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Menominee fan back togeather not running. Help with finding the issue  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 03:54 pm
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Ed Teach
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Thanks for any help. So I got the Menominee back together. Sand blasted painted and rewired. Someone had been in to this before, the wires were all taped up with electrical tape including the winding's.  No him nothing. I made sure the brushes were touching cleaned the ends of the springs. The wires that came off the brass brush tubes were marked and the line in was marked so I did not get them mixed up. Thanks for any guidance. I may have to get the thing new winding. But I want to check out the other possibility first.

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 04:21 pm
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Anthony Lindsey
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I've had that happen a few times.  Fan is dead and I pulled the brushes in and out 3-4 times and then poof,  the fan starts running.   Try swapping sides on the brushes.
also poke the back of the brush with something thin to make sure it is up against the commutator.  I have had a brush get stuck on grit but thought it was making contact.

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 05:38 pm
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Ed Teach
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I took out the brushes and made sure they are touching the commuter. I did it a few times and can not get a thing out of it. The wingdings were taped with electrical tape. I am hoping someone did not bugger it up.

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 05:44 pm
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William Dunlap
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It could be anything. Start with "Plugs law" and work forward. If you have a voltmeter, check that there is voltage across the brush holders. If there is, then work toward the armature. If not, then work backwards from there.
Cheers,
Bill

Last edited on Thu Jun 10th, 2021 05:44 pm by William Dunlap

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 06:01 pm
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Ed Teach
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So 120 going to the windings and I am getting 1.3 1.2 reading on the brush tubes. So the motor is AC DC. What should the reading on a brush motor be at the brushes?

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 06:35 pm
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Ed Teach
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I pulled out the rotor and checked OHMs on the commutator. It reads 34 all the way around. So I don't think its the rotor.

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 07:07 pm
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Russ Huber
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Are your brush holder channels clean? 

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 08:21 pm
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Ed Teach
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I ran sandpaper through them.

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 08:55 pm
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Ed Teach
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I ran the tests on the rotor in this video. Some readings were not exactly the same but no short between the commutator and the armature stack.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmjFzukDhqI

Last edited on Thu Jun 10th, 2021 08:55 pm by Ed Teach

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 09:36 pm
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William Dunlap
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I did an armature lately that had odd readings. Only one coil had a fair bit less ohms than the rest. The fan would run slowly. It was breaking down internally and I had to have it re-wound.
I test between opposite contacts, just like where the brushes would sit. All readings should be very close.
Voltage at the brushes can be difficult to read. It's a weird kind of pulsating DC voltage, not the AC from the wall. It gets converted by the field coils before it gets to the brushes.
So, if any voltage is there, it a kind of indication that there is continuity between the plug, switch and field coils. Then it's down to brushes and armature as to where the problem lies, most likely.
Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 09:47 pm
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John McComas
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I like to use a growler armature tester...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2505460.m570.l1311&_nkw=growler+armature+tester&_sacat=0

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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 09:50 pm
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Ed Teach
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If I can not fix this is there anyone who rewinds these? Thanks. I would look for a donor but its doubtful I will find one.

Last edited on Thu Jun 10th, 2021 09:51 pm by Ed Teach

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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2021 02:23 am
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William Dunlap
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I've been fixing some oddball stuff lately. But you should be able to tell if the parts you have will work with just the simple tools you have. It would be nice to have a growler. I'll add it to the list of tools I'd like to have.
There are a couple of places around that rewind armatures. it's not cheap at 100-200$ a pop. But what are you going to do with that doorstop otherwise.
Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2021 08:30 am
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Ed Teach
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Not sure its the armature. I need to test the stater. Anyone know what reading I should get on the two wire stater? I ran a check on the stater and there is zero reading between the two line in wires. Is it possible that the person who wrapped the tape got the wires mixed up? How would you tell the stater line in wires from the line out to brushs? If it is a bad stater does anyone rewind them?

Last edited on Fri Jun 11th, 2021 09:18 am by Ed Teach

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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2021 09:25 am
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Ed Teach
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I tested all the wires from the stater and I get nothing between any of them.So the big issue is the stater I believe.

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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2021 02:41 pm
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Ed Teach
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I think I figured out what the issue is. Or at least one of them. Someone messed with the windings and they look like crap once I unwrapped them. I took them out and took off the tape. Looks like a rats nest.


