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 Posted: Fri Aug 20th, 2021 07:00 pm
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Dave Murray
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Hi all ,picked this fan today ,it says sprague but looks like a Ge, the brass tag says aou which should be Ge ,my ? What do I have here .thanks Dave

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 Posted: Fri Aug 20th, 2021 07:45 pm
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Russ Huber
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Sprague and GE officially merged in 1911. In 1919 Sprague badged and tagged GE AC fan motors under their name. Their DC model remained the patented Lundell motor. Sprague marketed the star oscillator in 19 and the bell oscillator in 20, both with green finish. Sprague ceased fan motor manufacture for the 21 season.





Last edited on Fri Aug 20th, 2021 07:46 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Fri Aug 20th, 2021 08:00 pm
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Dave Murray
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Thanks Russ , I was just reading the same article on the web , so I probably a 1920 ,but I thought with the cage wire bein wrapped rather then welded it should be a 1915 to 1917 ? Is the 6 wing fan common?

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 Posted: Fri Aug 20th, 2021 09:29 pm
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Russ Huber
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Dave Murray wrote: Thanks Russ , I was just reading the same article on the web , so I probably a 1920 ,but I thought with the cage wire bein wrapped rather then welded it should be a 1915 to 1917 ? Is the 6 wing fan common?
The guard is wrapped steel. The blade appears to be brass, did you check it with a magnet, or are you sure it's brass? No, 6 wing residence(6 pole slower motor) are not common finds, but they are not rare either, so don't quit your day job.  :D

Last edited on Fri Aug 20th, 2021 09:30 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Fri Aug 20th, 2021 09:35 pm
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Dave Murray
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Hey Russ ,the cage is brass and the blades are brass ,magnet test and I polished a little bit of the cage just to make sure .

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 02:23 am
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Dave Murray
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So ? ,I can’t find anything on this particular set up with the 6 blades ,would this be a special order fan ,Ge did not offer it either ,any help would be appreciated.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:11 am
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Steve Rockwell
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   It's not special order Dave... In the first picture I can't make out the badge, backlighting problem... Same as Russ, I question whether it's a mix and match. Those Spragues are not seen in huge numbers, perhaps it's more unusual for being 16-inch since most fans I've seen so close to the end of the run for GE residence fans are 12-inch.   All Form V3's I've seen have serial numbers; V6's and V9's have spec. numbers like yours, which is more a case of GE dropping serial numbers for a brief period prior to beginning an alpha-numeric numbering system, rather than a change away from serial numbers...
   Tell and show more. The stitched-together photo includes a GE from eBay Mar 2019.....



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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:12 am
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Steve Stephens
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Dave Murray wrote: So ? ,I can’t find anything on this particular set up with the 6 blades ,would this be a special order fan 
It's possible that someone way back when put the 6 wing blade on your fan.  If you can check the speed of the motor you will then know if the motor came with a 4 or a 6 wing blade.   Roughly 1700 rpm for 4 wings, 1200 for 6.  Another way is to determine how many poles the motor has; 4 for 4 wing, 6 for 6 wing.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:17 am
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Dave Murray
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The badge says sprague 

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:31 am
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Dave Murray
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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:31 am
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Dave Murray
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I think I may have been had :wondering: ,I may have got a little excited when I saw it ,got it for 150 guy was looking for two hundred, on of the coil wires broken ,not a big deal to fix . So is this fan considered a sprague or a GE ?

Last edited on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:39 am by Dave Murray

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:33 am
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Steve Stephens
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I had this 1920 Sprague.  Last year for the wrapped cage which would normally be a steel cage like this one, below.  But I had a Form AC, 1923, 16" GE AOU with a factory painted (like yours) brass cage.   Factory using up older stock possibly.   This fan has original paint, a very dark, almost black, green.






Last edited on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:33 am by Steve Stephens

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:43 am
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Dave Murray
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Mine has that Charleston green paint on the loop and base all the hardware and cage is brass, so in reality I should put the ;4 blade on here I have one in the garage to make it period correct? 

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:45 am
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Dave Murray
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It is true what smart people say ,knowledge is power ,I have a lot more learning to do ,I just hate getting done 

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:48 am
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Steve Stephens
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Your fan would be a "green" that was used by GE, probably not "Charleston Green".  GE called some of their later teens green "olive".  Charleston is a modern approximate match for some GE greens.
Before changing the blade on your fan find out if the motor is a 4 or 6 pole.   If it's a 6 pole you want to keep the 6 wing.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:49 am
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Dave Murray
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I posted a pic of the stator it looks like a 4 pole or coil

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:55 am
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Dave Murray
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One thing I don’t understand is if the tag say v6 that should correspond to 6 blades and v4 should be 4 blades  or an I wrong ,it won’t be the first time lol

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 09:52 am
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Lane Shirey
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My guess is that your stator has been overheated and will likely need to be replaced or rewound. All of the insulation appears to be burnt off. 

