AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Pre-1950 (Antique) > Missing Link Found in Saint Louis
AFCA Forums > Antique Fan Collectors Association > Pre-1950 (Antique) > Missing Link Found in Saint Louis | |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member 
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Talk about a thrill---even @ 83. Yesterday I was able to buy locally one of the known but never seen (by me) variations of the Meston! I know there are those who do not believe things exist if they don't see a picture, but I am of the old school and if I can see it, hear and smell it run, feel it in my hands, I believe it exists. No, I don't taste them---not even a Meston! I just might send it to Fan-Fair to show the "Doubting Thomas's". First it came with a steel wire clothes hanger used as a carrying handle, which was scratching the name tag and paint. I removed that instantly. Sorry, no picture, but I saved and will keep them together. It has been very well used as is obvious by the bearing (bronze end caps) wear. The owner solved that, at least for about 105 years by using fine braided copper wire and filling the space between the shaft and the end caps. Another first to me is the blade. It is 4 wing, 12" Parker, nickel plated and has a hub with a round nose through which the shaft protrudes. Obviously a late Meston, probably 1900 (the wrong earlier, M1 & M2 models are still listed in the 1898 catalog). Next is the cage, again one I have never seen before. It is brass, 8 wire, crossing in the center, but has a unique rear. There is a cast adapter (about 6' diam.) to be able to mount the 8 wires onto the 3 mounting holes on the front of all Mestons. I feel sure it is factory and the wires are wrapped clockwise with Emerson shortened machine screws with large diameter heads, as used on the desk and ceiling fans. Those are the differences I find immediately on my new F I 1, 60 cycles, 7200 Alts. Per. Min., 104 volt 4th? model Meston with the hanging switch (first used on '94 Meston) No. 878. Last patent is Sept. 18 '94. Can hardly wait to get to all of my Emerson catalogs of that era to identify this better, although the old timers descendants of the original illustrators do tell me Emerson often used old cuts to save money. This makes a problem for those who put all of their wrong opinions on pictures and various non-factory articles, not reality. I'm leaving it as found for now. |
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Dan Hilton AFCA Member
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Great story! Can't wait to see it in person or pictures posted here. If you need a transporter to get it to FF to show it off I can oblige. Look forward to hearing the story of how you tracked it down too. ........Dan H. |
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Kim Frank AFCA Member 
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Congratulations Emerson Bill......or is it Meston Emerson Bill now. I love to hear these kinds of stories.....that jaded old collectors can still be thrilled by something other than a regular bowel movement.....Most excellent find......You should come to Indy to show it off.....and bring the Gemerson too..... Last edited on Tue Jul 1st, 2014 09:31 pm by Kim Frank |
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Steven P Dempsey Guest 
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Pictures Please!! |
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Gary Buchanan AFCA Member
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Congradulations Bill love to hear stories like that. Great find! |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hey Kim, Thanks for the kind words and medical advice. Glad you appreciate the new find. I was thinking about you when I was finishing am Emmy and was doing the final fitting. Of course that is done, running, with the front cover off, to make it easy and precise. How do you do that with all of those two bearing off brands that you deal with? I have kept about a dozen Meston and Emerson tripods and of course am still hoping to find Meston models 2001 (1891) & 2002 (1892). Maybe I will send the new one and that half-good GEmerson, to Fan-Fair, except I remember last year. Just plain, Emerson Bill |
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Kim Frank AFCA Member
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You just send those two fans over to Indy and I'll put them in my display area... I'll make sure that nobody tries to straighten the cages on them. Better yet, leave your sweet young bride at home, catch a ride over to FF, and you, Jon Brown, and myself will go out a hit some bars during the dull times..... |
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Mark Behrend AFCA Member 
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Congrats Bill, I'm going to try to swing by some time this week. I could take some pictures for you and post them. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Sounds great. I'm disassembling and cleaning it and discovered the cage is also nickel plated and the adapter to Meston has a casting number and resembles the three piece normal Meston struts. Separately they will photograph better and mean a lot more than when assembled, including the unique blade. I have Parker blades with Pat. Applied for and Patent Pending but this has the usual stamping. |
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Bill Arfmann AFCA Member
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Just plain, Emerson Bill-- Let us add our congratulations from the prairies of Nebraska! We can't wait to hear the story!!! |
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Ron Jeter Guest 
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Bill: That's a great find and will be added to the AFCA Emerson Survey and Thanks for all the info. This one does have the brass guard and will be noted on the survey! Thanks again. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Ron, After checking with all the people I know who have Mestons I feel sure you can change the survey list as we discussed. Emerson obviously started new numbers for the '94 model. Ignoring the first two models with the 11" blades of 1891 & 1892, I reviewed the early catalogs--'92 (first), '93, '94, '95, '96, '97, & '98, '99, and concluded: The 12" open and closed guards were available from '92 on; The open center knock down cage was introduced in '96 for both 12" & 16" Mestons. The 12" had 3 flat struts. The 16" Type M. 2. appears to be the first use of the adapter ring. The outer 8 holes match the spacing of the Emerson tripods which arrived in the '97 catalog. From then on any Emerson tripod cage could be used on the Mestons (with the adapter ring--12" or 16"); The '97 pattern guard has the cross wire centers and at that time they offered six guards ranging in price from $1.25 to $5.00, brass, polished brass or nickel; By '98 eight guards were available with the addition of the 1898 pattern in both 12" & 16"; In 1899 they introduced the hollow shaft motor and the Parker blade and no longer listed the Mestons. The only explanation I can come up with for my combination of blade and cage on a Meston is that it was awarded to someone that way. Emerson throughout there history frequently did this. Old employees often give that detail when visiting with them. Hope this isn't too confusing and is probably of interest to very few. |
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Steve Stephens Guest 
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Bill, I am hoping you or someone will post some photos of your new find. What exactly makes an Emerson a "Meston"? How can one be certain that an Emerson is a Meston and not another model of a tripod? |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Steve,All fans made by the Emerson Co. from 1890 to 1895 are Mestons and prominently marked as such. I've never seen a round based Meston made from 1890 through 1892. From 1893 through 1897 the name Meston is cast in the bronze end caps. The Emerson tripods were introduced in 1896 and the end plates are marked Emerson---not Meston. They were both sold at that time, through 1897 when they dropped the Meston. Both were made with the large hanging switch on the back before they switched to porcelain. Hope this helps. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill, I came to fan collecting a little later than some of you and learning the names that collectors have put to certain fans isn't always easy. I have based this post on copies of the 1896 and 1898 Emerson catalogs which is all I have to read and look over. A friend and I have discussed exactly what a "Meston" is and have come to the same conclusion at the end of this post. I'm interested to see if you agree or not. 1896 Emerson catalog of Alternating Current Motors for Fan and Power Purposes, sent to me by Steve Cunningham in .pdf format- Page 4: Our "Old Reliable" The "Meston" Alternating Current Fan Motor, Type M1 The fan illustrated has the switch on the top of the front giving infinitely variable speeds. Page 6: "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor. No Commutator, No Brushes Page 7: "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor. Three speeds, Without Commutator or Brushes. New and Without a Rival. Its General Appearance is like our Celebrated "Meston" Motor. The fan, as illustrated, has the rear hanging switch. Page 18: General Directions for Our Small Alternating Current Motors.Special Directions for Fan Motors.---Our "Meston" Motors have speed regulators for any desired speed. For full speed, place regulator thumb screw at mark on slot in front cover; reduce speed by moving toward center. On "Emerson" Induction Motors place regulating lever so that contact is made on two studs in back cover. To cut out current entirely, throw lever to contact with the black stud---or preferably throw regular switch. 1898 Fan Motor Catalog Index: Desk Fan Motors, 1897 Model. "Emerson Electric" Induction Types EI1, EI2, FI1, FI2 "Meston" Brush and Commutator Types M.1, M.2 Desk Fan Motors, 1898 Model. "Emerson Electric" Induction Types EI1, EI2, FI1, FI2 Page 11: 1897 Model Induction Desk Fans. Eternal Appearance and General Construction.---In external appearance our 1897 models of Induction Motors will present the same general design as our "Meston" Motors, which have become known in almost every part of the world where the alternating current is used. Pages 14-17 show various 1897 style "Emerson Electric" Induction fan, no commutators, no brushes. These fans have a start position and two running speeds. Pages 18-19 show Our Old Reliable "Meston" Motor. Carbon Brushes. Tempered Copper Commutator. Best brush and commutator Motor ever made. Any speed; can be regulated to any speed with corresponding reduction in current. Pages 24-29 show "Our New....1898 Model Alternating Fan Motor" These 1898 models would be the new "tripod" as we collectors generally know them and were made, I believe, through the 1901 model year in the same Type designations. And here is my point in making this post: 1. I believe that Emerson considered their "Meston Motor" to be only the top switch, variable speed, commutator, and brush motor model with the bronze end bells. Several times the catalogs state "Our old Reliable Meston Motor". Nothing to that effect is said about the newer Induction Motors with the back switch. 2. I think the later models with bronze end bells and the hanging back switch was known by Emerson as their "Emerson Electric Induction Motor". This name would also extend to the 1897 models of which some or all do not have the bronze end bells but appear to be silver painted cast iron. The catalogs are not clear on this point. I do realize that some of the later "induction" motors may have MESTON cast into the end bells but, in spite of that, I think that Emerson still considered their Meston Motors to be only the bronze end bell commutator and brush motors with infinitely variable speeds. Up until Fanfair last year when I finally had the chance to look over a number of "Mestons" I always thought any bronze end bell Emerson was a "Meston". I have since, after carefully reading the 1896 and 1898 Emerson catalogs, changed my views on what a "Meston" is and am certain that Emerson, themselves, considered the commutator and brush model to be the only "Meston" and their statements in their catalogs seem to bear that out. What are your thoughts? Below is Geoff's Meston. No back switch- switch is on the top front of the motor giving infinitely variable speeds. This is a brush and commutator motor. Attached Image (viewed 5674 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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This is an Emerson Electric Induction fan motor, not a Meston. Switch on rear of motor giving a start and two run positions. There are no brushes nor commutator. Attached Image (viewed 5848 times): |
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Stephen Chew AFCA Member 
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 Wonderful fine Bill, hope to see it soon. SteveLast edited on Thu Jul 3rd, 2014 12:27 pm by Stephen Chew |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Steve, Keep it simple like Emerson did. Check the front of the second fan pictured and you will see Meston which it is. There are several variations as listed in the catalogs I listed above. I have all of the originals from Emerson, and didn't want to complicate things more. The incorrect cuts in some literature like the 1898 catalog (page 21 for example) don't help either. Adding to the confusion are the use of terms like "Series and Class" in the Mestons and No. (not Serial No.), and they are not sequential. There are 8 pages on Alternating Current Motors in the first (1892) catalog alone, with No.s 2001, 2002 (fans), 2005, 2006, 2015, 2016, 2020, 2021, 2025 and 2026 all pictured and described. You mentioned the M1. and the M2. but not the Series A and AA which are earlier and have higher No.s than the later FI1 and EI1 and other Mestons. In fact the 1893 catalog (which includes the ALTERNATING CURRENT REVOLVING MOTOR on page 8, and the ALTERNATING CURRENT SLOW SPEED MOTORS---with two Meston motors on page 13) is titled MESTON ALTERNATING MOTORS since that is all they made then. I'm wondering if we'll ever convince you and your friend. I'm about to give up! Last edited on Thu Jul 3rd, 2014 03:13 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Don't give up Bill. I have tried to keep things simple (in a long post) but concentrating only on what a "Meston" really is and my conclusion is what I am sticking with. To me it is very plain and simple that a Meston, as stated in two Emerson catalogs (1896 and 98) are brush and commutator motors. I can't and didn't try to explain why some Emerson Induction motors may have MESTON cast into the covers. I know the catalogs may be open to interpretation and I have done my best to look at statements in the catalogs objectively. To call a back switch Emerson made before the 1898 models a "Meston" is contradictory to what the catalogs state. I do not have access to the wonderful factory information you have Bill and, perhaps, there is some information in catalogs that I have not seen that would show me that I am wrong. I know little about Meston fans but I do know what Emerson said in their catalogs on what a "Meston" is and what an "Emerson Electric Induction" motor is and the fact that both types are separated into different Types or names with distinctly different construction and features in Emerson catalogs. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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I'll try one more time Steve. Emerson Electric Mfg Co. as all other fan companies marked what they made. Mestons are marked Meston and Emersons are marked Emerson. It can't be simpler! I think your confusion can be explained with more detail. The 1893 model brush and commutator Meston motor is described thoroughly and technically on pages 5 & 6 of the 1893 catalog. The pictures all show the top switch for the 1893 model. My 1894 catalog is mismarked and the 1895 catalogs show both the 1893 Type M.1. Meston and the 1894 Type E.I.1. Meston with the hanging switch on page 36. Still no Emerson fan was made at that time. Page 37 is interesting; "SPECIAL WORK---if you know exactly what you want, we will contract to manufacture. If your designs are not complete, we will work them up for you, and contract for manufacture as soon as perfected." Having access to the 1896 catalog you already know the new 16" Meston was introduced and pictured on page 5 (with the cage adapter I just found). The first "Emerson Electric" fans were introduced on pages 6, 7 and 8 as the E.I.1., F.I.1. and the F.I.2. All have the hanging switch as does the 1894 Meston without brushes and commutator. The 1897 catalog has both the "Emerson Electric" Induction and the "Meston" Brush and Commutator listed and pictured on pages 8 through 14. "1897 Model Induction Desk Fans.---External Appearance and General Construction.---In external appearance our 1897 models of Induction Motors will present the same general design as our "Meston" Motors, which have become known in almost every part of the world where the alternating current is used." The hanging switch is considerably smaller and lighter (cheaper?) than those used from 1894 to 1896. Also for the 1897 model "---in place of the polished bronze covers they will be finished in aluminum finish or plain bronze and polished nickel bands around the outside---". By 1898, as you know, the Meston is still listed and the 1898 model is introduced with the first porcelain switch. The switch was changed and improved each of the next few years. In 1899 the Meston was no longer listed and the bracket fans were introduced. I have never seen the elongated bracket base that was used for the tripods converted to brackets. It certainly looks attractive on page 18 of the 1899 catalog. I hope someone has one and will share it with us. The first circular bracket base was 1901. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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The basic thing I did NOT make clear is the 1894 model Mestons are not brush and commutator and DO have the large hanging switch. I can't explain more. Maybe some of the electrical engineers or "wizards" can help me there. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill, I read the 1896 Emerson catalog very carefully and found what I have posted in my post yesterday: Page 4: Our "Old Reliable" The "Meston" Alternating Current Fan Motor, Type M1 (The fan illustrated has the switch on the top of the front giving infinitely variable speeds). Page 6: "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor. No Commutator, No Brushes Page 7: "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor. Three speeds, Without Commutator or Brushes. New and Without a Rival. Its General Appearance is like our Celebrated "Meston" Motor. The fan, as illustrated, has the rear hanging switch. NOTHING is mentioned of the hanging switch models or any EI or FI Type being a "Meston" and everything I can find in the 1896 and 1898 Emerson catalogs says or indicates that the "Meston" has brushes and commutator plus variable speeds. Those features do not apply to the Emerson Induction Fan Motors types EI and FI which are the ones with the hanging switches before the 1898 model. There seems to me to be a clear separation between the Meston and the Emerson Induction fan motors. Does the Type EI come from "Emerson Induction"? If you study the catalogs carefully I don't see how one could say the hanging switch models with bronze ends are Meston motors. Those fans may be marked MESTON on the end bells but what did EMERSON refer to them as? It says in the catalogs; "'Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor" Quote from the 1896 catalog:"Our "Meston" Motors have speed regulators for any desired speed. For full speed, place regulator thumb screw at mark on slot in front cover; reduce speed by moving toward center.On "Emerson" Induction Motors place regulating lever so that contact is made on two studs in back cover. To cut out current entirely, throw lever to contact with the black stud---or preferably throw regular switch." I would love to sit down with you, your catalogs, and your Mestons and hanging switch Emersons and have a nice long discussion with you until we both saw things in the same light, whatever that might turn out to be. Last edited on Fri Jul 4th, 2014 12:20 am by Steve Stephens |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member 
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Bill Hoehn wrote: My 1894 catalog is mismarked and the 1895 catalogs show both the 1893 Type M.1. Meston and the 1894 Type E.I.1. Meston with the hanging switch on page 36. Still no Emerson fan was made at that time. Attached Image (viewed 5389 times): Last edited on Fri Jul 4th, 2014 01:20 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1894. http://books.google.com/books?id=cWJNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA851&dq=N.+M.+Garland+Meston++1894&hl=en&sa=X&ei=htK1U8XYCoieqAbbiYLYBw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=N.%20M.%20Garland%20Meston%20%201894&f=false Attached Image (viewed 5335 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1895. http://books.google.com/books?id=aTs8AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331&dq=1895+meston+fan+motors&source=bl&ots=akrcPgvtl-&sig=Wxb5C7roP0qVLWdboqpH20rPrFU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Es-1U47zLsKDqgaCxIGwAw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=1895%20meston%20fan%20motors&f=false Attached Image (viewed 5379 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill, what year are you making reference to that Emerson was not making fans? |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Russ, I was referring to 1890 to 1895 when the Emerson Electric Co. made only Meston fans. The first Emerson fan was listed in the 1896 catalog. I was referring only to Emerson branded fans. They obviously made fans from 1890 until at least 1970, my last catalog |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Hi Russ, 1891 was the introduction and production of their first fan motor. They established the business in late 90. The CF image is 95 Attached Image (viewed 5346 times): Last edited on Fri Jul 4th, 2014 02:33 am by Russ Huber |
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George Durbin AFCA Member 
