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Patina?  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Tue May 20th, 2014 08:37 pm
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Wayne Bengston
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That S4 is incredible.

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 Posted: Tue May 20th, 2014 08:48 pm
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Steve Stephens
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George Durbin wrote:
Yeah... I will edit that statement... "and adjusted the contacts on the rotor!" They are touchy in their adjustments!.

Contacts to the rotor?  That's an AC motor and I don't know where there would be contacts.  Maybe you mean to the start switch?

To be truthful I don't care for polished high gloss japan on old fans and have come to decide that after getting some fans which have been so treated.  But you did a nice job on the fan and saving the paint.  I've gotten to the point of being reluctant to clean japan too much for fear that it will be too glossy (which it probably was when new but maybe not quite so much as if polished).

Also, Century cast iron fan blades and cage were not polished when new, they had a type of gilt finish as did most GEs from 1908 to 1915.  Too much polished brass is overpowering to me and takes away the antique look for me.

Last edited on Tue May 20th, 2014 08:50 pm by Steve Stephens

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 Posted: Tue May 20th, 2014 09:15 pm
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George Durbin
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Contacts to the switch? I am no expert on these or even a very good amatuer... It is the copper leafy thing under that thar screw that protrudes into the motor and is tensioned against the rotor like thingy that you are saying is the switchamabob!:cool::cool:
geo...

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20140520_141318.jpg

Last edited on Tue May 20th, 2014 09:25 pm by George Durbin

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 Posted: Tue May 20th, 2014 09:38 pm
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George Durbin
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Steve Stephens wrote: George Durbin wrote:
Yeah... I will edit that statement... "and adjusted the contacts on the rotor!" They are touchy in their adjustments!.

Contacts to the rotor?  That's an AC motor and I don't know where there would be contacts.  Maybe you mean to the start switch?

To be truthful I don't care for polished high gloss japan on old fans and have come to decide that after getting some fans which have been so treated.  But you did a nice job on the fan and saving the paint.  I've gotten to the point of being reluctant to clean japan too much for fear that it will be too glossy (which it probably was when new but maybe not quite so much as if polished).

Also, Century cast iron fan blades and cage were not polished when new, they had a type of gilt finish as did most GEs from 1908 to 1915.  Too much polished brass is overpowering to me and takes away the antique look for me.



If that very expensive fan "for its time" was in an enviornment, or any other fan for that matter, and the owner cleaned their home and dusted and took some time, It was cleaned, buffed and waxed! I will let these blades and cage patina a little. Fans were a luxury! People took care of them... I would say fans got most of their abuse probably when second owners took them over or were handed down and the new owners did not respect them or knew how to maintain them,  then! they got run them into the dirt some 50 years later... JMHO...
geo...

Last edited on Tue May 20th, 2014 09:52 pm by George Durbin

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 Posted: Tue May 20th, 2014 10:04 pm
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Wayne Bengston
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I'm not saying this is the correct view, but my impression is that most Century's were used in more industrial settings where a dusting is the most likely thing they would get. I can just picture one or two of them in the old control rooms of the refinery here.

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 Posted: Tue May 20th, 2014 10:38 pm
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George Durbin
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Wayne Bengston wrote: I'm not saying this is the correct view, but my impression is that most Century's were used in more industrial settings where a dusting is the most likely thing they would get. I can just picture one or two of them in the old control rooms of the refinery here.

Hi Wayne!From everything I have read you are correct... If I had a way back machine that would be one of my many stops! FANS BEFORE THE 20s were quite a luxury for middle class and up. The cost were a couple of weeks wages... So I am pretty sure you took very good care of them...
Geo...

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 Posted: Tue May 20th, 2014 10:53 pm
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Steve Stephens
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I'm sure that many owners took very good care of their fans including dusting, certainly lubricating, maybe washing dirty blades but I would be surprised if a significant number would polish and wax the fans.  It doesn't really matter because we have no way of knowing how the first owners treated their expensive fans.   My comments were mostly to say how I prefer my fans; others will probably want their fans to be different.  My way is correct only for me.

