing left is the struts.



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 Posted: Tue Jul 20th, 2021 07:16 am
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William Dunlap
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:clap: :up:

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 Posted: Tue Jul 20th, 2021 07:20 am
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Louis Luu
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I finally solved the brush contact with the commutator. The original lollipop and vane used carbon brush contact and were cumbersome. I looked around the house and notice my 360 oscillating Martinot just had brass contact just like the old fashion Edison and toy motors....much easier to design. Only thing left is the struts...I will start taking a whole bunch of picture and do some more CAD. CAD makes designing easy but not perfect. I can get it printed and do minor fixes before making the mold.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 20th, 2021 07:27 am
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Louis Luu
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William, I had a question. Do you think a variable switch would work on this thing?

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 Posted: Tue Jul 20th, 2021 11:56 am
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William Dunlap
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This is a brushed motor, right? If you're talking about the common pulse width modulator that is sometimes used to control speeds on fans, then yes they can work. My understanding is that these come with simple three speed switches with resistance wire elements which are dead simple and easy to work on.
Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Tue Jul 20th, 2021 12:27 pm
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Louis Luu
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Thanks William...just making sure there are options.

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 Posted: Wed Jul 21st, 2021 11:26 pm
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Louis Luu
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Redid the base...this is more pleasing and allows mounting of the stoppers on the top flat part of the base.



I will also be doing the motor housing in CAD....saves me a whole lot of time bondo, sanding, spraying, measuring out in the backyard due to casting imperfections.


The struts will be easy to do...I figured out how to model curvatures in CAD and making adjustments base on pictures.  This will save me a whole bunch of time to make sure the struts sits properly, looks aesthetically pleasing and most importantly...the pendulum hits the stoppers on the base. 

The goal was to have this thing done within one year...well...at least the modeling part will.  After that, I will get it printed and make the mold.  I will be making a limited number of these, please post here if interested.  As for price...I will make it fair since I have no idea what the actual cost will be to cast these.  I will be making the molds myself...this will save a lot of money. 

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 Posted: Wed Jul 21st, 2021 11:37 pm
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Louis Luu
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The stem section will not be straight...I will put curves into it to match with the motor housing.

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 Posted: Sat Jul 24th, 2021 11:07 pm
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Louis Luu
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I know it is has taken me a couple tries...I finally have a version for the base I like.  It has the flat area to mount the stoppers for both the lollipop and vane and it has feet to prevent tipping over.  Most importantly, I have included mounting for the base plate and switch along with rubber feets.  The stem will be redone as I did not like it looking flat...it needs to have curves (not just a straight tube) along with fitting the bearings.  The overall goal is to have a nice short stumpy small cute mini-lollipop.  The struts will be designed base on the original to give it that authentic pleasing shape.  In the end, it will be worth it to make sure the design is right even if it takes a couple adjustments.





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 Posted: Mon Jul 26th, 2021 01:52 am
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Louis Luu
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Just got the entire base with the stem done.  Also found out limitations of printing.  The entire stem/base model can't be printed in one single shot.  No problem, I will be cutting this in two pieces and glue them back together once I get them printed.  The entire bottom portion is done.  Has place for the commutator and brush holder and bearing holder within the stem.  Also, I made the stem slightly longer...to account for shrinkage during casting.  This can also be cut down once the bearing goes in there as a safety measure...best to make it slightly longer.  Easer to remove then to add.




This is what it should look like.










This is what I'm getting printed...two separate parts.  Will glue them back together for priming and mold making.  Then off for casting.








I've also figured out how to model the struts.  Model will be using X/Y coordinate subtraction from X/Z or Y/Z coordinate to give me three point X,Y,Z coordinate for modeling.  That will be easy to do.  After that...I need to do proportional adjustments.  I will calculate the percent of where the struts are on the 12" model to the cage and base stoppers.  Than I will measure where the struts for the original 8" R&M open commutator is on the cage and where the base is.  Doing the cage measurement will give me the proportional adjustment for the X/Y coordinate and doing the measurement from the base edge will give me the X/Z or Y/Z plane proportional adjustment.

Last edited on Mon Jul 26th, 2021 01:53 am by Louis Luu

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 Posted: Mon Jul 26th, 2021 01:55 am
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Louis Luu
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Also, the stem is tapered and not straight.

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 Posted: Thu Jul 29th, 2021 01:35 am
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Louis Luu
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Finished rounding the inside housing and outside.  Also got the column tapered off.  Done.



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 Posted: Thu Jul 29th, 2021 01:41 am
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Louis Luu
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Just need the motor housing and the struts. Also, virtualizing the struts in CAD allows easy adjustments to make sure everything sits proper.

The plan is to have 7.7 mm from the column remove from the base/column after casting. I want to leave that 7.7 mm extra length in the column section only to account for shrinkage during casting and bearing adjustment.

The plan for adjusting the strut is plan as follows. After I draw the housing for the motor housing, I will draw out the diameter for the back ring...lock the motor housing and cage in place and adjust the struts in terms of width, height, depth. I was going to do this by modeling in clay...too much work. This is much easier and less messy.

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 Posted: Thu Jul 29th, 2021 01:43 am
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Louis Luu
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Also, turns out I made a stupid mistake. The bottom base and stem can be printed as a single piece. Turns out in my original submission...there was a gap between the base and the column so the computer was telling me I was stupid...can't print things in midair without it sitting on something.:?

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 Posted: Thu Jul 29th, 2021 06:10 pm
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Louis Luu
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Trying to design the brush holder today but is proving difficult without some actual brushes.  Need to drop by ACE to see what carbon brushes are readily available.  The brush holder will be printed...no casting.
The salmon color represents the casted diameter for the base, the red commutator and the yellow the brush holder.




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 Posted: Thu Jul 29th, 2021 07:33 pm
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Louis Luu
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Just got done from ACE...their carbon brushes was too thick and complicated to hook up and fit in the stem.  Will be borrowing another brush/commutator contact from one of the toy motors I have.  Only question I have is this...there is this circular spring that puts tension on the brush that makes contact with the commutator...does anyone know what it is called?



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 Posted: Thu Jul 29th, 2021 07:38 pm
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George Durbin
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Are is the measurement of the brushes you need? I have many to choose from...

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 Posted: Thu Jul 29th, 2021 07:40 pm
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Louis Luu
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Thanks George, I decided carbon brushes are too complicated. The copper plate contact on the commutator is fine...just like the ones in the toy motors.

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 Posted: Thu Jul 29th, 2021 07:51 pm
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Louis Luu
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Does anyone know what this spring is called?  This is the only part I need to solve the commutator contact before moving to easier stuff...motor housing and struts.



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 Posted: Fri Jul 30th, 2021 04:39 am
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William Dunlap
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Probably called a tension spring. Meant to keep the contact in tension against the commutator.

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 Posted: Fri Jul 30th, 2021 04:47 am
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Louis Luu
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I tried "tension spring"...no. "Torsion spring"?

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 Posted: Fri Jul 30th, 2021 04:49 am
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Louis Luu
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I think I found it...double torsion spring.

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 Posted: Fri Jul 30th, 2021 05:16 am
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William Dunlap
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Yeah, torsion spring. I google searched it and there are actually some springs available that look similar to this.Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Fri Jul 30th, 2021 09:03 pm
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Louis Luu
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Fix some blemishes...decided to finalize the parts without bondo for testing purposes.  The parts will be printed out and can be tested before casting.  Working on motor housing today.





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 Posted: Sat Jul 31st, 2021 12:55 am
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Louis Luu
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Got the front motor housing done today.



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