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Hi Every one! I for one am totally confused... When yall get it worked out, send me one! :) geo... |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Hi Russ,Bill, Maybe this will clear up what you mean by Emerson only making Meston fans between 1890 and 1895. Do you mean that fans with the front plate marked MESTON as the fan below is a Meston Branded fan? Attached Image (viewed 5329 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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And fans such as this model with the front plate marked EMERSON AC MOTOR are the Emerson Branded fans? Though barely visible I'm pretty sure this fan front cover is marked EMERSON and not MESTON since I can just see SON and not TON in the name. As I see it both fans are branded Emerson since the motor tags on both fans is marked Emerson Elecrtric Mfg. Co. and, in general, the motor or data tags are the main identification on machinery. In my lengthy post about the differences in a Meston and Emerson Induction motor I did not take into account what name, MESTON or EMERSON was cast into the front cover. I do not have those fans at my disposal to see what they are marked. The particular name cast in the front cover does not effect what I wrote previously. Attached Image (viewed 5737 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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How about you and Bill just call all those odd looking squatted tripods Mestons. That is who designed the d amn things. Brush motor or induction, they were designed by Alex Meston. Poor Alexander Meston was 6 feet under at the age of 26 in 93 from consumption(Tuberculosis). Down the road engineers like Charles Meston and Herbert Finch started designing the fans. Attached Image (viewed 5291 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Russ Huber wrote: How about you and Bill just call all those odd looking squatted tripods Mestons. That is who designed the d amn things. Brush motor or induction, they were designed by Alex Meston.We could but I like to go with the factory's terminology which I think I have in my posts here. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Russ Huber wrote:How about you and Bill just call all those odd looking squatted tripods Mestons. That is who designed the d amn things. Brush motor or induction, they were designed by Alex Meston.We could but I like to go with the factory's terminology which I think I have in my posts here. Let me rephrase that for you: "I could, but I like to go with the factory terminology which I think I have in my posts here." Just learn how to hang loose Steveo.  Take a deep breath.....now exhale slowly...Did you know that Alexander Meston was 24 years old when he designed this fan motor! Attached Image (viewed 5204 times): Last edited on Fri Jul 4th, 2014 05:55 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Just think of all the Edison suck up fan makers. The Meston brothers had the foresight to follow alternating current and be bullheaded enough through all the BS to continue! They eventually had to make fans of various frequencies and direct current to meet their customers needs. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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"Mestons and More" should be available soon. Waiting for Mark Behrend to call and come over to get some pictures to share (proving existence to some). Should be fun with such additions as the Helvetia FAN OSCILLATOR, some Mestons, odd Westihghouse, and an Emerson chair from the year 205 according to the name plate and some people's theory which works occasionally. Will throw in a few hundred fan badges and motor nameplates. Also a resurrected Emerson DC (23066), The GEmerson and a PI 242. I'll think of more but am dependent on Mark for his expertise. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: The basic thing I did NOT make clear is the 1894 model Mestons are not brush and commutator and DO have the large hanging switch. The Electrical World, Volume 25. June 22, 1895. This is a direct quote from the June 22, 1895 Emerson Electrical World article: "Two "NEW" motors have been "brought out" by the Emerson Company- a ceiling fan for alternating current circuits, and an induction desk fan motor which has neither commutator or collector rings. http://books.google.com/books?id=I1BEAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA735&dq=Meston+alternating+current+fan+motors+1894&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Dee2U5L7F4egqAbmkYD4Bw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Meston%20alternating%20current%20fan%20motors%201894&f=false Attached Image (viewed 5019 times): Last edited on Fri Jul 4th, 2014 09:20 pm by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Well Steveo, It appears starting in 95 you could buy one of the old standard brushed Mestons, or the new Emerson induction desk fan motor. Or you could buy that silly CF. I have found nothing in the Jan-June 1894 Western Electrician, Electrical Age, or Electrical World to support the introduction of the Emerson brushless induction motor. Attached Image (viewed 2644 times): Last edited on Fri Jul 4th, 2014 09:42 pm by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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If the Electrical World information is correct, Steveo has valid ground to stand on starting in 1895 there was the old standard brushed MESTON desk fan, and the new induction EMERSON desk fan to choose from. Last edited on Fri Jul 4th, 2014 10:13 pm by Russ Huber |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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I like what you are finding Russ. Keep digging and I will keep encouraging others to understand what seems to me to be pretty clear in Emerson catalogs and Electrical World, etc. publications. Where do you suppose the designations "EI-1" came from? Maybe "Emerson Induction"? |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Where do you suppose the designations "EI-1" came from? Maybe "Emerson Induction"? Don't even go there. You would need Emerson factory documentation. If it pops up on the internet you will be one of the first to know. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: The basic thing I did NOT make clear is the 1894 model Mestons are not brush and commutator and DO have the large hanging switch. Bill, with all due respects, where are you getting this stuff from? Catalogue material? |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Yes Russ, from the original Emerson catalogs. Noticed you used the spelling Emerson did then; "catalogue". Mark just finished and promised to crop, edit and whatever else you technocrats do before posting his pictures. We did find a couple of Unique ge fan parts. I am sure Kim will appreciate the ge blade and switch we discovered. Detailed pictures of the 1894 Mestons with the large, original hanging switches (non brush and commutator) will be included!!! Last edited on Sat Jul 5th, 2014 12:35 am by Bill Hoehn |
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Mark Behrend AFCA Member
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OK, here we go, lots and lots of pics Attached Image (viewed 2544 times): |
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Mark Behrend AFCA Member
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Mark Behrend AFCA Member
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G.E Blades if you didn't know Attached Image (viewed 2383 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: The basic thing I did NOT make clear is the 1894 model Mestons are not brush and commutator and DO have the large hanging switch."Yes Russ, from the original Emerson catalogs. Noticed you used the spelling Emerson did then; "catalogue". ~ Bill Hoehn Hi Bill, we have a 95 Electrical World stating the Emerson induction desk fan motor was introduced to the market in 95. You on the other hand are stating you have catalogue material showing this induction fan motor on the market in 94? Could you please share a catalogue picture with the induction fan motor with rear lever with 94 dating please? I would be interested in the month shown with this fan if it exists. Thank you! Last edited on Sat Jul 5th, 2014 02:12 am by Russ Huber |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Detailed pictures of the 1894 Mestons with the large, original hanging switches (non brush and commutator) will be included!!!I want to thank you Bill and Mark for all the photos you posted. Sometimes the photos are needed to make a point or determine some information. Larry Reifsteck sent me the following few sentences today which I had also included on my own in my previous LONG post (15th post) on the first page of this thread but I will repost here in case you missed it before: This is as simple as it gets In the 1896 Emerson catalog on page 18 SPECIAL DIRECTIONS FOR FAN MOTORS Our Meston motors have speed regulators for any desired speed. for Full speed, The place regulator thumb screw at mark on slot in front cover ; reduce speed by moving towards center Our Emerson induction motors place regulating lever so that contacted is made on two studs in back cover. to cut out current entirely, throw lever to contact with the black stud-- or preferably throw regulator switch. They are clearly differentiating between the Meston motors and the Induction motors and state indirectly that the Meston has variable speeds and a switch lever on the front cover while their Induction motor has a switch lever on the back of the motor. This is in 1896 when both the Meston and Induction motors had been on the market for a year. The Emerson Induction motor does have "MESTON AC MOTOR" cast in the bronze front plate and I can't explain why a motor that is not a Meston would have that. A carryover casting perhaps that Emerson had not seen a need to change or a reuse of the old Meston pattern? I would say that what is written in the original Emerson catalogs as to what the front switch and the back switch models were called by Emerson takes precedence over what might have been cast on the motor housing. Again, to recap my findings; "Meston" fan motors are brush and commutator motors with infinitely variable speeds and all have a lever on the top front of the motor to adjust the speeds. If an Emerson fan motor has a back switch it is not a Meston and Emersons' catalogs clearly show that. "Emerson Induction" fan motors do not have brushes or commutator and all do have a back switch with distinct switch contacts to run at the start or high or low positions. These are not considered to be Meston motors by Emerson since Emerson states that their Meston motors are brush and commutator motors. Last edited on Sat Jul 5th, 2014 01:57 am by Steve Stephens |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, I do not share my over 58 original Emerson catalogs anymore, except to trusted friends, because of many bad experiences with museums and individuals. I also do not plan on having anyone post pictures again or sending my fans to Fan-Fair since I have found out that even with pictures and having the fans in their hands(with damage), some people do not accept reality. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Mark Behrend wrote: OK, here we go, lots and lots of pics This is the 1893 Meston with the '93 patent and top switch & I.V.S. |
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Mark Behrend AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Mark Behrend wrote:OK, here we go, lots and lots of pics Attached Image (viewed 2353 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Bill, that is a shame. The 95 Electrical World is very clear a new Emerson induction desk fan motor was placed on the market in 95. As stated in my previous post I found nothing to support an Emerson induction desk fan motor being introduced on the market in 94 through a number of the legit electrical books covering the 94 fan motor season.(Western Electrician, Electricity, Electrical age, and Electrical World.) In my world, seeing is believing. Emerson may of had the induction fan motor in the 94 catalogue in preparation for introduction for the 95 fan motor season? |
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Gary Hagan Guest 
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Im excited for the guy that snagged a meston. Could be the last one in the wild. I am dying to see it. Congrats on your find. |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member 
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Nice pictures and good information. Thanks for posting this! |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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You're welcome Jeff, it was fun. Glad I now had time to open the 1894 Meston for people that recognize and appreciate the fact that the Emerson Electric Co. did not misname their products and call a Meston an Emerson!!! |
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Kim Frank AFCA Member
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Dr. Emerson Bill, thanks for sharing. I will be the first to admit that I have absolutely no idea what was being discussed here on this thread. I know enough about Emersons to be dangerous, and even less about Mestons. The Gemerson is still the only Emerson that I would consider a truly fine fan, but I'd have to be blind to not notice that the other fans pictured run a close second or third...... |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill, this blade and hub are interesting. It is the one you got on the new 'missing link' I think that started this thread. 4 wings came to tripods for 1900 didn't they and replaced the 5 wings used on the 1898-99 models? But the Patent Appl'd For marked wing is seen on at least some (mine) 1898 tripod models. The patent was applied for Sept. 9, 1898 so it would be improbably that a Patent Appl'd For wing would adorn a blade before that date. http://www.google.com/patents/US632740?dq=632740&hl=en&sa=X&ei=blS3U6qCCM_woAT2joDgCg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA The rounded front of the hub looks a bit more domed than usual but now I see how the motor shaft may poke through the front of it. Posts 58-68 I think are of your new "Meston", is that correct? Attached Image (viewed 2332 times): Last edited on Sat Jul 5th, 2014 04:30 am by Steve Stephens |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Glad I now had time to open the 1894 Meston for people that recognize and appreciate the fact that the Emerson Electric Co. did not misname their products and call a Meston an Emerson!!!Bill you were very nice to do that; spend the time to show us the inside of your 1895 (or 1894 as you said) motor. I assume the photo below is the motor you are referring to. From the 1896 Emerson catalog Page 7: "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor. Three speeds, Without Commutator or Brushes. New and Without a Rival. Its General Appearance is like our Celebrated "Meston" Motor. The fan, as illustrated, has the rear hanging switch. What you show below is their Induction Motor with no brushes or commutator. The Meston motors have brushes and commutator so that can't be a Meston and, yes, I know the front motor plate is marked MESTON. The Emerson 1896 and 1898 catalogs differentiate between the Meston and Induction motors. They do not say to read the front of the motor to tell what motor it is. The other features (brushes, commutator or the lack thereof and the switch type) are what make a Meston or an Emerson Induction motor. Attached Image (viewed 2327 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Kim,What took you so long? I was expecting a quick reply and appreciation for your first exposure to those two views of that ge blade and the previous picture of that beautiful Emerson with the unique ge switch. Thanks also for the positive feedback. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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No reference to 1894 in this post. 1895 + http://www.afcaforum.com/forum1/20146.html |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1896 catalogue image. New would indicate now, or recent. The Electrical World, Volume 25. June 22, 1895. This is a direct quote from the June 22, 1895 Emerson Electrical World article: "Two "NEW" motors have been "brought out" by the Emerson Company- a ceiling fan for alternating current circuits, and an induction desk fan motor which has neither commutator or collector rings. Attached Image (viewed 2409 times): Last edited on Sat Jul 5th, 2014 05:52 am by Russ Huber |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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"It's General Appearance is like our Celebrated "Meston" Motor". No mention of this fan BEING a Meston Motor and nowhere in Emerson Catalogs will you see in the descriptions the name Meston in reference to their back switch "Emerson Induction" Motor. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill, as you may of noticed I sponge a wide spectrum of fan history. With all due respects to you, I could care less what kind, or how many fans you have, or fan catalogues. I have seen many a fan my fan friend. I try my best to be accurate with getting the facts right with fan history here. I then post it for the AFCA members and archives. Taking some ones word for a date like Gospel is not like viewing the actual image or document, not my style. I have no interest in your 58 Emerson catalogues. I only have interest in one page in your 94 catalogue to validate your claim the Emerson induction motor was on the market in 94 as you claim. I am known on this website for my integrity. If you would be so kind as to send me an image(email by my avatar) of this one catalogue page to validate your claim your Emerson induction motor is a 94, I promise you it will not leave this computer. Let me know please. Thank you. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, As far as defining "new" for the 1896 cut of the Meston, it is also in the 1895 catalog as mentioned several times. Even though Emerson's first catalog of 79 pages was dated 1892 (and they had regular supplements) the Meston brothers were certainly making fans and guards in 1890 before they incorporated in the fall---as you noted. A company does not normally incorporate and then start producing, but the opposite. They also state "The unparalleled sale of these motors during the season of 1891 is perhaps the best proof of their merits." 'Emerson Electric Co. A Century of Manufacturing 1890-1990' clearly states "The entrepreneurs behind Emerson---two resourceful Scottish orphans, Alexander and Charles Meston---met the first challenge by developing a stream of electrical and mechanical devices such as motors, switches, and fan guards in the late 1880s and early 1890s." I know you like having your information and resources correct. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, Just found your last post and am thrilled to see that you could "care less" about my fans and catalogs. I guess I am wrong in assuming that's what the AFCA is all about. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill, as stated, I am a member known by others here of integrity. You have made it clear you don't want your catalogue spread around. No problem, it stays with me. I am seeking but one 94 Emerson catalogue page with dating validating your claim. That claim being the Emerson induction motor with back lever was on the market in 94. I then can validate your claim based on legit ephemera. How easy is that? If your 94 Emerson ephemera in fact is accurate it will disprove the article written by the Electrical World of 94. If you chose to prove your claim....fine. If you refuse to send the catalogue picture to validate your claim.... then there is nothing to validate your claim. Last edited on Sat Jul 5th, 2014 07:15 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, What I am suggesting is that is your business what you have, not mine. Sorry if you misinterpreted my message. I am only asking you to email the 94 catalogue page as you do not want to post it and have it spread. Last edited on Sat Jul 5th, 2014 07:36 am by Russ Huber |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Steve, Posts 55 to 66 are my new fan with the Meston adapter ring used to fit the Emerson tripod cages to the Mestons, and the carrying handle made from an old clothes hanger. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill, what are your thoughts about the age of your new tripod? A back switch bronze belled motor seems too late to have a blade on it with a Patent Appl'd For (pat. applied for on Sept. 9, 1898). I suppose that the blade could have been a replacement but it's not a blade we have seen on any other Emerson I don't think. Also, after bearing with me, I hope, through my posts about the Emerson "Meston" being only those motors with brush and commutator, have your thoughts on what is a Meston changed along with mine? If not, can you tell me why? I understand about the MESTON AC MOTOR cast into the back switch bronze end bell motors but the Emerson catalogs do state that Meston Motors are brush and commutator motors. The bronze Meston castings may have resulted from the reuse/modification of the original Meston end bell pattern. Nothing is written in Emerson literature about this aspect of the bronze back switch motors but plenty is said and shown in the catalogs about Meston motors being brush and commutator. I hope you have read at least the 1896 and 1898 catalogs as thoroughly as I have and have seen the references to Mesto and Emerson Induction motors and can think this all through to reach a valid conclusion. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: My 1894 catalog is mismarked and the 1895 catalogs show both the 1893 Type M.1. Meston and the 1894 Type E.I.1. Bill, how is this catalogue that has the claimed 94 Emerson induction desk fan motor is mismarked? Sorry for the hassle, I am rather a tenacious kinda guy. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Who can you believe? Looking at another thread-http://www.afcaforum.com/forum1/15832.html about the Meston motor and the page, below, was linked to. An 1898 Electrical Age publication and they are showing the 1898 tripod named as a Meston fan motor. That's just not true. http://books.google.com/books?id=VNdDAAAAYAAJ&dq=Emerson%20Electric%20fan%20motor&pg=PA202#v=onepage&q=Emerson%20Electric%20fan%20motor&f=false Near the top of p. 204 in the from the link above it says " For the accommodation of such patrons as used their 1897 type of motor and prefer that type they will also manufacture their last year's type of motor and are prepared to furnish either style promptly on short notice" The 1898 Emerson catalog does list the 1897 model Emerson Induction fan motor along with the 'old reliable Meston" and the new "1898 Model Alternating Fan Motor". The 1898 model is shown with a 5 wing pizza blade fan. I have never seen this type of Emerson tripod with anything other than a 5 or 4 wing Parker blade. Has anyone seen one with an original 5 wing pizza blade? I know that Ron Jeter had a pizza blade fan made up. Last edited on Sun Jul 6th, 2014 09:05 am by Steve Stephens |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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'Morning Steve, Looks and feels like a good morning to stir up some more ----!. Where to start? There are so many errors in your first thread! I won't even bother to correct them. Please find the Sept. 18, '94 Emerson patent (I don't know how---and will admit it). I assume it is the induction motor replacing the brush and commutator motor replaced in 1894. I will ramble on. Every tripod that I have seen with later hole-drilled feet is assumed to be for securing them with screws, which was common practice then. As to the EI, FI, etc. confusion I have Emersons CONFIDENTIAL TECHNICAL DATA catalog NO. 87 (which was loaned to employees for $50.00 and had to be returned). This is where all of our known Index to Type literature came from. Bulletin 1462 lists FIs through FI9 and EIs through EI6 and the use of each, but since "I'm a man of integrity", I can't reveal more! On No.1994 they discuss the use of the new General Electric Company hanger for wall fans and it's use for Emerson fans. On No. 1388 dated July 1, 1912 they discuss "Meston" Fan Motors. It reads: This company is no longer prepared to supply spare parts or make repairs to "Meston" desk fans, types M-1 and M-2. None of the above types have been made during the past fifteen years,(Bill's comment---since 1896?)and all such fans have, accordingly, given all of the service which could reasonably be expected from the apparatus and must be in such condition that any repairs would only be temporary relief. (They had no idea of the future AFCA and it's ingenious members!) In other words, such motors have outlived their usefulness, and from this time on the cost of repairing will not be warranted by the service which may b expected from the motors. All parts and patterns for these old types have been discarded, and customer should be advised in every case that he will obtain more satisfactory results by procuring new apparatus of later design than by attempting to procure further service from the old types, M-1 and M-2. I'm beginning to feel as verbose as you Steve, but there is a lot more. As far as I remember no one has ever discussed another Emerson tripod listed and pictured in Catalogue No. 2110. on pages 24 & 25.It is the EMERSON RESIDENCE FAN MOTORS. TYPE E.I. 21. The details are all there and include "This motor operates at one-half the speed of the regular Desk Fan, and is extremely noiseless in operation. It does not throw as strong a blast of air as the regular motor, but gives sufficient breeze for use in residences, and is the only Alternating Fan Motor that can be comfortably used in the sick room." Wrapping this up for now I'll just mention one other thing Steve. In the 1896 catalog, which you use for details, note that every fan is a Meston, the "Old Reliable" and the "Emerson Electric" (Mfg. Co.---assumed known by everyone) Alternating Induction Fan Motor. With out exception they have the Meston end bells in bronze and the small three hole arrangement for the guard attachment---Unlike the Emersons to follow. Of course the end bells are obviously different for the top switch Meston and the hanging switch Meston. I'll wait anxiously for your response. Incidentally, just about all of the Mestons referred to in your "threads" were mine at some point in the past. |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi everyone! The old Mestons are very cool! Lottsa cast iron, copper and bronze... do keep posting pictures of these fans and history as we know it. The shops of the day could change their process or fans on the fly! So nothing surprises me when it comes to early fans. Quality control then was minimal as compared to today. A fan run production in a given year probably went through several changes within its run... JMHO Geo... |
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John Trier AFCA Member 