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 12:24 am
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Dick Evins
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I was scanning a book written by Robert Ballard (or someone on his expedition) as an account of the location of the Titanic and there was a photo of a cabin on one of the lower levels that had a wall mounted fan that had those wedge shaped blades (similar to a slice of pizza).  Then somewhere on the same page was a photo of a similar fan lying on the sea floors partially covered in muck with the blades and cage partially visible.  They didn't retrieve it.  :X

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 12:33 am
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George Durbin
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That would be some major provenance!!Geo...

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 01:12 am
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Mark Janovec
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In my opinion, there is a split market out there for antique fans:

1. There are the collectors who want to assemble a collection of their favorite models. While some of these collectors might sometimes like shiny, fully restored fans, the collectors market often prefers original surfaces whenever possible. These collectors will scour antique shops, flea markets, garage sales, and the internet, hoping to locate specific models at the lowest possible price.

2. There are the non-collectors who are seeking an antique fan as a functional display piece for their home or office. They want a relic of the past that is fully restored and runs reliably, but can serve as a conversation piece (or a functional decoration) for their living space. They don't want 20 different fans...they just want one perfect fan. These buyers aren't necessarily looking for original finish or patina...they often want a glossy shine, a piece that will really catch the eye. And they may be willing to dig deep in their wallet to obtain a nice "show" piece.

While not all fan buyers will neatly fit into either category above, it could explain why shiny restored fans might appeal to one type of buyer, while original paint (and preservation) might appeal to another buyer.

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 02:04 am
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Tom Dreesen
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Mark Janovec wrote: In my opinion, there is a split market out there for antique fans:

1. There are the collectors who want to assemble a collection of their favorite models. While some of these collectors might sometimes like shiny, fully restored fans, the collectors market often prefers original surfaces whenever possible. These collectors will scour antique shops, flea markets, garage sales, and the internet, hoping to locate specific models at the lowest possible price.

2. There are the non-collectors who are seeking an antique fan as a functional display piece for their home or office. They want a relic of the past that is fully restored and runs reliably, but can serve as a conversation piece (or a functional decoration) for their living space. They don't want 20 different fans...they just want one perfect fan. These buyers aren't necessarily looking for original finish or patina...they often want a glossy shine, a piece that will really catch the eye. And they may be willing to dig deep in their wallet to obtain a nice "show" piece.

While not all fan buyers will neatly fit into either category above, it could explain why shiny restored fans might appeal to one type of buyer, while original paint (and preservation) might appeal to another buyer.

No doubt about it Mark.

But, the real question is one of value as well as esthetics.

And there is no question that when speaking of 5K plus fans, a well preserved *original* fan is worth more than a restored version on the open market.

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 02:38 am
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George Durbin
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Huh?  WAHHH?An Adams Bagnall Gyrofan has just showed up on the BST. Guy hasn't posted the required price but the sharks are circling and I bet he is now receiving more pm's than he knows what to do with!If it was nicely restored it would be worth much more... Even if it runs perfectly and preserved... So far I see no examples to disprove it... Yeah I know I am stirring the pot! This discussion is fun... I am open minded about all this, sorta... I think each fan will talk to you and tell you what it needs:D:D.... No one procedure is best, and there are no absolutes
Geo...

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 05:02 am
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John Rothrock
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Steve Stephens wrote: I'm sure that many owners took very good care of their fans including dusting, certainly lubricating, maybe washing dirty blades but I would be surprised if a significant number would polish and wax the fans.  It doesn't really matter because we have no way of knowing how the first owners treated their expensive fans.   My comments were mostly to say how I prefer my fans; others will probably want their fans to be different.  My way is correct only for me.
I know it's a little bit different, but my Father always made me wax any new piece of farm equipment or lawn mower etc that we got, also old trailers, pretty much anything with paint, at the time, I didn't get it at all, but I have to say his stuff held up pretty well.  He picked that up from somewhere--I'm sure some waxed their fans

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 06:09 am
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Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote:
Huh?  WAHHH?An Adams Bagnall Gyrofan has just showed up on the BST. Guy hasn't posted the required price but the sharks are circling and I bet he is now receiving more pm's than he knows what to do with!If it was nicely restored it would be worth much more... Even if it runs perfectly and preserved... So far I see no examples to disprove it... Yeah I know I am stirring the pot! This discussion is fun... I am open minded about all this, sorta... I think each fan will talk to you and tell you what it needs:D:D.... No one procedure is best, and there are no absolutes
Geo...