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Last edited on Fri Jun 11th, 2021 08:53 pm by Ed Teach

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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2021 02:48 pm
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William Dunlap
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If you're lucky, once you unwrap the stator, you'll find the problem. Typical bush motors have dead simple field coils which are a great starting point for someone just getting into winding coils.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 12th, 2021 08:30 am
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Ed Teach
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Is this something I can do rewind the stater? If so can someone give me a crash course in how it should be done? Turns, where to get the wire and the process? Thanks. If not then I would like to send it out and have it done.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 12th, 2021 09:25 am
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Ed Teach
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So if I understand this correctly, since this is a brush motor I don't have to connect the ends in sequence. Power in and the other out to the commutator same with the other coil. Is this correct? So since I don't have any tools to do this I was thinking I could take a piece of wood and put the old windings on it and drill and put in small dowels four corners to make the same shape as the ones that came out. I can wind this by hand and what I would need to know is how many turns and what gauge wire. The insulator paper used is it special or can I wrap it in electrical tape where it fits into the armature? Also is there a particular sequence the in and out lines of each coil go in that does it matter what is power in and what is out to the brushes? Thanks for any help.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 12th, 2021 02:14 pm
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William Dunlap
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There are at least 5 ways to wire up a brushed motor. But, the most common way is in series. Positive goes into one side of one coil. The coils are connected together, then the remaining lead of the coils goes to the brush. The other brush goes to ground. With a universal motor using AC, you just assume one side is positive and go from there. If the motor runs backwards, just swap the bush leads.
Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Sat Jun 12th, 2021 04:14 pm
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Noah Britt
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You are going to want to unwind the coils and count the turns as you do so. I can't remember for sure, but I think you will need to rewind the new coils in the same direction as the old ones, so note the position and direction of each of the old coils. Measure the gauge of the old wire and buy the same gauge magnet wire. I recommend Temco. https://temcoindustrial.com/search-result/?search_query=magnet%20wire&

Then wind new coils on a jig like you mentioned, winding the same number of turns the original coils had. Below is an example of a jig I made to wind a speed coil. I had mine rigged up in a drill with the popsicle stick sticking out to make a click on a flexible piece of plastic (a credit card stapled to the countertop) every time it completed a turn, so I could wind it quickly and count the turns by ear. If you are winding yours by hand you can omit the popsicle stick thing.

You will probably want a jig with two "sides" that are the right distance apart to make the new coils the same width as the old ones. This way the coil won't spread too wide.

After the coil is wound, take it off the jig carefully, using string to get the coil to keep the right shape. Then varnish it with Sprayon insulating varnish. https://www.grainger.com/product/SPRAYON-Insulating-Varnish-1D268
The listing title says 12 oz. but it's 15 oz.



























Lastly, wrap the coils in friction tape (electrical tape is to crummy). You can probably find 3M friction tape at your local Walmart or online.


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 Posted: Sun Jun 13th, 2021 06:44 am
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Ed Teach
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OK Thanks I am going to give it a try. How do I match gauge wire? I found this on this site another thread. I can not think that this fan draws over 1.5 amps  
14 gauge - not over 15 A

17 gauge - not over 7.5 A

18 gauge - not over 6 A

20 gauge - not over 3.77 A

22 gauge - not over 2.38 A

24 gauge - not over 1.50 A

26 gauge - not over 0.95 A

28 gauge - not over 0.60 A

Last edited on Sun Jun 13th, 2021 06:51 am by Ed Teach

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 Posted: Sun Jun 13th, 2021 08:44 am
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Geoff Dunaway
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There is a tool that will give you the gauge of your wire after the insulation / varnish is burned off.Check with McMaster Car. When I was in college way back in1972 , my first significant Emerson fan was a 1010 with a shorted winding that would start / run but in short order be hot enough to fry an egg. :? I took the coils out, counted the turns in each bank. then put them on a piece of plywood , drew out the coil size & drilled the corners of the drawing inserting piano tuning pins in the board and wound each coil bank by hand. I had an electrician friend that sized and supplied the wire for me & to my amazement the fan ran once again cold to the touch ,and still runs today. Kudos for diving into that restoration  :up:

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 Posted: Sun Jun 13th, 2021 10:06 am
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Ed Teach
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Does it matter which way the coils turn? I pulled out the coils and I have no way now to tell which way they ran. Or does it not matter?

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