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What a fascinating thread, it's one of the first threads I've read from start to finish about 4 times. Bill... your knowledge and experience with Emerson's and the history that surrounds them is priceless. Along with the other historians Russ and Steve we get a picture that becomes more and more clear. My grandfather was 20 years old in 1895, all he had to do was walk over and poke around and take a few notes. Bill Fanum was over once working (without success) in getting my '93 Meston running right and not sounding like a gravel truck. I snapped a picture when he had it open. This would be the "old reliable"............ I hope the "real" contributors to this thread will continue their thoughts and experiences. Attached Image (viewed 2219 times): Last edited on Sun Jul 6th, 2014 03:42 pm by John Trier |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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This is cool. Are the leads from the poles soldered to some kind of metal plate (commutator?) that comes into contact with the rotor on the opposite side of the plate? I'm comparing this brush/commutator model to Dr. Bill's induction motor in posts 63 and 64 where it appears the leads go to their respective contact points for use with the lever. Does the motor in posts 63 and 64 go parallel when changing speeds?How about your model, John? Just curious. John Trier wrote: What a fascinating thread, it's one of the first threads I've read from start to finish about 4 times. Bill... your knowledge and experience with Emerson's and the history that surrounds them is priceless. Along with the other historians Russ and Steve we get a picture that becomes more and more clear. My grandfather was 20 years old in 1895, all he had to do was walk over and poke around and take a few notes. |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Jeff Whitfield wrote: This is cool. In a moment of despair and confusion, I no longer have this Meston. Kicking myself up one side and down the other. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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George, John and Jeff, I sincerely appreciate your positive comments and interest in the old Emersons. I have much more unknown information (to most) that I enjoy sharing with those who value the facts and don't try to change them. I'll have to hurry though, because our first great grandchild Stella arrived this week, and I hope to be able to enjoy her! That's a whole other story. Her mother was working in surgery when her "water" broke, so she called for relief, went to her car and drove to the maternity ward. She said the delivery "was easy---nothing to it"! That's not what Laverne said when Stella's grandfather was born and I can't repeat what she did say! One friend says Stella comes "from sturdy stock". Sorry that's off track. Any questions about Emersons? The company referred them to Warren and me the last couple of decades. Warren was a self-taught electrician and much more knowledgeable than I. Emerson and their successor apparently have no interest in their past. They refused my offer to give them old Emerson publications and they were nice enough to let me copy all of theirs. Some were destroyed or lost while being transferred from one plant to another. Incidentally, one of their later motor plants was in Menominee Mich. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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John Trier wrote: Along with the other historians Russ and Steve we get a picture that becomes more and more clear. Alternating current desk fan makers of that time period such as Ries & Scott, Wagner, Interior Conduit, Davis, etc. were all brushed AC motors. Scott & Janney AC desk fans stepped into the picture in 96. All I can find digging through the respected electrical books of 94 and 95 is strong evidence the Emerson Induction brushless fan motor was not on the market in 94. It is and CLEARLY stated the Emerson induction desk fan was introduced to the market in 95 through the 95 Electrical World. It was stated in an Emerson Electric biography written in 04 that Emerson was stepping forward toward AC induction motors based on the gaining popularity of 60 cycle frequency around 95. Think about it....the introduction of an Emerson brushless induction motor for the 94 fan motor season would of been like seeing Christ walk on water for the first time in 94. Yet not a peep of its existence found in the 94 Western Electrician, Electrical Age, Electricity, and Electrical world. Mr. Hoehn is not responding to my last posts, but I can suggest something to him. He suggests he does not share his catalogue material but only with close friends. Chuck Abernathy is about as close to God as it gets. If Bill would please email a copy of a clearly DATED 94 Emerson catalogue page of the Emerson induction motor ON THE MARKET with back lever that is NOT mismarked and undisturbed in any way to Chuck Abernathy. If Chuck can validate beyond a doubt by post that it is indeed displayed in the Emerson 94 catalogue for market I'll rest my case and add this to my knowledge of Emerson fans. I am not trying to give Mr. Hoehn a hard time, I simply don't base facts on someone's word of mouth. If I were Mr. Hoehn I would very eager to validate my claim with documentation! Being he does not want to post it on the forum, I have made what I feel is a very sound and confidential suggestion to validate his 94 catalogue page truly sports the Emerson brushless induction motor. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Please find the Sept. 18, '94 Emerson patent (I don't know how---and will admit it). I assume it is the induction motor replacing the brush and commutator motor replaced in 1894.Here is what I have found from the "American Fan Patents" books done in 2005 by Jim DeNoyer and Paul Pierson in addition to what I have observed stamped on some Meston motor tag photos. 491,970 Feb. 14, 1893 Meston and Emerson Induction tags http://www.google.com/patents/US491970?dq=491970&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9nS5U9L8AtKzyASIyYKADw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA D22,277 March 7, 1893 Meston and Emerson Induction http://www.google.com/patents/USD22277?dq=design+22,277&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YnW5U62LB9GiyATsqoGICg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA March 14, 1893 Meston Russ, do you have the patent number for this March 14, 1893 patent? If you can pm me I will fill in the information here. Also any other patents pertaining to the Emerson Meston or Emerson Induction fan motors? 16,561 (British Patent) 1893 Meston 5,486 (British Patent) 1893 Meston Does anyone know how to look up these two British patents? 526,083 Sept. 18, 1894 Emerson Induction tag http://www.google.com/patents/US526083?dq=526083&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hne5U6jFD82cyASho4DABw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA 605,850 June 21, 1898 http://www.google.com/patents/US605850?dq=605850&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sHe5U4DDOISbyATdlIDYCw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA 618,131 Jan. 24, 1899 http://www.google.com/patents/US618131?dq=618131&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5He5U7o70YbIBJrUgsAN&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA Photo below from Fanfair 2013. Bill, is this your Meston (commutator and brush motor)? Attached Image (viewed 2378 times): Last edited on Sun Jul 6th, 2014 08:49 pm by Steve Stephens |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Motor tag from Emerson Induction motor photographed at Fanfair 2013. This is a back switch fan motor. Attached Image (viewed 2407 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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And another motor tag from a Meston brush and commutator fan motor. Attached Image (viewed 2324 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Another Meston motor tag. Here you can see the top switch lever that is on ALL Emerson Meston fan motors. Attached Image (viewed 2393 times): Last edited on Sun Jul 6th, 2014 09:12 pm by Steve Stephens |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill Hoehn's (I think) Meston from Fanfair 2013 Attached Image (viewed 2332 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Emerson Induction fan motor with back switch was introduced in 1895. The Meston brush and commutator motor continued in production and was still shown in the 1898 Emerson catalog but the back switch model had evolved into a slightly different "1897" design which was also included in the 1898 catalog. Attached Image (viewed 2293 times): |
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David Foster AFCA Member 
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Do all Mestons specify the number of winds on the motor tag? This thread is teaching me so much. Last edited on Sun Jul 6th, 2014 07:54 pm by David Foster |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Closeup of the fan motor above. The front bell on this and believed to be all bronze case motors have cast into the front case "MESTON AC 1/8 HP MOTOR" Attached Image (viewed 2308 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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The "1897" Emerson Induction motor no longer used the bronze case and the front of the motor had cast into it "EMERSON INDUCTION MOTOR". Some of the 1896 models used a similar motor case as this fan but the "MESTON AC 1/8HP MOTOR" designation was cast into that motor front bell. Attached Image (viewed 2330 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Another Meston motor tag. Attached Image (viewed 2296 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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One more... Attached Image (viewed 2301 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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As far as I know ALL bronze end bell Emerson fan motors use this casting. I do not yet know if the Meston with the switch handle on the top front of the bell is the same casting as used with the Emerson Induction back switch fan motor but with the slot milled into the cover. If the castings are the same made from the same patterns it's very possible that Emerson was just using what they had instead of making up a new pattern to read EMERSON INDUCTION MOTOR Attached Image (viewed 2300 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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'Morning Steve, Looks and feels like a good morning to stir up some more ----!. No question Bill, we do learn more by stirring. Where to start? There are so many errors in your first thread! I won't even bother to correct them. Please, do point out my errors. How are we to learn when errors are found but not pointed out to correct? I will discuss anything about fans and will also say WHY I think the way I do or WHERE I got my information. I don't try to avoid anything and want to get it out for all to see and discuss. Please find the Sept. 18, '94 Emerson patent (I don't know how---and will admit it). I assume it is the induction motor replacing the brush and commutator motor replaced in 1894. Patent info posted in Post No. 123 above. Even I know that to "assume" can be dangerous and lead to incorrect information we all do assume at times. I have not "assumed" much in my posts here other than to think that the use of the MESTON marked front motor end bell on the back switch Emerson Induction motor is a money saving issue where the pattern for the Meston motor front end bell was used, maybe in modified form, for the new Induction Motor. Bill or anyone else, can you take a look at the front bronze motor bell on both the Meston and the back switch Emerson Induction motor that has the cast in MESTON name on the bell? Are both identical to one another but the Meston has the slot for the switch lever milled into the bell or are they noticeably different and in what way? I will ramble on. Every tripod that I have seen with later hole-drilled feet is assumed to be for securing them with screws, which was common practice then. As to the EI, FI, etc. confusion I have Emersons CONFIDENTIAL TECHNICAL DATA catalog NO. 87 (which was loaned to employees for $50.00 and had to be returned). This is where all of our known Index to Type literature came from. Bulletin 1462 lists FIs through FI9 and EIs through EI6 and the use of each, but since "I'm a man of integrity", I can't reveal more! On No.1994 they discuss the use of the new General Electric Company hanger for wall fans and it's use for Emerson fans. On No. 1388 dated July 1, 1912 they discuss "Meston" Fan Motors. It reads: This company is no longer prepared to supply spare parts or make repairs to "Meston" desk fans, types M-1 and M-2. None of the above types have been made during the past fifteen years,(Bill's comment---since 1896?)and all such fans have, accordingly, given all of the service which could reasonably be expected from the apparatus and must be in such condition that any repairs would only be temporary relief. (They had no idea of the future AFCA and it's ingenious members!) In other words, such motors have outlived their usefulness, and from this time on the cost of repairing will not be warranted by the service which may b expected from the motors. All parts and patterns for these old types have been discarded, and customer should be advised in every case that he will obtain more satisfactory results by procuring new apparatus of later design than by attempting to procure further service from the old types, M-1 and M-2. I'm beginning to feel as verbose as you Steve, but there is a lot more. I don't think we are men of few words but nothing bad about that is there? As far as I remember no one has ever discussed another Emerson tripod listed and pictured in Catalogue No. 2110. on pages 24 & 25.It is the EMERSON RESIDENCE FAN MOTORS. TYPE E.I. 21. The details are all there and include "This motor operates at one-half the speed of the regular Desk Fan, and is extremely noiseless in operation. It does not throw as strong a blast of air as the regular motor, but gives sufficient breeze for use in residences, and is the only Alternating Fan Motor that can be comfortably used in the sick room." This fan motor (half speed) sounds similar in purpose to the single speed GE pancake made in 1899 that ran much slower than their normal two speed models. I have "assumed" (thought) that the Emerson catalogs I have seen (1896 and 98) showed all models but maybe there were some specialized models made in low numbers that were not shown in the catalogs. I hope Bill that you will someday share the information you possess with the fan community and will not allow to happen to it what is happening to Bill Voigts' collection when he did not have a Will or something set up for its disposition. I know he would have wanted his collection and knowledge to remain with fan collectors in some way. Wrapping this up for now I'll just mention one other thing Steve. In the 1896 catalog, which you use for details, note that every fan is a Meston, the "Old Reliable" and the "Emerson Electric" (Mfg. Co.---assumed known by everyone) Alternating Induction Fan Motor. With out exception they have the Meston end bells in bronze and the small three hole arrangement for the guard attachment---Unlike the Emersons to follow. Of course the end bells are obviously different for the top switch Meston and the hanging switch Meston. The rear end bell is different between the Meston front switch and Induction rear switch models but is the FRONT BELL different on each motor OTHER THAN the slot milled (?) in the front for the Meston speed lever? If that slot was not milled in the cover would the cover be the one used on the back switch model? I agree that all of the 1896 cataloged models do have cast in the front bronze bell MESTON AC 1/8 HP MOTOR but do not agree that the back switch models, in spite of the name cast into the front bell, is a Meston Motor. The 1896 catalog differentiates between the Meston and the Emerson Induction fan motors on p.18 under "Special Directions for Fan Motors". I'll wait anxiously for your response. Incidentally, just about all of the Mestons referred to in your "threads" were mine at some point in the past. Last edited on Sun Jul 6th, 2014 09:38 pm by Steve Stephens |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Steve, I really admire your ability to store and retrieve data. I can not. I rely on memory and have to retrieve the physical sources, which takes me a lot of time. That is why I could never in several lifetimes correct all the errors I see on line. When I use the word assume it means I do not know---pretty obvious. I was way off assuming the Sept.18, 1894 patent was for the hanging switch model. I never knew there was a several year delay between production and the patent date being added to the motor tag. From your pictures you can see the great differences of the two Meston models under discussion. As far as verbosity is concerned, I agree. However, I didn't appreciate it this A.M. for our sermon! Sorry about you losing your friend Bill. Your involvement is similar to what mine was with Warren. Good luck! I'm covered with a Trust, Will and even a burial site and a tombstone. Thanks again for your response on the patent info. I believe all of your pictures with the exception of two are my fans. I'm afraid to go look for fear I'll lose this. Keep up the good work and remember all fans marked MESTON are MESTONS!!!!!!! |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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I have posted the information below in the blue outline but wanted you to be able to see the actual 1896 Emerson Catalog page (courtesy of Steve C.). In the outlined area is how Emerson differentiates between their "Meston" and their "Emerson Induction" fan motors. Their "Emerson Induction" fan motor does not fit Emerson's description of their Meston fan motor and, thusly, it is not a Meston. Attached Image (viewed 2346 times): |
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Gary Hagan Guest
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Somewhere overthe course of the last 4 pages of thread I have forgotten what exactly is being debated. Are you guys debating the year the last meston was made? Can someone spell it out to me? |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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My point is to prove that the Emerson Meston fan motor is the one with the front switch and is a brush and commutator motor while the Emerson Induction fan motor is not a Meston because it does not have brushes and commutator. The Emerson catalogs state that the Meston fan motor is a brush and commutator motor. |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member 
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This is the Meston missing link I'd love to find. C'mon, will somebody please post a pic or two of theirs?! A youtube video would be nice! We'd all really like to see it. Last edited on Sun Jul 6th, 2014 10:56 pm by Jim Kovar |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi David, In my limited experience I have only found winds on the top switch (I.V.S.) model Mestons |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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I have the original catalog from Emerson. It hasn't got more complicated. Just look at the front of each tripod based fan found to see if it is an Emerson or a Meston. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill Hoehn wrote: I have the original catalog from Emerson. It hasn't got more complicated. Just look at the front of each tripod based fan found to see if it is an Emerson or a Meston.I have been reading copies of original Emerson catalogs. Just look at the information printed in those catalogs and it will tell you what is a Meston and what is an Emerson Induction motor. The catalogs DO DIFFERENTIATE between the two. |
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Gary Hagan Guest
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So since the fan bill recently found has a 4 pole induction motor Steve you believe it is an emerson with leftover meston markings. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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It is an Emerson fan, not doubt. I think that Emerson made their Meston fans and bronze bell "Emerson Induction" fans using the same or similar cast bronze front bells with MESTON cast in them. Emerson says that a Meston is a brush and commutator motor and those all have the front top switch lever. That should be enough to quell any question. Get to know the fans better and not just by reading what is cast on the motor. There's a lot more to the subject than what seems obvious at first. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Steve, Most of our AFCA members are collecting fans not catalogs. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Jim, Don't be too surprised if the Revolving Meston shows up in the not too distant future! I doubt if there will be postings on it though! There are quite a few of us that like to keep a lower profile! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Bill Hoehn wrote: Please find the Sept. 18, '94 Emerson patent (I don't know how---and will admit it). I assume it is the induction motor replacing the brush and commutator motor replaced in 1894. March 14, 1893 Meston Go get em, Steveo. Attached Image (viewed 2324 times): Last edited on Sun Jul 6th, 2014 11:35 pm by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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. Attached Image (viewed 2279 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Radial commutator. Attached Image (viewed 2313 times): Last edited on Sun Jul 6th, 2014 11:37 pm by Russ Huber |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Steve, Most of our AFCA members are collecting fans not catalogs.So right Bill but catalogs are the historic documentation of the fans. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Steve, If you ever get a hanging switch Meston that you decide to sell, would you please give me the first chance to buy it? Of course I would expect to pay the going Emerson tripod price, since that is what you continue to call it!! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steveo, Alexander Meston went to his just reward late May or early June of 93 after a 7 month battle with Tuberculosis. So Alex was out of the picture for filing Emerson patents more than likely sometime before and after. |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member 
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Steve Stephens wrote: Bill Hoehn wrote:Steve, Most of our AFCA members are collecting fans not catalogs.So right Bill but catalogs are the historic documentation of the fans. And with the catalogs available to common AFCA members, they produced an induction motor fan with Meston on the bell as late as 1898. There is no way possible that they are "using up" old castings. |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Jim, Bill, I hope I am reading and interpreting the above correctly! A pic or two sent to me, would stay with me in confidence. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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94 The General Electric thanks to the AC motor patents of Elihu Thomson produced a self starting brushless AC fan motor. Westinghouse brushless induction fan motor advertised in 95. Attached Image (viewed 2278 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1894. 95 advertisement. Attached Image (viewed 2288 times): Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2014 12:22 am by Russ Huber |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: George, John and Jeff, Bill ....... In an effort to add to this thread and to try and get into the mind of you and your association with Warren, I've come up with this question...... As you examine the various Mestons/tri-pods, you are able to determine what the company did as the years went by, and you put less stock into what might be written in the electrical world or other catalogs. In other words, ..... you balance what is written with what you have handled and seen over the long years of personal study? If true, I find this to be the highest form of investigation. It's as if you had another "sense" that none of us can possibly have, one that only comes with your hands touching and your eyes seeing? Do I get the picture here? As I try and rebuild a collection, I was thrilled to buy a PI241 in fantastic condition. I always take note of the "head wire" when judging how much a fan was used, and the head wire here is perfect with no wear what so ever. The blade is perfectly balanced and correct but the cage (also perfect) has the smaller open ring in the front and not the larger one. I cannot explain why the fan is so perfect (paint/running condition/blade & matching patina on blade and cage) but the cage is.... by everyone's account is wrong. It seems as if they just put on the "new" proposed cage for next years model???? Any thoughts here would be greatly appreciated. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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All I could read about for Emerson in 94 was the old reliable brushed Meston desk fan...fact Jack. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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I did Google patent scan "INDUCTION MOTOR ST. LOUIS" for 93, 94, 95, 96 and came up with Edwin Pillsbury's AC motor patent. That is it. Charles Meston induction motor related patents pertain to late 90s CFs at best. It appears Emerson jumped on the induction motor desk fan based on the patents of another with a twist to keep the sharks off their back? Attached Image (viewed 2256 times): Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2014 12:57 am by Russ Huber |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi everyone! Until you gents get this all ironed out, and believe me I haven't had a bath in 2 days and on my 3rd bottle of red wine just giddy with anticipation over this! In the mean time if ya got any 19, 21, 27 or 29 series emmys for ya know $15 or $20 apiece. Let me know! :)= Geo... |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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John, I just finished a response to you and lost it in space. I'll try again.Thank you John. You described my relationship with Warren better than I could. A little other Warren history. We often had Emerson Co. visitors at the shop--engineers, executives, salesmen and others. They came in for repairs, information, and to borrow such things as an extra CF 28 for a pattern to possibly reproduce overseas.They (Emerson) joined the AFCA, and my wife Laverne and I represented them at several early conventions. They gave us many very nice things to have auctioned for the AFCA, like shirts, sweaters, books, mugs and balloons. Warren and I added things like the old wood Emerson shipping boxes. Warren was a very early member of the club and I joined when it was reorganized. Recently I looked at the original membership list and the THE FAN COLLECTOR'S NEWSLETTER---Vol 1, #1 By Kurt House dated Jan, Feb, Mar 1981. When I compared it with my latest directory, I found four members still listed--John Andrews, Kurt House, Sidney Lamb and David Spindor. My apologies if I missed anyone. I believe all of the original members except one were from Texas. As to your P. I. 241, I have some thoughts to share. Mine--both "stick" and "yoke" have the large ring --4 & 3/8" diameter. We had many 241s in the shop and quite a few were missing cages. Our usual fix was to grab a cage off of a worthless Century (Sorry Brad), remove the center tag and use it for a replacement. Of course they are smaller, but customers didn't know or care. I had forgotten how few early Emersons used the large ring until I looked at all of mine. One could not prove the next year model cage and I have never seen an original with that done. Maybe yours is the first and only. That certainly sounds impressive! |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Nice picture of my motor in my home. Don't know how it got in the public domain. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Nice picture of my motor in my home. Don't know how it got in the public domain. http://www.afcaforum.com/forum1/32852.html You posted on the post(below) making it public domain. Your message from that post is posted below. It would appear you did not have a problem making the pictures public domain. Hello Steve, I'll give you some history and more detail of this and the early Emersons since I just reviewed every catalog, parts lists, patent, court ruling etc. from 1892 to 1902. Some of my early blades are marked; Patent applied for, Patent pending or unmarked if probably custom made by Emerson for special friends. This fan came from the P. E. Chapman factory. He was a personal friend and camping buddy of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford and other early electrical innovators. He also invented the growler and assisted in the development of the first electrical system for automobiles. His main product, which is still being used is the Chapman winding machine on which 80% of all the worlds motors were wound at that time. In his basement, with a dirt floor, I saw a primitive Emerson motor and asked him about it. He said it was the prototype for his first machine (with a piece of bicycle chain [from the 1800s] to drive the counter). He asked if I would like to have that old thing. I graciously accepted it, restored it, and put a sterling silver tag on it to preserve the history. He got a laugh out of that. The M 1 Meston (both versions) was 6 winged. The M 2 was 5 winged. The EI 1 was 4 or 5 winged windmill early and 4 or 5 winged Parker later. The F I 1 was 4, 5 or 6 winged (windmill or Parker). The EI 2 (15") was 4 winged in corresponding types and years. The FI 2 was 4 or 5 wing normally unless you happened to be in the "inner circle"--same types and years. I didn't question Mr. chapman about it. That was the way he got it ( 6 wings). Interestingly the EI 21 16" type of 1900 was the first residential fan running at 1/2 speed and was 4 winged. Most literature lists these fans (EI 1&2 and FI 1&2) as having been produced until 1900. They were actually made and listed until 1902. The recent info about Edwin Pillsbury brought back memories of when I went to his estate sale. I think you saw his personal punching bag that I brought to the 2013 Fan Fair. No one else seemed interested, at the sale, and I ended up buying all the Century literature, history and his signed textbooks from college, etc.. Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2014 03:53 am by Russ Huber |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, Thanks for correcting me again. You are a real pro at that. I did not post the picture but certainly gave George, my friend, permission to take and use it. Their have been so many here recently I was curious to see whose picture it is. Of course you know it's Copyrighted at the moment of conception, not when the papers come through, if you want to bother. |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi Everyone! It's way to late! I have already made thousands in royalties off those photos!! Geo... |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Bill, once again with all due respects to you, I don't take pleasure in correcting anyone. I just want the information to be right to the best of my abilities. I also want to make clear I meant nothing harmful in my statement prior that I could care less about what, how many, fans or catalogues you have. You possess a very fine collection. As silly as it sounds, I just don't feel it's my business in what, or how much you have. But thanks for sharing, I know others that didn't know you want to get to know you much better now.  I too have seen some very nice early items that you may not have. I just however like some others keep a low profile in the stuff department. That is matter of choice.I love to post fan history as close to the money as I can. That is why I can be a pain at times in the midst of a post such as this. I assure you I mean no harm when I come down on something I think is not correct. If you want me to delete your Pillsbury motor image from this post I will do so. No problem. Your a man up in years doing the best that you can, and I am sure then some. Take care of yourself with an apple and a clove of garlic a day. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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George, As one sickly old man to another, I just wanted everyone to know your latest check never arrived for my percentage of the royalties. Being so decrepit, as you already know, sure has it's advantages and disadvantages, and would you please refresh my failing memory as to what our arrangement is? geMERSON Bill |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: George, Hi Bill! Let me jog your memory! The deal was... Me and Mike Mirin would take pictures in exchange for donuts and a ride in that bad a*s*s vintage Dodge of yours! It was a little rainy that day and we didn't get to ride in the Dodge. So... you still owe us a ride!!! ;) Geo... Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2014 07:29 pm by George Durbin |
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Brad Chaney Guest 
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"worthless Century" :( Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2014 06:47 pm by Brad Chaney |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: George, John and Jeff, Hi Bill! How can anyone not be positive on this forum... All the research and history about fans is amazing to me... Also it is just as amazing the lack of info on so many fans and the history behind them! When its all said and done, and "if' all our fans just disappeared poof like, Would it really matter in the long run? We would spend time doing other things. No one holds a gun to our heads and we are free to prosper and grow any way we want too! 3/4ths of the population on this world are not free to do as we do. To have so much time to collect fans and any other hobby we want to says soo much about our country! geo... Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2014 08:59 pm by George Durbin |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: Bill Hoehn wrote:George, John and Jeff, |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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For what it's worth ... a random purchase I made about a year ago seems loosely related to this thread. I have no idea what this box is supposed to do, but the endbells are cool so I bought it. Attached Image (viewed 4822 times): Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2014 08:58 pm by Jeff Whitfield |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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Whatever it is, it's a total bootleg job. Attached Image (viewed 2391 times): Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2014 08:49 pm by Jeff Whitfield |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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George, You are so right about this hobby. I just finished restoring a framed piece of crewel embroidery about 200 to 300 years old, and some early weapons 400 to 500 years old. I wonder how many people will be collecting and restoring fans several hundred years from now? |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Whatever it is Jeff, I love it!If you ever decide to part with it keep me in mind. I have tons of trading material also! |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Whatever it is Jeff, I love it! If you ever decide to part with it keep me in mind. I have tons of trading material also! Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2014 08:59 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill and Jeff, I would like to get more information about the FRONT bronze end bells used by Emerson on their Meston and bronze bell induction motors. Bill, would you be so kind as to compare the best you can with your bronze motor fans to see if the front bell, other than the slot in the top front for the Meston top switch model, is otherwise identical in size, shape, and other details? From the photos I have seen it looks like they may have come from the same pattern but with the top switch model having the slot milled into the casting. Does it look like the slot is milled or cast at the time of pouring? Jeff, I'd love to see a photo taken from the side of your Meston FRONT end bell and showing where the slot for the switch lever is or, if it's from a later back switch fan motor, the area where the slot would be on the top switch models. I have a feeling that the bronze front end bell used on both top and back switch models is the same casting from the same pattern. Thank you both. |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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Jeff Whitfield wrote: For what it's worth ... a random purchase I made about a year ago seems loosely related to this thread. I have no idea what this box is supposed to do, but the endbells are cool so I bought it. Jeff, I think your Meston end belled box may be a "home brewed" rotary spark gap used in the early (Morse code) days of amateur (ham) radio. Compare the innards of your box with the pic below. Are there similarities? Attached Image (viewed 2384 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Steve, Sorry for the delay but I had to take an old (86 years) buddy to the hospital. See, there is someone older than I. I studied several Mestons of both types :), and took the end bells off of both types :). I checked the fronts visually and with a caliper, thinking that any minute differences could be the result of different patterns and castings. No casting #s were seen. The machined and threaded areas are identical, as are the oil ports and inserts. They are open and were packed wih loose wool batting. The slot in the top switch Meston was cast and can only be determined, usually, from the inside with a palpable edge and no machine marks. You can see the obvious differences in the back end bells of both Mestons :) , with the extra holes for the switch and contacts of the hanging switch type. What is not so apparent is the necessary, different oiler position. Instead of being cast in the small bearing area, it is in the outer surface and has an additional port cast inside to reach the shaft. Hope this helps, Steve Bill P. S. The devil added the :) s !!! |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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Jim Kovar wrote: Jeff Whitfield wrote:For what it's worth ... a random purchase I made about a year ago seems loosely related to this thread. I have no idea what this box is supposed to do, but the endbells are cool so I bought it. It does look similar with that huge cog-wheel-look-alike rotor. I showed this to Rod Rogers in Harrison and he said the same thing, but I'd forgotten about it. Cool! Now there are a couple of people who think the same thing ... so possible something to it. Attached Image (viewed 2350 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Steve, I can understand why you haven't responded to my post about Meston end bells with the work you have disposing of Bill's collection. Having been in a similar situation with Warren's "stuff", (maybe 25 to 50 times as much in volume) you still have my sympathy as stated before. Reviewing my last post, and knowing how loquacious I am about fans, it dawned on me that I never directly answered your questions. The front end bells on both Mestons being discussed are identical, and the slots in the top switch model is cast, before being machined for the finishing. Last edited on Wed Jul 9th, 2014 02:14 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Thanks Bill and that pretty much answered my question. If you have the chance sometime it would be cool to see a few photos of the top switch bell from the inside showing the slot area and, also, the back switch end bell of the same area. Don't go to the trouble of taking the fans apart but, if you have them apart to admire them for any reason, a few shots would be great. My reason for asking was to see if it would have been feasible or likely for Emerson to have used the same pattern for the front end bell for top and back switch models. It looks like a good chance. Yes, Bill's stuff is turning into quite the project and I brought home more trash yesterday than fans and today may be more of the same as I try to get the fans over to just one unit in the big probability that I will have to pay storage through Auguest before getting the unit vacated. Bill had some nice fans but not of the age nor quality that Warren must have had; several shelves of Mestons and Gemersons and also more bipolars than Bill had (none). And those darn old heavy motors; I hope I find a taker for them (think I have but if anyone wants those smaller motors as used on washing machines, general purpose, etc. please ask me. They could be free for the hauling. They are mostly older ones and even one Century skeletal. |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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top: Attached Image (viewed 2247 times): |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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inside: Attached Image (viewed 2237 times): |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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oil (grease?) cup area: Attached Image (viewed 2235 times): |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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inside closeup view with oil (grease?) cup area -- bearing: Attached Image (viewed 2236 times): Last edited on Wed Jul 9th, 2014 08:10 pm by Jeff Whitfield |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Thank you Jeff. You have the start of a nice Meston fan motor and I would not be surprised if some day those parts were made into a fan. Can you see evidence on the front cover is the switch lever slot is milled into the cover after casting or some indication shows that the slot is either cast into the cover or partially cast then finished up with milling or if any marks on the INSIDE of the cover show the slot was cast or outlined to show where to mill? Trying to find out if the front and the rear switch front motor Meston castings started life EXACTLY the same for both fans and probably came from the same pattern or if there were any minor or major differences between the slotted cover and the cover used on rear switch models. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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To Anyone Interested, Because of quite a few requests in person, by phone and by "private mail"---(or whatever it is), requesting more stories about Warren Kernell, I've decided to share a few. I have enough to write a book from the last 30+ years with Warren. We first met at his shop and he was working with Gus, the owner, an electrician and possibly an Electrical Engineer. Gus had no interest in old fans or antiques and ridiculed what we enjoyed! There were antique and second-hand shops along the street with Southside Electric and I would hit them all while working in the city for the St. Louis Health Dept. The neighborhood then was not the finest (it has improved very much and Warren's building is now being restored to it's original condition and layout). One neighborhood second-hand store is now a famous restaurant frequented by Oprah Winfrey & her entourage. Our friend, the former owner and gentleman who tried to keep the street and alleys cleaned up, was worked over with a machete---he survived. Another lady antique dealer down the street was worked over with a pipe---she survived also. A third gal was not so fortunate. They found her remains in a stairwell behind a vacant building about three doors away. Other examples of the neighborhood condition, (and I did not have a concealed carry permit then), were the graffiti and broken windows. We boarded up each window as they were broken, and the police told us a different story about how the last one happened. As I remember, it was a typical hot, humid St. Louis Sunday afternoon when a guy approached one of the street girls for you know what. She told him, "no way in this heat unless you get that big fan out of Warren's front window!" That was the last of the glass. Despite this atmosphere we felt reasonably safe during regular hours---8 AM to 5 PM, Monday through Friday, but I never knew Warren to refuse to meet someone needing help after hours or on the weekend. He would even go to a known customer's home if necessary, or take them to the hospital or elsewhere. Many were sweet little elderly ladies who would reward him with a cake or other gift. Because he kept many small businesses going, they would bring us things like Kentucky Fried Chicken, donuts, and home made candy from that world famous Crown Candy Kitchen. They also remembered Warren and they gave him fans. I remember a feather vane, a lollipop, and many others. One day Warren came up to the locked gate and there in the tall grass was a Western Electric bi-polar that someone left for him. He also sold no scrap but gave it to needy people. I remember one young lady, with children, who had lost her husband and job and was trying to "make ends meet". We always slipped them a few dollars too. Some abused him and came by every, or sometimes several times a day. That's a start and I don't want to bore everyone, but if you want more, it's almost endless. As I've often said, Warren was like a brother to me. Bill |
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Mark Behrend AFCA Member
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If you were ever to write a book Bill , I will buy one! |
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Larry Hancock Guest 
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Me too. Never boring! |
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Jon Brown AFCA Member 
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Same here |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Thanks Mark, Larry and Jon. With you're encouragement more will follow. Please let me know when to stop, otherwise I'll wait for "Michelangelo time". When he was finishing (I believe) the doors to the Sistine Chapel, the time seemed excessive and when his sponsor asked when the doors would be finished, he replied, "Whenever they take them away." Bill |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Bill ......... If you have the time and desire, I think it's very important to document the stories of people we know and love. For the record. A great man I knew, who recently passed away, said that "everyone" should write a book of his life before it's too late. Last edited on Fri Jul 11th, 2014 05:07 am by John Trier |
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Dan Hilton AFCA Member
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Put me on the 'not bored' list too. Being it's so close to home and had opportunities to visit the place it makes the stories that much more interesting. Thanks Doc. Dan H. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Morning John & Dan, Turning on my computer this AM, all I could get for awhile was a warning "OFF TOPIC POSTINGS WILL BE DELETED". If this means the end of my stories about Warren , so be it! The moderator must be clairvoyant because my thoughts for the day are mine and Warren's and they are controversial. I apologize ahead of time to those who feel differently and may be offended. We were definitely part of the silent minority. More Warren, Life and Fans. Warren loved language and word usage. We spent countless hours with his huge Webster dictionary always at hand in the shop. Warren and I traded and gave each other many small electrical things (old light bulbs---some DC, Benjamin sockets, Tesla & Edison apparatus and books etc.) over the next few years . Not one penny ever exchanged hands for this. After a few years together we both knew that whatever either of us had, belonged to both of us. Because at that time, he had to make a living with his work and I had the luxury of being retired, I did our fan restorations. He trained me in the proper use of tools as complicated as the lathe and as simple as a file. Not being an electrician, he would tell me all of the electrical needs and I would make them, trusting him, whether it was a Meston or a Polar Cub. After high school, college and service overseas (Europe), Warren returned and started finding and restoring more fans. He had been collecting, tearing apart, rebuilding, improving and designing many things since childhood. With his ingenuity he made a lot of specialized tools. His father was the comptroller for Guth ELectric and he had a lot of contact with the company workers and salesmen. I have his log, of all of his finds, with entries including date, brand, type, source, price, condition, restoration, numbers ( with purple felt---his favorite color) and final gifting to many present AFCA members. That will be another post if there is interest. With my disillusionment with the medical profession, mainly because of insurance and government interference, making it no longer enjoyable, I retired. That started my long relationship with Warren and his shop. I first approached him for advice about what to do with my long accumulated group of fans. He told me all about them and aroused my interest in possible restoration. I asked if he would help and if I could come join him at the shop. He said, "No, this a one man shop!" His partner Gus had died before this. After a few more visits and a lot more questions he relented and said, "Be here at 8 AM next Monday." He had cleared off about a foot of workbench for me. I was careful to be a good student. Each day he cleared off about another foot of bench until I had the whole 8 feet or so. It obviously worked out well because we then worked together, usually three days a week, for about the next 25 years. I'm going to stop here until I see if this too OFF TOPIC to continue. Bill Last edited on Fri Jul 11th, 2014 03:44 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Larry Hancock Guest
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Bill,stories about Warren and any other fan collector are certainly ON topic. You feel free! |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi Larry! Thanks for that tip of the hat to Bill! I live in a farming community, and back in the day in the old days of farming it was common in this area of Indiana to use the 32 volt Delco Light systems. To make a long story short most of these guys are 90 years old and older! I enjoy listening to the stories they tell of these units being delivered by horse and buggy and the pranks they pulled on each other which were quite dangerous! So Bill if you can make Fan Fair, I will listen to any and all of your stories... Fire away!! geo... |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill, I hope you do continue with your wonder off topic posts about Warren and you. You are probably more ON Topic than many posts here as you are telling us about your and Warren's early history of fans, etc. I find this most interesting and enjoyable to read about. Thank you. |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Bill, I hope you do continue with your wonder off topic posts about Warren and you. You are probably more ON Topic than many posts here as you are telling us about your and Warren's early history of fans, etc. I find this most interesting and enjoyable to read about. Thank you. I completely agree and keep checking this thread for more stories. |