Neither original nor excellent condition.

How many holes are you going to put in your feet?

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 06:24 am
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Josh Backens
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Steve Stephens wrote: John Rothrock wrote: As I see it Great Original>Great restore>shabby original>shabby restore

signed

Lurker
How I see it:

Great original > great preservation.

Shabby original > great restoration.  

At least that's how I think it works out best.
Simply said.... Simply true. IMO... 

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 06:31 am
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Josh Backens
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Tom Dreesen wrote: Mark Janovec wrote: In my opinion, there is a split market out there for antique fans:

1. There are the collectors who want to assemble a collection of their favorite models. While some of these collectors might sometimes like shiny, fully restored fans, the collectors market often prefers original surfaces whenever possible. These collectors will scour antique shops, flea markets, garage sales, and the internet, hoping to locate specific models at the lowest possible price.

2. There are the non-collectors who are seeking an antique fan as a functional display piece for their home or office. They want a relic of the past that is fully restored and runs reliably, but can serve as a conversation piece (or a functional decoration) for their living space. They don't want 20 different fans...they just want one perfect fan. These buyers aren't necessarily looking for original finish or patina...they often want a glossy shine, a piece that will really catch the eye. And they may be willing to dig deep in their wallet to obtain a nice "show" piece.

While not all fan buyers will neatly fit into either category above, it could explain why shiny restored fans might appeal to one type of buyer, while original paint (and preservation) might appeal to another buyer.

No doubt about it Mark.

But, the real question is one of value as well as esthetics.

And there is no question that when speaking of 5K plus fans, a well preserved *original* fan is worth more than a restored version on the open market.
I don't have time to argue, nor do I have time to pick through this "reply" and delete non necessary information (it's getting late and I'm hungry :D). I do have the time, right now, to say look at Alan Wilms properly restored Edison's. They seem to sell for more than "market value" from what I've seen researching the AFCA's previous sales on iron clads, 6 and 12 pole c frames....... And, as you may know, they are over 5k fans. Just sayin.... 

Last edited on Wed May 21st, 2014 06:32 am by Josh Backens

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 06:31 am
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George Durbin
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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote:
Huh?  WAHHH?An Adams Bagnall Gyrofan has just showed up on the BST. Guy hasn't posted the required price but the sharks are circling and I bet he is now receiving more pm's than he knows what to do with!If it was nicely restored it would be worth much more... Even if it runs perfectly and preserved... So far I see no examples to disprove it... Yeah I know I am stirring the pot! This discussion is fun... I am open minded about all this, sorta... I think each fan will talk to you and tell you what it needs:D:D.... No one procedure is best, and there are no absolutes
Geo...


Neither original nor excellent condition.

How many holes are you going to put in your feet?

You are right about not original! I know very little about them and could see it has issues. And I defer to you guys that know... Holes in my feet? I removed my shoes and socks and had a GOOD look... Nope, no holes...:DI have not been shot down yet!! Keep tryin!:cool::cool:
geo...

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 02:32 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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Josh Backens wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote: Mark Janovec wrote: In my opinion, there is a split market out there for antique fans:

1. There are the collectors who want to assemble a collection of their favorite models. While some of these collectors might sometimes like shiny, fully restored fans, the collectors market often prefers original surfaces whenever possible. These collectors will scour antique shops, flea markets, garage sales, and the internet, hoping to locate specific models at the lowest possible price.