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 12:38 pm
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Steve Rockwell
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     Don't despair, at least not yet... 146079 is the model number for the 16-inch six-blade so-called residence fan with the electrical characteristics stamped on the tag, so there is agreement between tag and blade (thanks for badge photo as well)... And don't be concerned about stator poles (your 10th Post shows what I was after), GE was using a high slip motor to achieve slower speeds by that time, and if I understand rightly it's the rotor not the stator which is key... This is not to negate the 4-pole/6-pole information which applies to earlier iterations of the residence fans, but they changed, in a clever interesting way... Here are a few threads to read, and you should use the search function and look up "146079" as well as "78777" which is the 12-inch version of your fan. Then give "Sprague" a try... One thread (excerpted in 50571 below) relates how different rotors were exchanged using the same stator, resulting in different speeds... GE residence fans manufactured roughly 1910-1920, and yours is very much towards the end of that span.....


https://www.afcaforum.com/view_topic.php?id=50571

https://www.afcaforum.com/view_topic.php?id=50556

https://www.afcaforum.com/view_topic.php?id=24949

https://www.afcaforum.com/view_topic.php?id=53041

   Oh yeah, that V6 is not telling you it should have six pole or blades, though it does connote it being a residence fan...

   Regarding the brass/brass cage and blade, they may have been using up old 16-inch size stock... My 12-inch Sprague residence is steel/steel.....






Last edited on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 12:49 pm by Steve Rockwell

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 01:48 pm
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Steve Stephens
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Dave Murray wrote: One thing I don’t understand is if the tag say v6 that should correspond to 6 blades and v4 should be 4 blades  or an I wrong ,it won’t be the first time lolThe Form "letter' is not related to blades or number of poles in the motor.   I am not certain but I think of the letter as a "version", like an update or modification although I have never seen any explanation of the various letters.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 02:02 pm
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Russ Huber
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Your biggest concern would be your motor windings. They appear to be toasted. The funky shaded pole start motor winding simulates the field of 4 single poles as I understand it. It may not be a high slip motor to gain the lower speeds gained by a 6 pole. The pitch on those 16" GE 6 wing blades of that circa is shallow, and would doubtfully overwork a 4 pole motor.











Healthy winding.






Last edited on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 02:04 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 02:12 pm
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Russ Huber
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I am pretty sure this had a 4 pole motor, and check out the lame pitch on the 6 wing blade. 




Attached Image (viewed 327 times):

589494-14973184474473827.jpg

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 02:15 pm
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Russ Huber
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Find a 16" 4-6 wing GE stump of that time period with switch and rob Peter to pay Paul. :light:

Last edited on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 02:15 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 02:23 pm
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Dave Murray
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Steve thank you , such a world of knowledge on here ,my mind is blown away reading those treads .how much time has been spent researching and googling all these different fans is mind blowing ,I have always had a love for any kind of mechanical or electrical antiques it blows my mind how a person could sit down and say to himself yeah I am going to build a thing that moves air to cool a space or I am going to build a machine that will eliminate mules on a farm ,sorry for the rambling,       So today I will see if I can repair the coil / pole and see if it runs ,I do have two other stators from a 27 and a29 Ge aou ,form Ak and af ,,would one of them be a suitable replacement if I can’t repair the original, Steve thanks again for all that knowledge and everyone who has pitched in with their knowledge.
 Thanks Dave .

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 02:29 pm
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Dave Murray
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Hey Russ I may have a donor in the garage ,I recently bought two pot metal loop handled Ge,while unbeknownst to me that pot metal sucks got broken ,so I found a new gear housing to repair one of them the other shall be come the sacrificial lamb lol .if it works 

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 02:58 pm
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Jim Kovar
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Russ Huber wrote:

Haha!  :imao




GE should've just stuck
 to producing yo-yos.   :P



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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 02:59 pm
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Dave Murray
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Lol , all in all great machine 

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:13 pm
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Steve Rockwell
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Thank you for sharing all this Dave, the more data we have the more we can learn about this obscure portion of the story... The photos are of a 12-inch, earlier than yours by probably as much as a year, has the earlier oscillating disk and features. I counted 21 bars on the rotor so this is no help with the slow-speed conundrum; I have no stroboscope to time it, though I really want to purchase one... Tag and blade are in consonance, same as yours... You'll observe that I like to keep the external fan equally well-oiled, with a light layer of protective dust... I'm thinking you need to hunker down today for upcoming wind and water.....