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Stephen Chew AFCA Member
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Thanks Bill for all your great stories and knowledge |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator 
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I agree. Keep the stories coming. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Thanks guys, Warren and Some Friends Warren was a loner in some ways. I could never talk him into going to Fan-Fair with me, or even a regional meet. In fact during the St. Louis gatherings, he would lock the doors, turn off his phone and try to avoid any contact. Even though he visited my house, as have most of the early members of the AFCA, he never invited me to his house in 25 years. I would pick him up a few times, but he always met me outside. In his shop, he was very comfortable and would drop everything to entertain friends while showing and talking fans and motors or anything else electrical. He always skipped lunch and used an antique coffee grinder to make his ever present brew. Most friends were allowed in the basement because of the toilet, but not everyone was invited upstairs and especially into his "inner sanctum" with it's treasures. There were members who stopped regularly when in town for follow up visits at Barnes Hospital and one who we could count on to visit yearly for the stockholders meeting at Emerson. One particular friend, who I shall never forget was an eccentric professor with whom Warren enjoyed experimenting. I witnessed them set up a motor which I was sure could and would not run, but it did, in either direction ---no self start---definitely a spin start! They used a car battery with leads to a pair of ball-bearings with a steel shaft in the inner race. That was it---NO stator. It ran beautifully but the bearings pitted quickly. Field? Air? Any explanations? I think we'll all remember his frequent phone response---"You're looking well today." He also could be very mischievous---from a distance. He repaired an electric trolling motor for a mutual friend of ours, and decided to use all of his almost empty spray paint cans to decorate it. Of course he had me do it so he could innocently and truthfully say he didn't do it. It broke us all up. (You had to be there!) He heard three of us talking about old time sauerkraut with sausage that another of our member's wives made, with details of how long it aged in large crocks. He had to have some and just raved about it from then on. None of us could tell him it came straight out of a can. Even I'm getting bored with this. It'd had better get more interesting, or I'll quit or be fired. |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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Hey Bill: Maybe this will refresh you some - Got this one today! Attached Image (viewed 2901 times): Last edited on Sat Jul 12th, 2014 05:58 am by Ron Jeter |
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Larry Hancock Guest
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Nice Ron!!! Homerun!!! Bill, keep them coming. If Warren can live in your memories, let it be! |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Ron, I'M REALLY JEALOUS!!! WHAT A WAY TO WAKE UP ON THIS BEAUTIFUL MORNING---RIGHT GEORGE? First, I've never been lucky enough to own a pick-up; Second, my fishing rods are practically all that old split bamboo; Third, we sure could use those baseballs here in St. Louis for practice; Fourth, also I'm envious of that chain hook and it's clever use; Fifth, I'll be studying your picture all day, after the casino of course, for more treasures; Last, You found my missing link that I've been looking for for years---the bottom switch Meston (I mean---Emerson) tripod CONGRATULATIONS---NO ONE DESERVES IT MORE THAN YOU---AND COULD YOU PLEASE SEND ME THE SERIAL NUMBER? |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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History of Warren Kernell"s earliest restored fans, identified by a folded, purple piece of felt and a number attached. Some one with an original and the ability to post pictures may wish to do so. It will be interesting to find out where they are now. I will omit the names he entered when he gifted them. If no brand is listed by me, it is THE BRAND---EMERSON! C&O = complete & original 1. type 2010 #455831 12" from Selkirk (auction house) $3.50 C&O 2. type 12666 #185038 12" osc. C&O 3. GE type A D Form B #112055 12" Goodwill $1.00 (overpriced and needed bearing) 4. Western Electric Bipolar 16" DC Gift in 1965 from..... 5. 9" Jr. 11/21/69 Salvation Army $1.00 (bad condition) 6. Specialties Mfg. Co. 12" water fan, Selkirk 11/24/65 for $12.00 "at 25 P.S.I.-- it uses about 82.5 G.P.H." 7. Menominee 8" osc. #B15226 O from gunsmith in 1951 8. Northwind 8" 44C 1966 Junk man $1.00 9. A. C. Gilbert 6" Koldair 10. Northwind 8" type 444C 11. Fitzgerald Mfg. Co. 7" Star-rite 732-SIM Salvation Army 50 cents 1966 12. B-Jr. 8" osc. $4.00 1958 13. 8" type 14644 # 165670 14. 8" type 1500 # 153029 (silver magnet wire), traded a clockmaker for a 12" GE osc. 15. GE 6" Series F 1961 I'm going to skip, what I believe to be common fans! 19. Trojan 12" type 5110 #512932 from Tabb's Elec. New Orleans 1969 $12.00 20. Robbins & Myers 16" air driven osc. THE STANDARD Selkirk 1964 21. Adams-Bagnall 12' osc. Jandus # 49320 Selkirk 7/16/69 $3.50 23. Century 12" osc. type S3 model 15 # 25851 1965 24. GE 12" osc # 619898 Selkirk $3.00 C&O last patent June 25, 01 26. Western Electric Bipolar 15" universal #G93 Salvation Army $1.50 1967 "2 Pole Series with 3 speed winding in one field coil" 28. Westinghouse 12" Style 60877 traded Junk man , last patent Dec. 26, 93 29. Trojan 12" type 5310 #527449 Selkirk $3.75 June 7, 1967 32. GE 12" 1905 type Selkirk $1.25 1965 33. Type 1500 8" # 152178 Salvation Army $2.00 1966 34. Silver Swan 10" C&O Salvation Army $1.00 1969 39. Type 12648 16" osc. # 182588 1966 41. Type 19666 # 465600 restored 1968 44. Type27666 # A31093 Gift from........in 1954. She purchased it in 1919. 47. Peerless 12" front osc. Junk man $1.00 48. Type 16046 #566356 12" DC osc. Junk man $1.00 49. Type 24066 #416771 12" DC osc. Junk man $1.00 50. Type 77046AJ 12" DC osc. Salvation Army $1.00 52. GE 12" osc. #382686 "Interesting rowing motion oscillator 1909 design" 54. Type 11644 #158056 8" Goodwill 1962 56. Menominee 8" "clamshell" #11811 Jakes Antiques $4.00 1970 57. GE 12" concealed oscillating mechanism #938942 75423 01 $5.00 1970 60. Type 1310 #450635 12" "Purchased from the Southern Scrap Iron and Metal Co. .....St. Louis $1.50 August 1972. ...... Fan was in very bad condition. I found it buried in the mud, a tire print across the face. It was badly rusted and the blade was crushed and broken. Painted New head wire repaired centrifugal switch welded blade straightened and soldered guard constructed and installed a felt covered base plate" I QUIT!!! |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill Hoehn wrote: History of Warren Kernell"s earliest restored fans, identified by a folded, purple piece of felt and a number attached. Some one with an original and the ability to post pictures may wish to do so. It will be interesting to find out where they are now. I will omit the names he entered when he gifted them.That's quite a list Bill and I wondered about the first fan on the list, the Emerson 2010, which I knew that Warren had a very nice one of and could that fan on your list but the fan I now have? That beautiful fan is sitting right here with me and was my first ebay fan purchase in March 2001. It's the nicest one I have ever seen and all original as the "C&O" says. I'd hate to tell you what I paid on ebay but I guess Warren had it for some time. It was one of the fans that Patrick Partney auctioned off and I was a brand new AFCA member and got really worried when I read about what Partrick did to Warren on a bunch of fans. Attached Image (viewed 2753 times): Last edited on Sun Jul 13th, 2014 07:09 pm by Steve Stephens |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Steve Stephens Guest
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I have not done anything to the fan other than to possibly put on a coat of Renaissance Wax. At the time this came up on ebay I had seen Rick Hill's collection of exceptionally nice brass and cast iron fans. I left his house a bit envious and realized that I did not think I could spend that kind of money for a fan and that c.1920s brass blade, steel cage would have to do for me. But I quickly got so interested in the early fans and this one looked so pristine that I went for it. The 12666 was equally nice and ended about 5 minutes before the 2010. Since I had money for only one and lost out of the 12666 (still have never had one) I quickly got to going for a manual snipe bid on the 2010 and won it. And so it goes, my collection keeps growing by bounds and leaps and, this past week, has almost doubled after the past few years acquiring not many fans. But most of Bills' fans that I just got will probably be sold in time as it's time to start paring down my lift's collection to a more manageable number. 2010 No. 455831 will probably stay with me for a long time. For those who love to over restore their fans please note how uneven the black japan is on this fan. Lumpiness gives character I think. Attached Image (viewed 2728 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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I certainly agree Steve. From the start many years ago, and possibly also because I don't have the artistic ability, I have always said I want my fans just as they came out of the factory. I cringe every time I see a fan with brass where there should be steel or any modification, whatsoever. Of course we do have to compromise on such things as head wire which today is nowhere close to the original. I have dissected and studied it with the flat wire and cotton (?) construction. Even though its tough to solder it is remarkable. This motivates me to do a separate post on it from some of the factory literature. |
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Stephen Chew AFCA Member
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What an impressive list of fans. I feel good that I have a few of those on the list. Of course, my 2010 cost more than all the fans on the list combined and then some. More great knowledge of Warren. Thank you Bill. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Speaking of original head wires Bill Voigt had shown me a NOS Emerson Jr. head wire he had and I came across it in his storage unit and now have it here. Will try to post a photo in time but no time now. I'd love to see what you have on original cords. Link to older thread about Stefan's c.1895-96 Emerson Induction motor tripod http://www.afcaforum.com/forum1/20146.html Last edited on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 12:59 am by Steve Stephens |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Found it! Emerson Technical Data--Desk fans--Oscillator--Switch Cord N0. 2022.--Date--Nov. 12, 1930. "Life of Switch Cord.When we first started investigating the possibilities of tinsel cord some five years ago, a sample cord was obtained. This was larger both in copper and in fabric covering than we could accommodate in our fan, but on the basis that the larger cord would be stiffer and more subject to breakage than a lighter and more flexible cord, it was put on our cord test machine. To date this cord has made 228,000,000 complete oscillations and is still operating. Sample cords were then obtained from the manufacturer to our specifications of somewhat lighter copper and fabric. Two of these samples were put on the cord test machine and have made 168,000,000 oscillations to date. After the cord was approved and put into production, a sample was taken at random from the first lot of production and put on the cord test machine and has now made approximately 140,000,000 complete oscillations. About a year later another cord was put on run and now has made 90,000,000 oscillations. All of the cords referred to were still in operation on Nov. 12, 1930. Eliminating the first two tests, which were on sample cords, and taking the third, which was from regular production material, the 140,000,000 oscillations are equivalent to approximately 35 years of 24 hours a day operation on a standard fan. Figuring 500 hours a year as being average operation of a fan, it would be equivalent to 580 years' life. Some cases of breakage will doubtless be reported from time to time but it is believed these will be due to peculiar conditions of the installation or an occasional defect of material, which must be expected." My examination---1996 A random cord, cut from a typical Emerson desk fan of that era, revealed the following; There are 35 strands of 0.0025" copper tinsel wire in each "bundle", and three "bundles" per conductor or 105 strands in each. Because this is a three conductor wire, there are therefore 315 strands total. Also the strands are tightly coiled (for flexibility) resulting in the finished wire having 525 feet of tinsel wire per foot of cord! The wire also contains one "filler" in the center, and a brown woven cover, enclosed in two layers of black woven cover, assumed to be cotton. I wish, but doubt, that his fine wire could be duplicated! Emerson Bill Last edited on Sun Jul 13th, 2014 11:36 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Steve, I just found out how you lose your reply when you open a picture---the hard way. After reviewing your pictures and Warren's notes, I now remember my restoring your 2010. It didn't take much, but replacing the head wire, line cord, rubber feet and leather washers under the wing nuts. I don't remember about the base and whether I recast that switch handle or did anything to the switch itself or it's cover. Enjoy, Bill Last edited on Mon Jul 14th, 2014 05:27 am by Bill Hoehn |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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MESTON TWINS OBITUARY Realizing it has been some time since the demise of the original Meston Tripod twins, and their provenance and records have been accepted by almost all of the concerned parties, may they R.I.P. I decided to proceed with the next chapter in the Meston Tripod family and hope to then continue with their descendants the Emerson Tripods. The next relative, born in 1897, was the so called banded Tripod. I named them that for the nickel bands surrounding the motor. "We will retain the black base and band, but in place of the polished bronze covers, they will be finished in aluminum finish or plain bronze----". They continued with the hanging switch of the second model Meston, but it was considerably smaller. The nameplate (still brass) was elongated and has a third rivet in the center. The rivets have smaller heads than the first two Mestons , but the tag has the same data and patents. This fan has a unique guard. "1897 Wire Guard can be used only on the 1897-type of Motors". This information is in two of my different 1897 catalogs. Somewhere in this period, and I have not been able to document where or why, Emerson switched from the different bronze end bells to aluminum finished iron ones stamped Emerson rather than Meston. Both types are known to exist. The next year,1898, saw the introduction of the New 1898 Fan Motor which we will save for the next installment, since it is so different, and then the I.V.S. Mestons and the hanging switch Mestons and Emersons are obsolete! From here on it should be less confusing, EMERSON BILL |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Since the computer will not let me edit the above, I meant cast not stamped iron end bells. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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EMERSON TRIPODS Continuing the progression of Emerson history and manufacturing with the New for 1899 tripod from memory, observation and the Emerson catalogs and other literature of that era, I have concluded the following: The Mestons and Emersons previously discussed were still sold until they no longer appear in the 1899 catalog. Those were the "Old Reliable Meston" (Brush and Commutator) with the top switch and the "New Emerson Induction Meston" with the hanging switch. 1899 saw the introduction of the Parker blade and the hollow shaft motor, which persisted in the better and higher priced Emersons from then on even in the 1970 models. The 1899 catalog No. 2008 devotes five detailed pages to describing the new fan and blade. All of the cuts show the elongated brass name plates with three rivets and the white porcelain switch without the binding post screws of the later models. The first bracket fans are also pictured with the long narrow bracket (always used with and sold separately for the tripods). I have never seen one! They recommended putting brackets in several rooms and just moving the fan. The first circular bracket base appeared in 1901. For 1900, catalog No. 2110 announces; "The twelve months just past have seen the most phenomenal advance in all values that has occurred in the history of the United States. "Iron increased 137%, copper 35%, Cotton 43% and all the raw materials for motors 64%. The switch for 1900 is improved over 1899 by using insulated binding post screws, and the first Residence Fan is introduced, the 16" E.I. 21. In 1901, catalog No. 2215 we find twelve "standard" models listed---tripods from above---plus four "Special" models. "This Special Model Desk Fan will be found to be the smallest, lightest and most efficient alternating current fan motor ever placed on the market." This year they also introduced the first fluted round base, (and bracket) swivel and trunnion fan produced by Emerson. They also made it in swivel without trunnion and the outer part of the base was plain, not fluted. These models, the P.I. 241 and P.I. 242 had aluminum name plates as did the later "Standard" model tripods. BY 1902, AND THE CATALOG No. 2320 ALL TRIPODS HAVE DISAPPEARED AND ARE NOW HISTORY! EMERSON BILL |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: EMERSON TRIPODS Thanks Bill for your insights and catalog interpretations. Can't get enough of this stuff. Very interesting that "old reliable" models were offered for sale well after new models appeared........ Does that mean dating Mestons is no longer possible with any degree of certainty? |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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John, I had never thought of it that way. You raise an interesting question and add to the confusion with the Mestons. The manufacturing started in 1891 even though the company was founded in 1890. Because the same models were made for several years, as is true in most fan models, I believe the only way to date them is through the numbers (not called serial numbers by Emerson in the early days). This is why Ron Jeters work is so valuable. My record of the first day of production of every motor and fan Emerson made does NOT go back to the Mestons. Also as far as I have been able to ascertain, they kept NO record of yearly production numbers and ending date. Of course we can date to the specific year when they list the improvements for that year in a catalog, and it is gone the next year---eg. the tripod with the first porcelain switch which was used for only one year. Last edited on Wed Jul 23rd, 2014 03:27 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Emerson established in Oct. of 90 with 24 year old Alexander Meston established as Superintendent and engineer. The Cone base brushed AC fan motor is clearly stated on the market in 91 and doing well. 25 year old Alexander Meston was a busy beaver and patents were once again filed in 92. Alexander had clearly designed the first "old reliable" for the 92 season. By August of 92 Emerson's business had outgrown its present facility and had to relocate for expansion. Improvements were made to the "old reliable" in the next few years. Alexander Meston it is stated contracted consumption(Tuberculosis) in December of 92 and fought a 7 month battle until his death in June of 93. Beyond Alexander's death who slapped together that brushless induction fan motor....Charles? I can only find books to support the induction motor model introduced to the market in 95. However, the brushed "old reliable" remained on the market despite the introduction of the brushless model. This would make complete sense as the Electrical Appliance Co.(Emerson's primary) agency had established the "old reliable" to the consumer and faith was built upon it. Emerson it is stated was compelled to move forward with the induction motor as it appears around 1895 60 hertz was becoming strongly supported in the electrical field. Last edited on Wed Jul 23rd, 2014 04:47 pm by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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All that comes to mind at the moment for brushless induction fan motors for 95 are Emerson, GE, and Westinghouse. H ell....even the intense innovative Robert Lundell(Interior Conduit) couldn't cough up a brushless AC fan motor in 95 of his own design. Gordon Scott and Elisha Ries sold out their funky design brushed AC fan motor for a 10 spot in 95. The remaining Ries & Scott fan motors sold out in Chicago and the east coast. Scott than jumped back in business teamed with Janney to produce a brushless desk fan motor it appears introduced for the 96 season. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Nice to hear from you Russ, As you know I'm not an electrical engineer, and relied on Warren to handle that aspect of our relationship. It also explains why I can't discuss the various types of motors intelligently. I rely on the "experts" to do that. For example Edwin S. Pillsbury, (founder of Century Elec.), while an engineer for Emerson, in 1896 developed Emerson's first single phase power induction motor. Is that significant to our discussion? Decades ago, I went through the St. Louis City Directories and found their locations and changes. !890=Meston Brothers Elec. 904 Olive St. !891=513-514 Elm St. 1892=1108-1110 St. Charles St. 1895=1108-1110-1112 St Charles St. Also 1895=714-716-718 St Charles St. (3rd floor) 1903= New 6 story building- 21st & Washington 1914=leased 2 top floors--where? 1917=leased more space--where? 1920=New 6 story building--adjacent to above. 1927=added 6 story building with bridge attaching. 1939=3 buildings-2 adjoining at 20th & Washington and 3rd at 20th & Lucas 1940=moved to their present location in Ferguson (a St. Louis suburb) which is still their World Headquarters. Viewing these locations, which I have done with quite a few AFCA members, is fun and especially with a stop at our world famous Crown Candy Kitchens. Glad everyone agrees on the first three Meston models, #1 round base 1891 model, #2 round base 1892 model, and #3 Top switch tripod model. We have 2 holdouts in the world on the Meston hanging switch model, but those that have them continue to enjoy them:). |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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Bill, We have discussed the 513/514 address before on the forum. If St. Louis held to "norms", these would be on opposite sides of the street and the famous photo of the 1891 round base would have been taken from the second floor of 514 across the street to 513. Is this correct? Tom |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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Tom Dreesen wrote: Bill, My theory, and I'm sticking with it!  Attached Image (viewed 2775 times): Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 12:54 am by Jim Kovar |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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Jim Kovar wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:Bill, OK, lousy memory, 513 second floor across to 514. Kovar is still full of it ... |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Tom, Didn't know about this on the forum in the past. We think alike---no other logical explanation. This is one area where St. Louis does hold to "norms". There are a lot of areas that they don't. |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Tom, Hi Bill! Tom is right! Kovar is full of it!! ;) Geo... |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Glad everyone agrees on the first three Meston models, #1 round base 1891 model, #2 round base 1892 model, and #3 Top switch tripod model. It is stated Emerson in order to remain progressive with the ever growing 60 cycle system began development on AC induction motors around 95. Edwin Pillsbury's motor counts too. 1891: Alexander Meston designs and introduces to the market Emerson's first AC cone base fan motor. The fan was 1/8th HP capable of ONLY ONE SPEED of 2500 RPM. The cone base model has strong support of only being on the market for the 91 season only. Attached Image (viewed 2556 times): Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 04:40 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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92 legit electrical books only support Alexander's NEW patented Meston fan motor. The speed of the motor was NOW ADJUSTABLE by turning a thumb screw. Attached Image (viewed 2489 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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. Attached Image (viewed 2485 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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"The 1892 pattern of the motor has many improvements over the motor as it was made last year." Attached Image (viewed 2354 times): Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 04:31 am by Russ Huber |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, You are correct on the 1891 round base Meston. It was 11 inches in diameter, and 52 volts only, and had no model # since it was the only one. The 1892 models--round base---(as in the 1892 catalog-Page 60) were: No.2001 for 52 volts, 1.8 amperes, 2200 revs; and the No. 2002 for 104 volts, .9 amperes, 2200 revs; For 1892 "They are now improved and perfected and we guarantee them in every respect." There is NO tripod in Emerson's 1892 catalog. It IS in the 1893 Catalog. Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 05:00 am by Bill Hoehn |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Shortly after Alexander's death in 93 the task of setting up agencies in Europe for the Meston fan motor was put in the hands of ............Messrs. Shippey Brothers London England. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: The 1892 models--round base---(as in the 1892 catalog-Page 60) were: Baffling. The legit electrical books beef the h ell out of the new improved Meston Tripod in 92 books.(plural) during the fan motor season. Why would they not have them on the market 92 season? Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 05:42 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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"The Electrical Appliance Co. is now exhibiting the first one of the 1892 pattern that has been received in Chicago." The above is a direct quote from the right hand May 92 article shown below. The 1892 pattern is clearly described as a variable speed Meston. Kind of sounds like the Emerson Chicago agency is clearly indicating they have something new and improved right in plain sight. What is your impression Bill? Respectively said, kind of makes one question a single speed cone based Meston in 92, catalogue supported, or not? Attached Image (viewed 2356 times): Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 08:35 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Western Electrician - Volumes 16-17 - Page 199  1895 - The Electric Appliance company is opening the spring campaign on the Meston alternating current fan motor with considerable success. A number of improvements have been made in this season's machine, which, added to the great merits the Meston has always possessed, makes a hard combination to beat.Attached Image (viewed 2513 times): Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 07:55 am by Russ Huber |