2. There are the non-collectors who are seeking an antique fan as a functional display piece for their home or office. They want a relic of the past that is fully restored and runs reliably, but can serve as a conversation piece (or a functional decoration) for their living space. They don't want 20 different fans...they just want one perfect fan. These buyers aren't necessarily looking for original finish or patina...they often want a glossy shine, a piece that will really catch the eye. And they may be willing to dig deep in their wallet to obtain a nice "show" piece.

While not all fan buyers will neatly fit into either category above, it could explain why shiny restored fans might appeal to one type of buyer, while original paint (and preservation) might appeal to another buyer.

No doubt about it Mark.

But, the real question is one of value as well as esthetics.

And there is no question that when speaking of 5K plus fans, a well preserved *original* fan is worth more than a restored version on the open market.
I don't have time to argue, nor do I have time to pick through this "reply" and delete non necessary information (it's getting late and I'm hungry :D). I do have the time, right now, to say look at Alan Wilms properly restored Edison's. They seem to sell for more than "market value" from what I've seen researching the AFCA's previous sales on iron clads, 6 and 12 pole c frames....... And, as you may know, they are over 5k fans. Just sayin....

Were the fans that were restored already in excellent original condition?

That is the comparison to make.

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 03:05 pm
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Steven P Dempsey
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Here is a most Excellent R&M Tank by Carlton Ward  - - 98% original paint. I can live with a few blemishes. How much would this fan cost with a TOTAL tear down & re-paint?


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Carlton Ward R&M.jpg

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 03:11 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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Steven P Dempsey wrote: Here is a most Excellent R&M Tank by Carlton Ward  - - 98% original paint. I can live with a few blemishes. How much would this fan cost with a TOTAL tear down & re-paint?
The cost of the redo or the value of the fan after the redo?

Not the same thing ...

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 03:23 pm
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George Durbin
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I would leave that alone!! It's been gone through, not a lot to gain on that one...

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 03:33 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: I would leave that alone!! It's been gone through, not a lot to gain on that one...
No one would argue that any fan should remain in "as found" condition.

Many items need a redo to get them into functional and or presentable condition.

The proper comparison is an excellent condition original vs a restored version.

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 08:44 pm
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George Durbin
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Tom Dreesen wrote: George Durbin wrote: I would leave that alone!! It's been gone through, not a lot to gain on that one...
No one would argue that any fan should remain in "as found" condition.

Many items need a redo to get them into functional and or presentable condition.

The proper comparison is an excellent condition original vs a restored version.


I always wonder how many pre 1930 fans might be out there in a new unopened box somewhere...:? I think thats what keeps us hunting!geo...

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 Posted: Wed May 21st, 2014 08:52 pm
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Tim Marks
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George Durbin wrote: I would leave that alone!! It's been gone through, not a lot to gain on that one...
The stripes on that one appear to have almost definitely been gone over. Not original.

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 07:47 am
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René Rondeau
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I've been a phonograph collector for well over 50 years. I've only been into fans for about 6 years. My general impression is that there is a major difference in collecting philosophy. Perhaps not as extreme as the Roadshow allusions to furniture or lamp collectors, but in a similar vein.

Among phonograph collectors, originality is king. Restoration is accepted only when a machine is so far gone that it is truly ugly and the original surfaces not salvageable. Otherwise it comes down to conservation, not restoration. No one wants something with crud, dirt, rust and other ugly damage. The trick is to clean off such filth without losing the whatever original luster/finish remains. This is exactly what museums do today. Years ago they were all about restoration; there are some god-awful restored pieces in the Smithsonian that were done in the 60s/70s. No one would do that today. A good conservator can work magic, bringing a wreck back to life but without doing anything that permanently changes the fundamental integrity of the piece. Dirt and grime is not integrity; original paint is. It's possible to clean brass and prevent degradation without polishing to a high luster and lacquering it to keep it shiny.