Last edited on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:17 pm by Steve Rockwell

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:19 pm
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Dave Murray
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I think there is a big blow coming our way ,perfect day for tinkering around on this beauty ,plus I have a Ge form S to put back together finished cleaning and painted and polished ,good day for assembly,So if my stator is shot do ye have a source on here for someone to rewind?

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:24 pm
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Dave Murray
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So your fan is a two star 1919 ? So there is a 50/50 chance mine is legit ,I believe mine is a 1920 last year sprague built them and Ge fully absorbed the company. So much info my mind is sizzling lol

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:45 pm
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Jim Kovar
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Jim Kovar wrote: GE should've just stuck
 to producing yo-yos.   :P




On second thought...



Just as their motors, more
often than not, their yo-yos
also need to be rewound.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:50 pm
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Jim Kovar
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Dave Murray wrote: Lol , all in all great machine  
Agreed!  Great machine.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:53 pm
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Russ Huber
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Canadian GE supply catalogue 1920-21. Don't let the star oscillator images mislead you. They probably didn't update the images from 19.



Electrical supplies : catalogue number 20, 1920-1921 : Canadian General Electric Company : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Last edited on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 03:53 pm by Russ Huber

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 04:01 pm
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Dave Murray
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I’m liking what I am hearing ,so there is a 90% chance I have a original sprague/GE 6 banger ,

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 04:24 pm
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Jim Kovar
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Dave Murray wrote:

That's a four pole motor...

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 04:46 pm
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Steve Rockwell
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So your fan is a two star 1919 ? So there is a 50/50 chance mine is legit ,I believe mine is a 1920


Very possibly mine is 1918,




but 1919 will be close enough, some things we will never know...






   Here are tags, different form designation (T3 & V3), serial number difference 1404379 v. 1404577, different company designation, mine with two patent dates, the other with a single date... GE was shrinking motor size (the U in AOU), discarding then changing numbering systems, Spec.s and Forms are not necessarily sequential with each other... It's not clear to what extent Sprague Works took over Pittsfield Works fan production, nor is it remotely clear how they assigned the serial numbers or to what extent they allocated blocks of numbers for production nor whether allocations were designated for each of the three manufactories (this includes FWEW), and to top it off Hunter desk fans have to be considered... There is nothing hard and fast about GE information. I take the different variables, mix them all together, and make a guess...

   I can tell you these two things about residence fans from observing posted info: a) Form designation numerical sub-scripts invariably are multiples of three, i.e. documented form designations for residence fans are: P3, Q3, R3, R6, R9, R12, S3, S6, T3, T6, V3, V6, V9, W3... at some point a pattern seems to emerge; b) frequently, residence fan serial numbers are the lowest within the range of serial numbers of a particular Form designation.
   By the way, since you take good photos, could you snap a single image containing all of your tag, comparable to though better than the ones above?

   Calling yours 1920 seems justifiable, and I've not seen anything yet to dissuade me of its legitimacy... Some members have gone into great detail about these stators and rotors and their combinations, and there are masters at rewinding among the membership...

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 04:59 pm
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Dave Murray
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The speed controller is in the way for a full shot so when I take it apart I will post a full tag ,thanks Steve 

Last edited on Sat Aug 21st, 2021 05:03 pm by Dave Murray

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 05:09 pm
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Dave Murray
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W
What’s weird is it has all the characteristics of this Ge 16 inch fan form ad2 ,except.this one is dc ,

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 05:14 pm
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Dave Murray
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Was not 1920 the start of the bell oscillator,and 1919 the end of the two star ?

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 Posted: Sat Aug 21st, 2021 05:50 pm
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Levi Mevis
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I have a Hunter Rebadge of the GE 2-Star from possibly 1918, and mine too had a toasted stator unfortunately, and the stator in mine looked just like the OP's stator. 
I've checked around to see if any motor rewind shops around me would rewind the motor and they said it wasn't worth it because one of the motor shops was going to charge $250 to rewind the stator, and another shop was going to charge possibly as much as a $1000 to wind it properly.  :shock: :pissed

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