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David Foster AFCA Member
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Great sleuthing, Russ! So, as Dr. Bill has said all along, if if says Meston, that's what it is. At least that's what I got out of this. I've really enjoyed this thread! |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, Can't explain the discrepancies between Emerson's and the other literature. Nice picture of the hanging switch Meston. That knockdown guard was not offered the first few years, and is listed as the "K. D. Wire Guard, 1896 pattern."(3 screw mount), before the unique 1897 guard that fit only the 1897 fan --(8 screw mount---for the hanging switch Emerson {not Meston} with the much smaller switch handle). This guard was never soldered at the factory, the switch handle was not painted red and the base was decorated. Also the windings were not painted and the binding posts are always nickeled. Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 08:58 am by Bill Hoehn |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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David Foster wrote: So, as Dr. Bill has said all along, if if says Meston, that's what it is. At least that's what I got out of this. Bill Hoehn wrote: The 1892 models--round base---(as in the 1892 catalog-Page 60) were: No. There is strong evidence in my recent posts to support the NEW IMPROVED Emerson tripod was on the market in 92. It appears Bill's 92 Emerson catalogue material does not support this, and supports the single speed cone base for the 92 season. Bill believes the catalogues are gospel, I am finding d amning evidence through legit electrical books the catalogues may not be as gospel as some would like to think. Who said Emerson can't change their mind on their fan motor game plan after a catalogue has been issued in 92? Think about it. They may of had plans for a second season of the cone base fan motor. Alexander after the catalogue print came out with a better fan motor for increased business and sales. Emerson was not selling fan motors directly to the general public. Emerson was shipping fan motors in bulk(rail) to agencies like the Electrical Appliance Company. It would then be in the agencies hands to best market the fan motor to their and Emerson's benefit. Thus the catalogue was a plus to gain agencies for the manufacturer, but gospel it did not have to be. H ell, Westinghouse used the same d amn picture of their dual speed fan motor for years in the electrical books despite the changes made to the fan. Goldmark & Wallace made claim to manufacture Hurricane fan motors in the Electrical books. The only thing G&W did was hold a NY office and sharpen their pencils and sell fans for C. A. Eck. Eck was the one with dirt under his fingernails, not Goldmark or Wallace. Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 09:16 am by Russ Huber |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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What I find most important in all this wrangling about who did what in what year is this. Mestons were offered for the better part of a decade, and in various forms. Mestons are not Emerson tripods but made in competition with each other? Each glomming on to the new electrical innovations of the day. (all motor manufacturers pay attention to what the entire industry is doing). Patents were issued in an attempt to squeeze out the competition (Peerless spin start and Dayton spin start unable to use start windings due to patent infringements) There are variations in the evolution of the Meston which Bill uncovered to start this tread, plus the evolution of the tripod. What years all this happened is of minor importance to me and the biggest revelation I see in this thread is "the decade of the Meston" . I could buy a 1893 Meston in 1899. Now that's important. I was told once by a very experienced collector that he saw zero difference between a trojan 6 wing blade and a 6 wing blade found on a Meston. Finally ...... the golden age of fan making. 1890... Put a motor on a stick, attach a blade and we'll call it a fan. Then..... 1894-1904? Make that "motor on a stick" the most aesthetically pleasing, expensive, greatest innovation mankind can con jour up. Then.... post 1904 the industry degrades and models become cheaper due to costs or other economic pressures. You pick the antique...... typewriters, microscopes, whatever ..... they all follow this pattern. In each field, it's competition with other makers that make the greatest examples in form/beauty/function and so on. These golden ages don't last long. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Good morning Russ, I shouldn't have posted that during the night. I was barely awake with leg cramps from playing young and dropping 50 to 60 foot trees yesterday. Sorry you misinterpreted my thoughts and intentions. If there is anyone who understands the errors in published information it is I. I think it started early on when I was an editor and proofreader, and was really driven home when articles about me were barely recognizable with all the mistakes. I have found thousands of errors in fan literature and I try to ignore them and sometimes consider the source. It's obvious to me that you relish in finding other people's errors and letting them know about it. So be it. I thought about challenging you to a contest to see who could find the most errors, but I don't enjoy the negativity of that and always prefer being optimistic and teasing a lot. As one gets older, we value every second and try to make the most of it. My wife and I will be starting to get ready soon to deliver Meals on Wheels. We've done it about 20 years and love to do it because there are so many appreciative and positive people. Have a good day, Bill |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Good morning Russ, Good morning to you Bill, I assure you, I don't relish humiliating, or hurting anyone for public viewing. This is an open forum for discussion of fan related material. There have been times I may of seemingly crossed the line. My tenacity and "it is what it is" manner of going about what I do is inherited from my mother. Mother would not back down to the president of the U. S. of A. if she felt she was on firm ground with her beliefs and actions. Trust me, I know this to be fact. I mean no harm, and would be most affected if in anyway I offended someone in what would appear to be a aggressive, or malicious manner. I will on the other hand, make my point clear and stand my ground if my gut instinct is firm on the issue before me. Please be advised, this is simply a fan forum for discussion and debate....etc. I feed off the difficult fan and motor related challenges, and the skills I have developed to scan the books to get to what I feel are the facts. I try my best to use the information gained from the early Google books that are at best hard to contest. By the way, Bill, I do something wrong, or incorrect every day. I don't have to pinch myself to know I am human. Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 04:11 pm by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Bill, I simply snatched the image of the brushless induction motor from Google images from public domain. When I took the image the fine details of its construction were not my concern. Thanks none the less for your input. I just posted the image along with yet another book link article I found recently dated for 95 being there is strong support in Google books the Emerson brushless induction desk fan motor was introduced to market in 95. I did also post a portion of Emerson History dated for 03-04 indicating clearly Emerson based on the gaining popularity of the 60 hertz system was moving forward on induction motors AROUND 95. Western Electrician - Volumes 16-17 - Page 199 1895 - The Electric Appliance company is opening the spring campaign on the Meston alternating current fan motor with considerable success. A number of improvements have been made in this season's machine, which, added tothe great merits the Meston has always possessed, makes a hard combination to beat.Last edited on Thu Jul 24th, 2014 06:19 pm by Russ Huber |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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TO AFCA MEMBERS & GUESTS Off topic? No interest? Why get involved? When I last looked, we have 2595 "members" online. Guessing ages is difficult but that translates to probably between 100,000 and 130,000 years of existence. What a potential wealth of knowledge and experience. I have found, all of my life, that I can learn from everyone if I am receptive to learning. My start of this topic was to get answers and learn. I have not received one reply explaining my newfound pieces on my new Meston, despite having pictures posted and having sent the pieces to Fan Fair 2014. That is not important. What I question is why more members are not involved. Talking, one on one, to members and fan company employees that I have known for forty, fifty or more years, I find that most are anxious to share their knowledge. Why not on the forum? It isn't inability because I see their fingers flying on the latest technological marvels. In my experience it is often the most brilliant and knowledgeable who won't share their expertise. Why not? I have never seen a post from many of them. Why not? Some have volunteered answers that I will not post. We all know the members who have absolutely no interest in the manufacturers, history or anything else but restore, (correctly or incorrectly), sell and bow to the "Almighty Dollar". That's true of so many things in life. My wife, Laverne, just walked by and reminded me that most members are young, working full time and don't have the luxury of retirement and the time to spend on fans, other hobbies and online. They have my sympathy! :) Finally we wish to thank all of the wonderful members who stopped on the way to and from Fan Fair. What are the odds that two couples from the West coast would stop and honor us with their presence? (Jane and Brad Chaney & Betsy and David Foster) These are some of my random thoughts, Bill |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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I'm going to guess: Is this the Meston you sent to Fanfair?Stefan had it. Attached Image (viewed 1943 times): |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: TO AFCA MEMBERS & GUESTS There is a great deal of interest in the history and timelines of early fan products. Maybe you haven't seen the arguments over the size of switch knobs on GE pancakes or which variant came when. When it comes to Mestons, there is a scarcity of examples and those in the hands of a few. We simply don't have the knowledge base that you have at your fingertips. I for one am interested in the early Century ceiling fans http://www.afcaforum.com/view_topic.php?id=24100 I would love to be able to see your Century documentation. I am positive we can arrange to scan your documents and make them available to members as pdfs in the Information section as many members have already done with their documentation. http://www.fancollectors.org/info/refer.htm The ball is in your court. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Jeff, I did not send my new Meston to Fan Fair. I sent , with Jack Johnston, the blade and adapter ring which I've never seen before. They're also pictured earlier in this sequence. Still no one has added to it's mystery. Thinking about it, the only logical explanation I can up with is that the original owner bought it without a guard---normal---used it a lot, and a few years later decided to buy a guard. The original two guards offered with the early Mestons were complicated and relatively expensive. Whoever he went too, sold him the adapter ring so he could use the later relatively cheap guard used on the Emerson tripods. No one yet has identified the blade. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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Steve Stephens approached me about identifying the models of the Meston fans. He didn't consider the cast iron end bells Meston a Meston. To me, Meston was a trademark name, like Northwind. All models marked Meston were Mestons. Bill Samek agreed, and Steve may have reconsidered. I'd like to take part in the categorizing of the Mestons by features. I would assume the round base Meston came first in 1891.That would be model 1. In 1892, improvements were made, but it was still a round base. That would be the second model.In 1893, the base was changed to a tripod. That would be model 3. Do you all agree this is a good start? |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Steve, I agree completely, but be careful of the term model. As stated before there was no number for the 1891 Meston. For 1892 they used numbers--They were No. 2001 for the 52 volt and No. 2002 for the 104 volt. Don't mean to nitpick but the terms Type and Model were not used yet. In 1893 we first see the term 1893 Model--the first tripod Meston. More confusion is what we don't want or need :) |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: In 1892, improvements were made, but it was still a round base. That would be the second model.In 1893, the base was changed to a tripod. That would be model 3. This Jan. to June 1892 Western Electrician link posted in the following post should have Emerson Meston highlights that will eventually pop up at the bottom of the page. If you click on the highlight of your choice a page should pop up with 92 season Emerson Meston related advertisements and information for most part. The pages can be enlarged with the enlargement feature. Steve Cunningham wrote: In 1892, improvements were made, but it was still a round base. That would be the second model.In 1893, the base was changed to a tripod. That would be model 3. I am sorry Steve and Bill, I don't agree. I may be in a minority, but I don't agree. The image below dates Feb. of 92. Why would a tripod Meston be shown in Feb. of 92 when it was not introduced until 93? Why can't I find one shread of evidence in ANY of the 92 legit electrical books to support a new improved Meston fan motor with cone base? Attached Image (viewed 1902 times): Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2014 06:29 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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https://archive.org/stream/westernelectrici10chic#page/242/mode/2up/search/Meston |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Russ, Today I ran into a reference in Emerson literature which I have, to a catalog being issued in January. It seems so simple then that anything issued after the catalog release, for the next eleven months will be in the following years catalog. Right? I wish anyone of us had thought of this and brought it up before. Now I assume (I know this is a dangerous word), that your apparent conflict is resolved!!! Goodnight, Emerson Bill :) |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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. Attached Image (viewed 1867 times): Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2014 08:29 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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May 92 Attached Image (viewed 1897 times): Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2014 08:48 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Sorry Bill, trust me, I wanted to find something in all those 92 legit electrical books about your 92 catalogue improved cone base models listed above. I found NOTHING to support their existence. I will however not discount the possibility Emerson sold these improved cone base Mestons along with the 92 Tripod Meston? They must not of been to proud of them as to show an image or mention them. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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. Attached Image (viewed 1859 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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93 Attached Image (viewed 1869 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Dental approved in 92 and 93. Attached Image (viewed 1879 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, Steve And Tom, As has been said in so many variations--The simple way is usually the right way! I was hoping now you three would accept reality! Your not doing so, makes me, ALMOST, want to let you three have access to my 1892 and the other 36 Emerson catalogs that I have and you don't! But, as you described about your Mother,Russ, we Germans are noted for our persistence too---my wife says "stubbornness"! If I were to release my 1891 and 1892 cuts of the round base Meston (with the changes repeatedly described),I would be giving in to the rude, obnoxious and ridiculous demands of you three the past few weeks, especially the ones by PM and those that were quickly removed by someone! I certainly admire your (collective) ability to use the internet. I do not have that ability and admit it! Therefore my 79 page 1892 catalog, and all the rest will not be made public for now, but shared with my many fan friends as in the past! |
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Fred Berry Guest 
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Bill, I was disappointed that you could not make FF. I would have loved to have met you and talked! Great discussion here! |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Steve And Tom, I beg your pardon. I have not been rude, obnoxious, or demanding in any public or private conversation with you. You stated above: "I find that most are anxious to share their knowledge. Why not on the forum?" Even nonmenbers find our forums and freely share their catalog and ephemera finds like this Backus mailout: http://www.afcaforum.com/view_topic.php?id=33237 Your claim of wanting to share seems a bit disingenuous. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Steve And Tom, Guten Tag Herr Bill, as I stated in past post to you, "respectively" said, I have no interest in gaining access to your catalogue material. As you are well aware you have received no PMs or calls from me. You have already shared information from your 92 Emerson catalogue, and thank you. It gave me the foundation to try and locate information through multiple 92 electrical books to those two improved cone base models for 52 and 104 voltage. I am sorry, but despite a diligent effort I failed to find even a shred of evidence these cone base fans you feel so strongly about on the market for 92 existed. I may of missed something, I cannot rule this out. There are a lot of pages in those early electrical books. Thank God Google has developed a search engine for the books that I have through years gained skills to manipulate. As stated in prior post, I am human, and prone to error just like the rest of us. If I missed something in Google books that would of supported your 92 Emerson catalogue claims, I am most sincerely sorry. You have been very fortunate to have had the privilege to possess these old relics and ephemera. I hope your health permits you and your select friends to continue to enjoy them for years to come. I mean this most sincerely. Have a great day! Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2014 05:58 pm by Russ Huber |
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Thomas Peters AFCA Member
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No dog in this discussion, but wading in deep waters in spite. Russ, As of your 9:44am posting, it would be Guten Morgen. For Russ and everyone else, Instead of using such a word as model for each design change, use "version", such as 1st version, 2nd version, and so on. Model has a certain definition or say implication, that it is, or might be, something per factory origin. Obviously, Emerson did not say or use model to differentiate changes, so "version" might be a better word. Precedence for this can be found with our use of pancake, tank, toilet bowl, and other commonly used collector generated/originated phrases. Last edited on Fri Jul 25th, 2014 07:43 pm by Thomas Peters |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Thomas, Keep wading to the deeper waters and join in the fun! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Thomas Peters wrote: No dog in this discussion, but wading in deep waters in spite. Guten Tag Herr Thomas. Emerson Mestons kann ein Schmerz im Arsch sein....fact Jack.  |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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What year did the 810, 820, 710 or those models that look like GE pancakes roll out of the Emerson plants and onto the store shelves? I had a theory that Emerson produced pancake fans like GE, but moved to the centrifugal models with the "can" motors like 910, 1010, etc. I have absolutely no print material to back up the thought. It's just a guess. Emerson 810 from Fanfair 2013 in St. Louis ... belongs to Bill, I think. Attached Image (viewed 1852 times): |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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Jack Johnston, left, and Bill Hoehn at Fanfair 2013 Attached Image (viewed 1818 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Jeff, That 810 is not mine---darn It! I believe it is Jack Johnston's and I have not been able to trade him for it---yet! Speaking of GE (Oh, that hurt) "pancake" type motors by Emerson, I always think of all of the large (approximately 7 1/2" diameter) types. They do vary in thickness. Mine include the Trojan: 5110 & 5120. And the Emerson: 1120, 1220, 1310, 1320, 1321, 1520, 1610, 1620, 2020, 12666 and 14666. I believe the earliest of these would be the 1120 introduced in 1903, but I did not verify that date. |
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Fred Berry Guest
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Then I consider it "official" then, that what I always called "monster motor" Emmy's are pancake Emmy's. "Large motor" Emmy's were next. Finally, "small motor" Emmy's like 71666, 776-, etc. Two more pancake models to add to Bills list above: 2010, 11666. All were ornate motors except the 14666. Most of these are also among the heaviest desk fans. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Fred, You are so right---I missed those two last night. Now what are you going to call the other large motor ( 6 1/2 " diameter ) Emmys? Semi pancakes? Half Pancakes? Waffles? Dollar pancakes? No pancakes? Whatever you decide most of us will always know, whatever the name, those GEneric pancakes never had a chance:) Last edited on Sat Jul 26th, 2014 04:20 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Fred Berry Guest