A few years ago I found myself in the highly amazing situation of being offered two C&C bulb resistance fans at the same time: one gorgeously restored, one (mostly) original. Both were stunning in their own way but to me it was a no-brainer. I went for original, even though the cost was higher. Any antique is only original once. When I compare the sharp edges of my original base with original japanning, despite some chips and flaws, to the heavily polished and painted restored base I can see that tremendous amount of fine detail was lost in the restoration.

Again, sometimes an object is too far gone for conservation and restoration is the only option. But far too often a perfectly nice original piece is painted and polished to make it shiny and 'new' when conservation would have been the best choice.

I am guilty of that myself. Years ago I had a very fine original 1935 slot machine. It was excellent in every way. But I wanted a project so I decided to strip, buff, paint, and refinish the cabinet, and replace the reel strips. Very, very few slot machines survive in original condition, much less excellent original condition. In retrospect, I ruined a wonderful machine and turned into just another restored slot, indistinguishable from a thousand others -- or from some replicas. Once I woke up and realized what I had done I couldn't stand the piece and I sold it -- at a loss. I have since replaced it with a fine original, exactly like the first one I had. I will never restore it, but I will keep it maintained -- cleaned as needed, oiled, and functional. That's conservation.

My 2c and well worth it in today's economy....

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c-c.jpg

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 08:15 am
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René Rondeau
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While I'm at it, a few more thoughts that I should have included: what Ron Jeter does with his famous Q-tips is conservation at its most meticulous. His attention to detail in removing every speck of grime while keeping the original finish is mind-boggling and clearly a labor of love. I really admire that. To me that's infinitely better than bead-blasting a casting and painting/clear-coating it to better than new.

I also understand that sometimes that doesn't work. I have some restored fans. Some could even be called "blinged out", though not with non-authentic color schemes. My Crocker-Wheeler is one of them. It was beyond mere conservation, that one needed full-bore restoration, top to bottom. But-- I like it far more today than when I bought it. Why? Well, the nickel plating has started to tone very nicely over the past few years. It is no longer brilliantly shiny and new. It is showing -- dare I say it? -- genuine patina. I'll like it even more in 10 years when the nickel has dulled further, to the point that it will be hard to distinguish from original century-old plating.

It's sort of like my 1928 Ford, which I drive daily. It was restored over 20 years ago. It shows age. It has some wear and dings and chips. Anyone with only passing knowledge would look at it and think it is a remarkably well-maintained original. Of course it's not, but I love the fact that it doesn't look like a fresh, new restoration. It shows age. In this case, like the Crocker-Wheeler, not original age but both are now a long way from shiny bling, and I love them all the more for that. Those are to me the ideal restorations: they don't look new.

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 02:49 pm
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John Trier
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Rene' ..... very well said, every word.  Great big picture look into this topic.

I appreciate it when this topic of restoration vs. original is placed into a larger context of other fields of collecting.   In those areas in which I collect, there is no substitute for original finishes.   When that is not possible, or an object has been poorly restored or polished, the artisans, in those fields,  are recognized in restoring patina to a given object.  This has to be ultimately more difficult than a showroom finish that we see here. 

I'm concerned that we see fans that have finishes that were never seen when produced, I'm concerned that we see fans created that were never originally produced.  We must be careful to protect our hobby and our investments.  I'm reminded of the confederate civil war sword.   So often reproduced, and so well done, that no confederate sword has much value any more because of how muddy those waters became. 

I wish someone would specialize in the restoration of fans to look old.  I've tried to not reply to this thread but failed again.   To me, this is a very important topic.   My friend Jeff Lock of Colonial instruments is a master of "older" restorations of scientific instruments.   There is no one better,  he signs replacement parts on important instruments.  For a philosophical look into his business and restorations, here's a link...... again.   

http://www.colonialinstruments.com

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 03:49 pm
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John Trier
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Just one more thing……..   I have collected surveying instruments as well as fans.   Both have something in common.    They were both used, and used hard.   Surveying compasses were carried into the field in the rain and the mud, handled and handled relentlessly.    Even in well cared for condition, they carry a high degree of patina.  Fans are the same ……. used, year after year and as a result will also obtain a grand patina, even if well cared for.   Microscopes are different.  I feel, even during their day, among  those that used them,  they could have wore white gloves with respect for their instrument.  They are often found in pristine original condition with grand walnut storage boxes. 

One important distinction is also the fact that certain fans are common, in comparison.   There are plenty of 1902 pancakes for both camps.  But when it comes to rare fans from the 1890’s,  that is a different matter and collectors really need to think about how, or if, these fans are handled.   Pictured is a rare pillared transit in “as found” condition.  To polish it in anyway, would ruin it’s value and no knowledgeable collector would accept this instrument in polished condition. 

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DSC_0011.JPG.JPG

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 06:24 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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John Trier wrote: Just one more thing……..   I have collected surveying instruments as well as fans.   Both have something in common.    They were both used, and used hard.   Surveying compasses were carried into the field in the rain and the mud, handled and handled relentlessly.    Even in well cared for condition, they carry a high degree of patina.  Fans are the same ……. used, year after year and as a result will also obtain a grand patina, even if well cared for.   Microscopes are different.  I feel, even during their day, among  those that used them,  they could have wore white gloves with respect for their instrument.  They are often found in pristine original condition with grand walnut storage boxes. 

One important distinction is also the fact that certain fans are common, in comparison.   There are plenty of 1902 pancakes for both camps.  But when it comes to rare fans from the 1890’s,  that is a different matter and collectors really need to think about how, or if, these fans are handled.   Pictured is a rare pillared transit in “as found” condition.  To polish it in anyway, would ruin it’s value and no knowledgeable collector would accept this instrument in polished condition.

You got it John.

Most scientific instruments were well cared for.  Maybe not polished all the time, but definitely kept in clean condition until technology improved and instruments replaced.  They were then put into storage and never saw the light of day until some lab cleanout.  The instruments most likely develop their "patina" while in decades of storage.

I don't like them highly polished either, but then, I don't collect them.

 

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 07:16 pm
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René Rondeau
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John Trier wrote:  I'm reminded of the confederate civil war sword.   So often reproduced, and so well done, that no confederate sword has much value any more because of how muddy those waters became.
I'm wandering a bit off-topic here but you bring up a good point. There is certainly a need for well-made replica parts in order to restore fans (and other antiques) that so often are missing critical details. Obviously there are a couple of directions people can go with replica parts -- full-bore restoration, or 'aging' a new part to match the luster of an original piece and fit in unobtrusively.

Fortunately in the fan world replicas of entire fans aren't often encountered. (At least one exception, however: lots and lots of totally fake Jost hot-air motor fans are being made in Asia.) But the danger is there, and that danger is something which a lot of hobbies face -- like the aforementioned Confederate sword: some reproductions are so well done that they can be hard to detect as copies. And over the long term, these bring down the value of originals.

I hope that doesn't start to happen with rare fans, but I suspect there could already be some "conversions" turning fairly common styles into rarer variations, and those could have long term affect on the hobby.

The coin-op hobby is tanking because of all the fakes out there. It has become very, very hard to find some original slot machines, trade stimulators, and arcade machines because they are outnumbered by fakes, some of which are very well-made. Others wouldn't fool an experienced collector, but newcomers to the hobby are falling for them every day.

And not just on eBay, which we know is a 'buyer beware' minefield. The largest specialty auction house in antique coin-ops routinely offers fakes as part of every auction, and almost never are they identified as such. I find that appalling. They know better but they're putting a quick buck above a trustworthy reputation.

Some go beyond mere fakes, taking an original mechanism from one machine and putting it into a newly-cast case that makes it a great rarity. There's now even a whole range of fantasy creations. machines that never really existed. Again, experienced collectors won't fall for them but new collectors are getting burned all the time, and a lot of them quit the hobby in disgust when they find out how badly they were taken. Talk to any long-time coin-op collector and you'll hear the same complaint: the hobby is dying, death by a thousand small cuts.