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Bill, I like "waffles"...Or should we use that for the single bearing GE's from now on?  |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Fred, you are so right again! We definitely can not use "waffle", since it so perfectly describes the GEneric so called competitor! Last edited on Sat Jul 26th, 2014 06:41 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Thomas Peters AFCA Member
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Russ, As far as your reply in post #269, maybe they are, at times. But you soldier on, regardless, digging up, "the facts, only the facts". Your efforts and their results, are a generous favor to our hobby. Thank you. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ and Thomas, I like your succinct description and opinion of the Emersons and Mestons! I feel the same way at times! Thanks to you both! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Thomas Peters wrote: Russ, Electrical Engineer - Volume 13 - Page 467 1892 - illustration shows the 1892 model of the Meston alternating fan motor, manufactured by the Emerson Electric Mfg. Co., ... The base or stand is a graceful tripod, furnished with soft-rubber cushions, which gives a secure footing for the motor, ... The Electrical Engineer: A Weekly Review of Theoretical ... 1892 - illustration shows the 1892 model of the Meston alternating fan motor, manufactured by the Emerson Electric Mfg. Co., ... The base or stand is a graceful tripod, furnished with soft-rubber cushions, which gives a secure footing for the motor, ... American Electrician - Volume 3 - Page 128 1892 - The Meston alternating current fan motor as improved and perfected for the season of 1892 is shown in the ... The motor is furnished in polished bronze and black enamel and the tripod base is furnished with soft rubber cushions ... This fan "s manufactured by the Emerson Electric Manufacturing Company, St. Louis, Mo. Electricity, a Popular Electrical Journal ... - Volume 2 - Page 208 1892 - Some of its special features are. regulation of speed at will. self oiling bearings and carbon brushes which will last an entire season. ... The Electric Appliance Company are now exhibiting the first one of the 1892 pattern that has been received ... Attached Image (viewed 1726 times): Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2014 07:45 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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. Attached Image (viewed 1702 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Dentist testimonial from my previous post of a 92 book dated for May. Kind of hard to dispute a Meston tripod was on the market in 92. Like I said...I tried like h ell and couldn't find even a peep about an improved cone base Meston fan motor in 92. Attached Image (viewed 1915 times): Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2014 07:54 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Right around the time of Alex Meston's death in late spring/early summer of 93 it appears Emerson started shipping Meston motors to Europe. Check out the variations for the use of the Meston motor. Attached Image (viewed 1864 times): Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2014 08:12 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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. Attached Image (viewed 1862 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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From two posts up: "We may say that the novel feature of the Meston motor is that is has no wire at all on the armature, and this little motor being of the self-regulating type, with carbon revolving brushes…" Russ, I would love to see you find some mention of the 1895 Emerson Induction motor with back switch and no carbon brushes in one of the early publications that either links it to being a Meston or shows no link to the back switch being a Meston. I know that the motor has MESTON cast into the front cover but that alone does not necessarily mean that Emerson themselves considered it to be a variety of Meston motor. Most collectors seem to include the back switch version to be a Meston but I do not which is confined by the 1896 and 1898 Emerson catalogs as I outlined early in this thread. Can you find anything that confirms one view or the other? Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2014 08:49 am by Steve Stephens |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Beautiful work, Russ! I concurr with every word you have posted and could post thousands more just from the 1892 and 1893 catalogs. Of course the tripod was being manufactured, and sold in 1892, as we know from so many sources and agreed to long ago, BUT it is still first advertised by THEM in the 1893 catalogue.. It is so tempting to release my 1891 cut of the round base Meston, and the entire 1892 catalog, with the changes from 1891 of that first model. Everyone who sees both is having a good laugh about all of this. Thanks again and keep up the good work! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Beautiful work, Russ! Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Bill, I am not challenging you that your 92 catalogue sports improved cone base Mestons. Notice there is no mention of variable speed on either cone base Meston models #2001 and #2002. Is there SPECIFIC mention in your 92 catalogue of the cone base model changes, such as variable speed? What I do know is I can find NOTHING in the 92 books to support the improved cone base ever went to market in 92. I can find EVERYTHING to support the Tripod went to market in 92. Alex may of had full intention of introducing improved cone base Meston models for the 92 season. But it is my distinct IMPRESSION they never went to market. If so, this would support the strong possibility catalogues are not gospel. However, your 92 catalogue shared something Emerson may of had good intention to follow though with to market, and dismissed despite the printing and issue of the catalogue. Think about it. Last edited on Tue Jul 29th, 2014 03:56 pm by Russ Huber |
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Fred Berry Guest
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I like the Meston fan with the OSHA cage... |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Fred, Just as OSHA was forced to rescind there rule that all ceiling fans also have approved guards with a maximum 1/2 inch opening, they fouled up on the Meston close guard. With present examination I find the only part of that guard that they would approve, is the part 2 inches from the center ring, which measures 1 & 3/4 inches in diameter. From there out, including the outer edge and the entire open back, this cage therefore fails to meet the OSHA demands! How about a recall? :) |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, I feel sure all of the cone base Mestons were single speed. The 1891 cut shows "2,500 revolutions per minute." The 1892 shows both the No.2001 & 2002 as "2200 revs". I see I didn't mention the 1891 version's speed before. You're making me be more careful, with your attention to detail and minutia, which I've never found that important in fans. Medicine-yes, fans-no. "IVS" is a term I coined many years ago for Jim's first serial number survey of Emersons, to differentiate it from the hanging switch model Mestons.. The 1893 catalog has two typed pages describing the "'1893 MODEL.' EXTERNAL APPEARANCE AND GENERAL CONSTRUCTION.... OUR REGULATING AND REVERSING DEVISE is another feature only possessed by our motor, and is invaluable. The speed of the Fan can be regulated at will by shifting the regulator stud projecting through slot in front cover. The motor can also be reversed by shifting the stud to opposite side of slot. Any desired speed may be obtained, and quantity of current will be regulated accordingly. THE ARMATURE.... THE COMMUTATOR.... THE BRUSHES AND BRUSH HOLDERS.... SELF-OILING BEARINGS.... THE FAN.-We have this year made an important improvement in fans. It has hitherto been the practice to make light Fan Hubs of brass, which is easily bent out of shape, which will cause the Fan to run out of balance, making a disagreeable, jarring sound and shaking the entire motor. We make a Fan Hub of such material that it will be practically impossible to bend it out of shape or get it out of balance. We believe this improvement will be greatly appreciated." I know of no other Emerson 1892 catalog other than "our First Annual Catalogue" which I described before. Later I remember often seeing (paraphrasing)---send for our current fan catalog. Did they have one in 1892? I don't think so, but maybe. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: I know of no other Emerson 1892 catalog other than "our First Annual Catalogue" which I described before. Later I remember often seeing (paraphrasing)---send for our current fan catalog. Did they have one in 1892? I don't think so, but maybe. The Emerson Electric Mfg. Co., Manufacturers of Electric Lighting and Railway Specialties and Alternating Current Motors: Illustrated Catalogue Emerson Electric Manufacturing Company, 1892 - 78 pages http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Emerson_Electric_Mfg_Co_Manufacturer.html?id=j4CGtgAACAAJ Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2014 04:14 am by Russ Huber |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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Might this be the fastest thread to reach 10,000 hits?... Only a few hundred away. |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Sometimes I feel like I don't belong in a tread like this so I sent Bill a pm question concerning his mission link and the cage adapter ring and the blade. Also decoration found on Meston's and tripods. Bill has been wonderful in answering my questions and we swapped quite a few fan stories. Bill suggested that I post some highlights of our exchanges, and toward the end I was thinking the same thing. conclusion ....... Bill's Meston is an "old reliable" the cast cage ring was used to adapt to the current knock down cage offered in the day, but the blade is still a mystery to me. Not original to the fan, I think. Hi Bill, I am still loving this thread and your comments. Question: …….. Not posting this because I’m afraid I’ll sound like an idiot. The blade posted on #55 confuses me. Is this the blade found on the missing link you found and how does it attach to a shaft since it looks more or less like an oscillator blade to a later fan? Then ….the cast cage ring, I’ve thought of it before. Was it simply an improved way of attaching a cage to the Meston? A later Meston. No struts to spin around, no way for the cage to become distorted or twisted from use. As I see it, it locks down the cage in the proper position? Was it meant to solve a problem? Or for cost savings, a customer who wants a cage could buy the cheaper “knock down” cage as opposed to the more elaborate cage shown in #50. This would be evidence of the very first signs of a product degrading due to cost concerns. Also, I noticed that the cast cage ring holes are threaded? What does that mean? Also one more question: ……… The decoration on the base of the tripod. The earlier models have the more simple flowers painted on the base as in the 93 Meston (as mine did), but later ones have the more intricate (decal???) as shown in the 51st post. How do these decoration details fit into the dating a Meston? Is there a "93 top switch" Meston found with the later decoration? Keek up the great work. John Hello again John,Hope to stick with this now. 55 is the blade on my new Meston. The picture is poor and doesn't show the important differences. The tip is a hemisphere about 3/4 " diameter, but it is pierced by a 5/16 " hole for the Meston shaft. A standard fillister head machine screw holds it in place. The parker blade has the usual stamps of Sept.12-1899. It was obviously produced later than the fan--but for what? I checked all Emersons both AC and DC and all Trojans, and did not find this blade on anything else. Still a mystery.The cast cage ring #s 56 & 57 is apparently the first one found. The Meston cages (open & closed) had their own three screw attachment of the cast struts near the center which matches the three not threaded holes in the "adapter ring". The outer eight threaded holes are identical to the eight holes on the front of (later) Emerson tripods (to which the cage fits). When I got it, the later knock down cage was attached with the eight cage wires wrapped the same way as on the tripods (counter-clockwise instead of the more natural clockwise to help with the tightening). I explained, earlier, my theory for this. The ring appears to be cast brass, nickel plated. Why not polished? It's quite conspicuous when mounted and used.#s 50 & 51 are the same Meston front and rear. As per the decorations--a lot of thoughts. No evidence of decals or transfers. No two are identical. I assume there were several artists painting them. Even if it were just one artist, they would still vary. My Mestons, two of which have remarkable original finish have the silver painted centers, which I nick-named "partridges in a pear tree". The legs have gold dots on top getting smaller as the leg decreases in size, gold stripes on both sides of the legs, and triple gold slashes on the tip of each leg. I believe this is the usual for Mestons, and my commissioned artist made a metal template to duplicate the center "partridge----".With the Emerson tripods the center scene appears as a few growing flowers. I see a lot of varieties, but all decoration is in gold---no silver. The legs appear unchanged but the amount of decoration decreases with each year until there is none. Hope this is reasonably clear,Bill Hi Bill ...... Enjoyed all your messages today. You did clear up some confusion but still a little foggy on the blade. The knock down cage. Pictured in my tripod (link). So you could get the "old reliable" and it would come with your cast cage ring and my steal knock down cage offered in 1899 and it would fit. Am I right? I love this tread. Hope you're having fun with it. The decoration on my tripod was introduced in what year do you suppose? Best regards John I also remember a fan gathering John Witt held some 20 years ago in St. Louis. A local approached the gathering and said he had a fan in the car. John was able to acquire a great Meston with original blade and cage. At one time I had a picture of it, but no more, and now wonder what it was??? Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2014 03:03 am by John Trier |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Russ, I would love to see you find some mention of the 1895 Emerson Induction motor with back switch and no carbon brushes in one of the early publications that either links it to being a Meston or shows no link to the back switch being a Meston. I know that the motor has MESTON cast into the front cover but that alone does not necessarily mean that Emerson themselves considered it to be a variety of Meston motor. Most collectors seem to include the back switch version to be a Meston but I do not which is confined by the 1896 and 1898 Emerson catalogs as I outlined early in this thread. Can you find anything that confirms one view or the other? Read the title of the June 12, 1895 article. "MESTON MOTORS" The induction motor is mentioned in the same article entitled "Meston Motors". That is a heads up that a Meston is a Meston. Alexander Meston designed the d amn fan from a cosmetic standpoint. A Meston was a Meston, until it didn't look like a Meston anymore. If there are those that wish to pursue pinning down when Emerson made end bell changes and what exactly was embossed in them, go for it with my blessings. There are tag information details worth documenting, etc.. But......the d amn fan as far as I am concerned thanks to Alexander Meston...... is a Meston. Amen. http://books.google.com/books?id=4-dQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA550&dq=emerson+Meston+Induction+fan+motor&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L1PYU_GFFtGQyATvjYG4BQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=emerson%20Meston%20Induction%20fan%20motor&f=false Attached Image (viewed 1770 times): Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2014 06:59 am by Russ Huber |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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"The catalog shows the Emerson Induction fan motor, without commutator, and their other regular types for desk or stand..." No commutator = "Emerson Induction fan motor" The fan motor with the commutator is known to be the Meston and I would assume that it is the "other regular type". Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2014 06:04 am by Steve Stephens |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, I don't understand post 290. I hope this means you were able to find my catalog elsewhere. It surely will simplify this discussion. When Warren and I got into this and he knew I had family and lifelong friends working there he asked if I could get more early records. One of my friends, Barney Brundage, came to Emerson from Lincoln Electric along with Charles Knight, the President of Emerson at that time. Barney, an engineer, was in Emerson's think tank, and would give me serial number 1 of some of his developed and produced products. Interesting to me, Barney was a genius as was his wife Bobbie and all three of their children---all with perfect testing scores. How often does that happen? Bobbie and my wife, Laverne, were childhood friends along with their paper boy, Roger Penske, and schoolmate Paul Newman. I'm rambling, sorry! Anyway, they welcomed me graciously at the World Headquarters, and let me copy every fan record they could find. The original catalogs, which I later bought, are in many different sizes and condition. I spent many hours at Office Depot making all one sided 8 1/2 by 11 copies. Anyway, would you please explain to this simple old man what post 290 means? Thanks |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Jeff Whitfield wrote: Might this be the fastest thread to reach 10,000 hits?... Only a few hundred away. hi Jeff! I think its much more important that we get back to the patina thread, Jeff I think you will agree?? I know Steve S. does too!... ;) geo... |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, I don't understand post 290. For starters, you are not simple as you claim in your post. As far as feeling old, I have you beat today, as I had to be put under for surgery....today. But I post comfortable, or in pain. Sometimes a man has to buck up for the fan forum. .If the title of the 1892 Emerson catalogue in the book link in post 290 with its 78 pages does not match your 92 catalogue, it appears to be another 92 Emerson catalogue. The catalogue in the book link cannot be viewed, as the owner of the catalogue in Google did not allow any form of viewing. But the google book link validates it exists. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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Please keep this string going. So, for 1891, the only Meston fan produced was the conical based. In 1892 Emerson introduced the tripod base, variable speed Meston. Can we agree on this? |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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Russ Huber wrote: The Emerson Electric Mfg. Co., Manufacturers of Electric Lighting and There is an original copy of the catalog cited in the above link, at the Missouri History Museum Library and Research Center. Library and Research Center Located across from Forest Park on Skinker 225 South Skinker Blvd St. Louis, MO 63112 Phone: (314) 746-4500 Hours Tuesday thru Friday: 12:00 pm to 5:00 pm Saturday: 10:00 am to 5:00 pm Attached Image (viewed 1763 times): |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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Is it possible to make a copy? |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: Is it possible to make a copy? I would assume? If photo-copies or flat bed scanner scans aren't allowed, maybe photographs?  Wish I had known of the catalog when I was in St. Louis, just recently.  |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, I hope your surgery went well and was not serious. You are in my prayers. Live long enough and I believe 100 % of us will end up with cancer. Later today I hope to pass on part of the obituary of a good friend who wrote his own. Humorous, of course. Jim, Sorry you and Bill didn't stop in St. Louis, as planned. I was looking forward to our visit. All, That catalog is one and the same. I have spent many hours there researching the fan history and it's founders, and forgot that I have donated thousands of pages that they didn't have, to them. The staff has always been very cooperative and has always shared and received copies graciously. Steve C., Yes, I agree, but remember the new cone base models are in this catalog, and the tripod is not. The tripod first shows up in Emerson catalogs in 1893, as stated before. Last edited on Wed Jul 30th, 2014 01:46 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: Please keep this string going. So, for 1891, the only Meston fan produced was the conical based. In 1892 Emerson introduced the tripod base, variable speed Meston. Can we agree on this? Thanks for the surgery concerns. I am at this time ok, restricted, but mobile. There is no doubt the tripod was on the market in 92. The Electrical Appliance Company(Chicago Emerson Agency) boasts receiving it in their fan motor line. A dentist testimonial raves about it in a 92 dental book. Numerous 92 credible electrical books support the variable speed tripod base brushed AC Meston fan motor. Bill is adamant in his 92 catalogue the conical base Meston is shown as 2 models at 52 and 104 volts as a one speed fan capable of 2200 revs. I have found "0" evidence so far in Google electrical books to support the conical base improved Meston to have been placed on the market. This however does not conclude the improved conical base Meston never reached the market. If it is displayed in Bill's catalogue, then the fan cannot be ruled out without documentation expressing the fan was dismissed for the 92 season. Thus, the improved conical base Meston fan motors can be only expressed at this time as a possibility for the 92 fan motor season. As the Dunaway made clear years ago....."NEVER SAY NEVER". |
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Steven Gilmore Guest 