Collectors need to be vigilant about guarding the integrity of the hobby, and part of that is being honest about any restoration that may have been done. If I sell something that I know has reproduction parts, no matter how unobtrusive they may be, I make it a point to clearly describe every non-original piece. But I can't count on the buyer, or the buyer after him, doing the same. Someday, long after I'm gone, many of these reproduction parts will be virtually impossible to detect. Like so many of the parts in the fan hobby, they almost too perfectly made. That's a mixed blessing.

[/OT]

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 07:19 pm
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Lamar Bass
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Thanks John and Rene', for your comments and insight. I too have been following this thread with interest while trying to avoid comment, knowing which side each would take. Personally I don't much care for dirt and rust, and tend toward the shine, but I have also made my share of mistakes in that regard.
I've always realized however that there are no absolutes concerning all of these  restoration vs. not even wiping the dust off discussions. I have never read anything concerning this topic that I agree with more, Rene'.
 

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 09:16 pm
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William Dunlap
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I'm flabbergasted and a bit disturbed by this kind of discussion regarding what is in reality just old appliances.
No fan ever won a war. There are no re-enactments of great fan moments. Yes, they were made in a time where quality craftsmanship meant something......that's what's dying.
Collect that, if you must collect something.
Anything created by Kim, Darryl, Tom and quite a few others is at a level never imagined by the original craftsmen. I think they would be suitably impressed.

The more I think about a fan, a toaster, an old telephone or radio reaching thousands of dollars, the weirder it appears to me.

Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 10:12 pm
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Tom Dreesen
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William Dunlap wrote: I'm flabbergasted and a bit disturbed by this kind of discussion regarding what is in reality just old appliances.
No fan ever won a war. There are no re-enactments of great fan moments. Yes, they were made in a time where quality craftsmanship meant something......that's what's dying.
Collect that, if you must collect something.
Anything created by Kim, Darryl, Tom and quite a few others is at a level never imagined by the original craftsmen. I think they would be suitably impressed.

The more I think about a fan, a toaster, an old telephone or radio reaching thousands of dollars, the weirder it appears to me.

Cheers,
Bill

Bill,

You must go into conniption fits whenever you see what old pieces of stone used to pound poi go for ...

 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/200606A44.html

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 10:30 pm
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William Dunlap
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Nah, my emotional range is extremely limited tending to lean towards "a bit disturbed" at the outside.
Mostly I ignore the goings on of others with more money than sense and go about my daily business, whatever it may be. Hanging doors, refinishing cabinets for the landlady, restoring old motorbikes and old fans. You know, craftsmanship.
Cheers,
Bill

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 Posted: Sat May 24th, 2014 11:35 pm
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John Trier
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William Dunlap wrote: I'm flabbergasted and a bit disturbed by this kind of discussion regarding what is in reality just old appliances.
No fan ever won a war. There are no re-enactments of great fan moments. Yes, they were made in a time where quality craftsmanship meant something......that's what's dying.
Collect that, if you must collect something.
Anything created by Kim, Darryl, Tom and quite a few others is at a level never imagined by the original craftsmen. I think they would be suitably impressed.

The more I think about a fan, a toaster, an old telephone or radio reaching thousands of dollars, the weirder it appears to me.

Cheers,
Bill

There is no question about the talent available within the AFCA.  There is also no question about the value of these mass produced "appliances".   However, it is a concern if some of this talent or others would decide to start making Paragon's or Iron Clads indistinguishable from originals.   Those who invested tens of thousands of dollars into an original example would see their investment wiped out, and then a dark cloud hovers over the entire field of fan collecting. 
  
Authentic reproduction parts are necessary to everyone who collects anything.  I hope I'm not misunderstood.  Jeff Lock, mentioned above, has been widely criticized for his honesty and the fact that he signs reproduction parts.  Those who have instruments with reproduction parts would prefer that it would be their own private dirty little secret and not identified as reproduction.

If you can access archives of 60 minutes, do a search on reproductions of old masters and art forgery.   This guy ...... could reflect the style of virtually any old master and could pass off paintings as authentic.   His angle: ........ Claim they were stolen by the Nazi's during WWII and then recovered.  They then became "new to the market" ....  This guy bought old paintings just to get the wooden frame to stretch the canvas.   The paint he used was chemically perfect.  He made millions and even attended the auctions where his forgeries were sold.   He got caught using a "white" color that the experts discovered didn't exist a century ago. 

Last edited on Sat May 24th, 2014 11:36 pm by John Trier

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 Posted: Sun May 25th, 2014 01:16 am
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William Dunlap
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I have tried to remain true to the original post topic and many have contributed to the discussion constructively, but I have to take exception to the notion that our hobby is being harmed by anyone's participation in it whether they are personal museum curators, hobbyists, craftsmen, or interior decorators.I have been involved in other hobbies that are much more active and vibrant that fan collecting and there are some obvious reasons why.

If fans are simply acquired, dusted and put away on the shelf, eventually all the fans will be accounted for and the hobby will just die.

End of story.

If folks are actively buying, selling, restoring and using these fans, everyone will benefit. The trade in fans is what keeps it alive. Fans moving around from one person to the next is the lubrication that makes the whole thing run.

We absolutely need folks who are willing to remake these fans and parts and keep the hobby going.

Based on the logic I've seen above, any kidney oscillator with a reproduction gearbox is next to worthless. How far from the truth is that?

I would love to see someone reproduce a quality pancake at a reasonable price. I'd save my money and buy one. Don't think for a minute that having a flawless reproduction pancake on the market would in any way devalue original ones. Wouldn't happen.

If anything, it would stimulate MORE interest in these fans, I guarantee it.
Meeston, you bet, but actually, they're not a great fan for daily use, are they? That probably wouldn't fly, because as the original makers would tell you, fans got a lot better later on.

I will concede that there are a few early fans that transcended the mundane life of an appliance and entered the realm of fine art.  They belong in museums.
I'll never own one because I'm just not interested in museum pieces.

As investments are concerned. I can think of a dozen better ways to get a better return on your money.
Cheers,Bill


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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2014 06:26 pm
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David Hoatson
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There it is. I finally got down to the original patina!

Attached Image (viewed 530 times):

image.jpg

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 Posted: Mon May 26th, 2014 06:31 pm
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George Durbin
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The only patina in that booth is laying in the bottom!

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 12:50 am
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George Durbin
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The thing about fans is you must maintain them if your going to run them safely. It is an electrical appliance of course, so you are changing them...Just got back from pig picking yesterday and it was nice weather! Good friends new and old. On the benches were fans of all kinds! Inexpensive fans clear up to the multi thousand dollar fans. That's another good thing about collecting fans, there is a price level for everyone! Every one was doing their own thing. Repairing, restoring at different levels and every one was pitching in and helping each other to get to where the OWNER of the fan thought it should go... When asked what to do with a repair or a restore, advice was given from many members. The OWNER of the fan then decided or will decide what they will do with it. There is NO one right answer!
It's all between your ears...
Geo...

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 Posted: Tue May 27th, 2014 01:38 am
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Tom Dreesen
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George Durbin wrote: The thing about fans is you must maintain them if your going to run them safely. It is an electrical appliance of course, so you are changing them...Just got back from pig picking yesterday and it was nice weather! Good friends new and old. On the benches were fans of all kinds! Inexpensive fans clear up to the multi thousand dollar fans. That's another good thing about collecting fans, there is a price level for everyone! Every one was doing their own thing. Repairing, restoring at different levels and every one was pitching in and helping each other to get to where the OWNER of the fan thought it should go... When asked what to do with a repair or a restore, advice was given from many members. The OWNER of the fan then decided or will decide what they will do with it. There is NO one right answer!
It's all between your ears...
Geo...


George,

It is clear you can't understand.

There is a real value difference in excellent original condition 5K plus fans vs restored.

Anyone can do what they want to any item they own.  But please, if you do run across a rare excellent condition anything, offer it for sale before you ruin it.

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