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Russ, I hope you are doing well and recover quickly. Keep up the thread as we are all interested in learning and love seeing debates. You guys are Master Debaters of Fans ;) |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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Has anyone come across production numbers for Meston during the 92, 93, 94 years. Thanks |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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Okay. We know the cone base Meston came out in two models in 1891. There were two models, so I think it was 52 and 104V. In 1892, the Tripod Meston was introduced. How many models? Wre they all 12", or did Emerson produce a 16" Meston in 1892? |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: Okay. We know the cone base Meston came out in two models in 1891. There were two models, so I think it was 52 and 104V. In 1892, the Tripod Meston was introduced. How many models? Wre they all 12", or did Emerson produce a 16" Meston in 1892? Only one Meston in 1891 with a 11" diameter blade for 52 VAC at 2500 revs. Tripod for sure in 92. Bill states he has two Emerson cone base models in his 92 catalogue for 52(model #2001) and 104 volts(model #2002), both single speed models 2200 revs. I can't find any evidence in any of the electrical books so far to prove they ever hit the market. Last edited on Thu Jul 31st, 2014 12:55 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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02 article on the development of small ac motors written by Emerson's Herbert Finch. http://books.google.com/books?id=vJRVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA342-IA2&dq=Emerson+meston+induction+fan+motor&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0EPZU5TGC4WNyAScpYHYAw&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Emerson%20meston%20induction%20fan%20motor&f=false |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, I hope you get the 1892 catalog soon. I studied it again and hadn't paid much attention to the dental motor, the sewing machine motor, the jewelers lathes, and others. These were all the IVS Meston motor which shows up as a tripod fan in 1893. Also noted on the 1/8 horse power cone base 1892 fan cuts (single speed) this note at the bottom. "Note:---We have in course of construction larger sizes, and will issue a special circular in the near future." I wonder what those are and if that circular has survived. I do not have it. Ron, No one at Emerson has ever been able to produce production numbers for any year and the old timers tell me they never kept them. That is one reason why your work is so important. The nearest thing we have is first and last serial numbers (when they used them) for the various types and can estimate numbers produced based on the years of production. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bottom Sept. 91 Emerson article under BUSINESS in the book link. Alexander was already working on variable speed with sewing machine motors. Notice in the article of 91 they are so busy they have an order from Panama. http://books.google.com/books?id=8Mk1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=Meston+sewing+++1891&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AJLZU-zLFpKzyATz-oAg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Meston%20sewing%20%20%201891&f=false Last edited on Thu Jul 31st, 2014 04:04 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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With variable speed Meston dental and sewing machine motors being worked on and improved in the fall of 91, why follow through with placing on the market for 92 single speed cone base fan motors? |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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It's my guess The IVS Tripod worked out very well, and it replaced the conical base. But Emerson kept the 91 model in the catalog to sell the inventory. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Thanks Steve, Makes perfect sense to me! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: But Emerson kept the 91 model in the catalog to sell the inventory. One problem with that. The cone based Mestons in Bill's 92 catalogue were offered in two IMPROVED single speed models. Emerson was on to the variable speed Meston motor prior to the end of the 91 season. My impression is Emerson dropped the improved single speed cone base Meston fan motors(#2001 and 2002) prior to production. The Tripod offered much more for strong sales for the 92 season. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, The '91 and '92 cuts I have are identical in appearance, and they are back views. I've never seen a detailed other view. Have you? Never having seen one I have no idea of the tag placement or contents. Do you or anyone else? Probably no Emerson Electric on them. They may be one and the same, except for the internals---windings? I'm still planning on finding the first one! Ever optimistic! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, The 91 model was 52 volts at 2500 revs. They may of shared a similar appearance, but the 91 model did not share the same characteristics as the 92 models you posted from your 92 catalogue, other than being only a single speed model, and the 91 sharing 52 VAC with one of the 92 models. So, either Emerson made the IMPROVED cones bases for the 92 season in your 92 catalogue, or, they did not make them. Being there is nothing to support the IMPROVED cone base existence for the 92 season in the electrical books, there is a high probability Emerson never manufactured them. As stated previously, the Tripod had much more to offer for the 92 season. Last edited on Thu Jul 31st, 2014 07:39 am by Russ Huber |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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My conclusions, for now, are at least three versions of the cone base Meston were made in 1890, '91 and '92. The IVS Meston tripod was made from 1892 until 1898. The hanging switch Meston was made from 1894 until 1898, and the nickel banded tripods were made in 1897 only. They were all replaced in 1899 by the Emerson tripod with the porcelain switches. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Emerson Electric was established in October of 90. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Correct, with only the one product produced before incorporation---the cone base Meston. Makes the factory photo with only one product and so few employees even more significant (post 228). Quite a risk, wasn't it? Last edited on Fri Aug 1st, 2014 12:58 am by Bill Hoehn |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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"Fan related from post 304" Excerpts from my friend Bob's obituary that he wrote himself. "Bob was born on September 13, 1921 on his mother's family farm one mile from Willard, Georgia which is an insignificant little place now dried up and blown away..... He served without distinction, in the US Marine Corps from May 1941 to February 1946..... He was happily married four times and has fairly well balanced and productive children..... He is survived by his longtime friend..... He lived a uniquely happy and satisfying life but never did learn to putt very well....." Even serious fan collectors should relax once in a while, and enjoy life like Bob most certainly did. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Correct, with only the one product produced before incorporation---the cone base Meston. In 1891. Emerson established late in 90 during the motor manufacture season. Being they just established in Oct. of 90 makes one wonder how much product they were able to manufacture prior to start of the fan motor manufacture season early 91? Attached Image (viewed 1743 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: No commutator = "Emerson Induction fan motor" Attached Image (viewed 1718 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Emerson Electric had no such thing as a "fan motor manufacture season". It was there only product then and fans were manufactured year around, as is noted repeatedly in their literature. I have no idea how long it took to get to the various trade magazines. I have quite a few but don't have the interest or inclination to waste my time on them. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: My conclusions, for now, are at least three versions of the cone base Meston were made in 1890, '91 and '92. The hanging switch Meston was made from 1894 until 1898. Attached Image (viewed 1721 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, So that I'm not misconstrued, I also don't waste time on golf, tennis, swimming and many other things that different people enjoy. At my age I can't find enough hours to do what I do enjoy, like fan acquisition and restoration, car and motorcycle restoration and shows, and myriads of other hobbies. I don't think I'll ever find time to go through all of the original data from the founders, owners and engineers of Emerson, Century, Wagner, Acme, Bradford, Knapp-Monarch and others that I've acquired. Just their college textbooks with personal notes, company communications and personal letters is overwhelming. Skofield's requesting help from Emerson for his book and the copy of same that he sent Emerson is an example. It's endless, and that is why I don't read the trade journals. It's wonderful that you do, and share with others. Reminds me of something that Paul Newman said (paraphrasing) about why he didn't fool around with other women. Why would I settle for hamburger when I have steak at home? Last edited on Fri Aug 1st, 2014 11:36 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill, you ,as well as I, are allowed to conclude our beliefs as to the historic trail the Emerson factory paved from 1890 forward. I respect you and your knowledge, and much of what you have shared. However, I don't agree with all of your conclusions, as you yourself don't agree with all of mine. The good part is no crimes against humanity have been committed by either you or I in what conclusions we have faith in. You stand with sword in hand on your catalogue material being gospel. Cool.I have found the Emerson 91 Meston motor used with blade, sewing, and dental purpose in the trade journals as you refer to them. I have found mention of the Meston tripod with variable speed in numerous books for the 92 season. Yet, by your own admission you state your 92 catalogue does note even display the Emerson variable Tripod Meston. You stand by the two single speed improved cone base Mestons #2001 and #2002 rated at 52 and 104 VAC in your 92 Emerson catalogue. I have mentioned more than once in post I can't find ANYTHING to support those two improved cone base Mestons on the market in ANY of the 92 electrical books. You conclude the Emerson induction desk fan introduced in 94. I have on the other hand produced electrical books that would support a 95 introduction of the induction desk fan motor. Based on the above information, how can you come to a conclusion on the introduction of these fan motors based simply on an Emerson Catalogue material, when there is no clear evidence in hand, or for that matter support from the numerous trade and electrical books? I admit I can't conclude the 92 introduction of the two improved cone base Meston fan motors , or for that matter conclude the 94 introduction of the first Emerson induction desk fan. But I have found no evidence to NOT support the 92 improved cone base Emersons for the 92 season, and evidence to support the introduction of the first Emerson induction desk fan in 1895. Eck(in the early years of hand assembly) made fan motors, dynamos, and motors. Fan motors were manufactured most typically starting around Jan. + or - into the summer/early fall. Dynamo and motor manufacture was most typically done starting late fall into the winter months. If you give thought to this it makes complete sense when these early 90s manufactures were building these machines like Mercedes to meet the agencies demands. Maybe Emerson built their fan,sewing, and dental motors all in the same day?? Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 01:15 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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BTW....in 92 The long term Chicago Emerson agency the Electrical Appliance Company reported filling orders for the Meston fan motor from Oregon, Maine, and Florida....fact Jack. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Russ, Interesting that you keep bringing up the phrase "catalog material being gospel" for me when I have repeatedly said the opposite. I have even pointed out specific errors in Emerson's catalogs, as I'm sure are in every other human's work, including all of your sources. I'm at present reviewing my video from 1990 of the first AFCA convention, interviews with Warren Kernell, Ron Fanta, Johnny Henard, and presentations by Kurt House, Jack Johnston, Dan Leach, Phil Frey, Mike Breedlove, Mike Coup, Monty Young, Rick Henry and many others. Sadly some of these terrific people and pioneers in our association are no longer with us. Not name dropping, but want you to know that I have numerous sources besides the Emerson catalogs that you so distrust and try to minimize. I hesitated for several reasons to offer this video to April Welch for Fan Fair 2015, but when I called suggesting this, she enthusiastically accepted. Oh, to be young again. Many details that we have discussed, are pictured and discussed by many old-timers. I do not plan on being there, but I hope it will be as successful, fun and educational as the first convention was. If it is, I may continue with successive years. I apologize for rambling on again---must be part of aging:) |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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The boys got together for a pow wow on the 17th of Sept. of 90 and established on the 24th of Sept. of 90 at $50,000 capital. Check it out at the bottom of the page. Keep in mind Menominee Mechanical Electric Company incorporated in 92 at $20,000 capital. Attached Image (viewed 1652 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Feb. 11, 91 Attached Image (viewed 1666 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 05:55 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Mar. 18, 91 Attached Image (viewed 1637 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 05:57 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Jan. 14, 91 Attached Image (viewed 1658 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 06:15 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Dec. 26, 91 Attached Image (viewed 1647 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 06:51 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Fan motor manufacture season...early spring until late summer/early fall. Notice the fans have been reduced to half price to move them out of inventory in the August ad. Attached Image (viewed 1655 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 09:32 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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August 91. Attached Image (viewed 1647 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Fall into winter is time to kick in for utility motor manufacture, sewing , dental drill and lathe motors, Attached Image (viewed 1635 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 07:01 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Emerson was novelties as well. Attached Image (viewed 1650 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Alexander Meston was already establishing variable speed control on the sewing and dental related motors in the fall and winter of 91. Thus the introduction of a variable speed fan motor in 92 with new design makes for a successful fan motor season. I was unable to pick up on any Emerson product on the market in 90 in the books so far. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Hi Russ, Bill, I don't attempt to minimize your catalogues. I am not disrespecting you. I am just running into to many respected Google early electrical books that don't support a few of your claims. Primarily your claims from your 92 Emerson catalogue regarding the improved cone base fans. and the introduction year of the Emerson induction desk fan. Rather than talk about your numerous sources aside from your catalogues, how about visual legit documents to validate and conclude your claims. If you can't comply, in my opinion there is no conclusion to your claims. seeing is believing. Have a great day! Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 09:00 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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First patent from Alexander and Charles Meston filed Jan. 12, 1891 after the Sept. 24, 90 incorporation of Emerson Electric. Attached Image (viewed 1628 times): |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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OK.....Question and thought from the cheap seats. Is there an example found of a conical based Meston? Was it ever produced? I'm certain that it was but I cite the Nickerson typewriter. Line drawings and catalogs exist, but documentation was found that it was never produced. They made one example and quit and it exists in a museum in Milwaukee. The cool line drawings of the 2 Victor fans? Neither one has ever turned up and I wonder if they were ever produced. The DC Tesla........ ever produced? No examples exist. Edit: Just found a factory picture of the conical based Meston (four blade) and a statement by Steve Cunningham that no cone based Mestons have been found. But the patent drawings show a 6 pole motor. The more I read the more confused I get. I think it would be cool in this thread for someone to stitch together known examples of Mestons and/or tripods showing their evolution during the 1890's. Bill's missing link (old reliable or a some version produced in the northern half of the decade of the 90's) would fit in there somehow. I'm sure a fan fair Emerson time line has been displayed on a table, but for those of us who have trouble leaving home, I'd love to see a timeline/evolution photo display with a paragraph showing and explaining how the Meston evolved. How many different significant variations of Mestons showing how the company made changes are known to exist. Is there an original million wire cage that's been found or only reproductions? Bill's is a 4 pole motor? and I wonder if that's ever turned up before? A Meston with a blade only having 4 wings? That's kinda weird, isn't it? And a huge discovery!!!! All this catalog stuff is fascinating but surviving examples ...... especially Bill's missing link is the most important discovery of how the Meston was produced during the Meston era. And a request...... Especially Russ. When posting a google book page or drawing tell us what we are supposed to be seeing by looking at it. I gloss over some of these because I don't have a clue what you are posting. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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John Trier wrote: And a request...... Especially Russ. When posting a google book page or drawing tell us what we are supposed to be seeing by looking at it. I gloss over some of these because I don't have a clue what you are posting.I have the same feelings and would appreciate just a few words on what you are trying to show or point out. Also a link to posted snips of pages so we might see more of the book or article. Thanks for all you have done in the historical department Russ. John, remember that a "Meston Motor" is a commutator and brush motor. Without those two parts it is not a Meston Motor unless you choose to consider the Emerson Induction Motor to be a Meston if it used the Meston Motor casting as some seem to want to do. Emerson was pretty clear that the Meston had a commutator and brushes and was of a variable speed. I don't see much in the way of different versions of the Meston which was made from 1892-97 according to one source but was also offered in the 1898 Emerson catalog. The "Emerson Induction Fan Motor" (back switch, and bronze case at first) was made from 1895-97 along with the Meston commutator motor. Last edited on Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 06:03 pm by Steve Stephens |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: John Trier wrote:And a request...... Especially Russ. When posting a google book page or drawing tell us what we are supposed to be seeing by looking at it. I gloss over some of these because I don't have a clue what you are posting.I have the same feelings and would appreciate just a few words on what you are trying to show or point out. Also a link to posted snips of pages so we might see more of the book or article. Thanks for all you have done in the historical department Russ. Oh boy........ Hanging switch Meston, Conical base Meston, top variable speed switch Meston, Bill's missing link 4 pole Meston. Meston's with the big cage, knock down cage, cage adapter ring. Meston's introduced as an induction motor and brush and commutator? When it says "Meston" on the back of the motor, it's a Meston right? Was the hanging switch Meston induction or brush and commutator? |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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John Trier wrote: Oh boy........ Hanging switch Meston, Conical base Meston, top variable speed switch Meston, Bill's missing link 4 pole Meston. Meston's with the big cage, knock down cage, cage adapter ring. Meston's introduced as an induction motor and brush and commutator? When it says "Meston" on the back of the motor, it's a Meston right? Was the hanging switch Meston induction or brush and commutator?Emerson states in several of their catalogs during the time the Meston was being sold that a Meston silk, by Emerson's own definition, a commutator and brush motor. That precludes the back switch (hanging switch) Induction Fan Motors (Emerson's term) from being a Meston. Yes, many of the rear switch Induction Fan Motors do have MESTON MOTOR cast into the FRONT motor housing and I suspect that Emerson continued using the Meston motor front casting pattern to make cases for the earlier Induction Fan Motors. It comes down to what EMERSON considered a Meston to be and whether or not their Induction Fan Motor was a Meston or not. My investigation says that Mestons are ONLY the fan motors with brush and commutator. I went through all this early in this thread including why a Meston is the commutator and brush motor and why the Emerson Induction Motor is not a Meston. Many here seem to believe that any Emerson that has MESTON cast in the front cover is a Meston. I say "not so" and give my reasons early in this thread. Of the existing Mestons I have seen (top switch models only) I see no differences other than the motor tags and the various cages that were eventually included with the fan motor. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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John Trier wrote: And a request...... Especially Russ. When posting a google book page or drawing tell us what we are supposed to be seeing by looking at it. I gloss over some of these because I don't have a clue what you are posting. Posts 334-344 all reference Emerson product manufactured through the 91 season. Emerson was making more than fan motors through the 91 season. I sent you a PM if you want to gain a better understanding. It would be a lot easier to talk to you over the phone one on one to help you understand rather than write a novel here explaining things. This would more than likely end up in more confusion. The call costs me nothing additional, so feel free to take advantage of it. |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi Every one! Back in the day of these fans the factories in their infancy had very small productions and they could change on the fly... Also communcation was generally snail mail and telegraph. By the time mail arrived to electrical magazines, patent offices and catalogs I venture to say the fans had many changes done to them and WAS changed before the ink dried in the catalogs and all these publications... That is how things happened in those days... JMHO... I doubt I will ever own any of these fans but the reading is good and I think what I wrote in the previous paragraph is pretty close to what happened in those days... geo... |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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For John Trier: What your are about to read below is word for word from page 735 of the Electrical World dated June 22, 1895. "Strong Guarantees are made by the Emerson Electric Manufacturing Company of St. Louis, Mo., in its new catalogue of fan motors. The company assumes all responsibility for repairs not due to carelessness or accident which may become necessary within three months of date of sale of a motor. Two new motors have been brought out this year by the Emerson Company-a ceiling fan for alternating current circuits and an induction desk fan motor which has neither commutator nor collector rings. These are made for 7,200 or 16,000 alternations. Instructions are given in this, as in previous catalogues, for the care of the Meston Motors." Provided below is the book link to the page from the Electrical World with the above article. http://books.google.com/books?id=I1BEAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA735&lpg=PA735&dq=emerson+induction+desk+fan+motor+1895&source=bl&ots=8HBW-gA-A4&sig=h26FgJscGPH2xJuFnZ0gayGzCkM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B5TdU9-dFImTyASR9IKwBA&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=emerson%20induction%20desk%20fan%20motor%201895&f=false |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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This advertisement with the claimed newly introduced for the 95 season Emerson induction desk fan from the same Electrical World book of 1895 containing the Emerson article posted above. Attached Image (viewed 1555 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: My conclusions, for now, are The hanging switch Meston was made from 1894 until 1898, |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1895 Emerson induction desk fan Attached Image (viewed 1504 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1896 Emerson induction desk fan. Attached Image (viewed 1503 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1897 Emerson induction desk fan. Attached Image (viewed 1497 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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New switch 1898. Attached Image (viewed 1503 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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BTW..... John, enjoyed my phone conversation with you. As far as a name for the Emerson induction motor claimed introduced in 95.....how about the "Emerson induction lever back desk fan". Why not make it simple. This post has been most challenging, and it appears not a post to come to conclusions. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Russ Huber wrote: As far as a name for the Emerson induction motor claimed introduced in 95.....how about the "Emerson induction lever back desk fan". Why not make it simple.Simplest would seem to be as Emerson themselves called their new for 1895 Induction Fan Motor in the 1896 catalog page below: "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor or, for short and simple, "Induction Fan Motor". Even "Back switch induction fan motor". Anything but "Meston" which it is not in spite of the fact that many have MESTON cast into the front motor bell. Attached Image (viewed 1795 times): Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 08:01 am by Steve Stephens |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Russ Huber wrote: As far as a name for the Emerson induction motor claimed introduced in 95.....how about the "Emerson induction lever back desk fan". Why not make it simple. "Back switch induction fan motor". I told Trier on the phone you would jump in and name it. I wonder if I get a complimentary box of Cracker Jacks?"Lever Switch Emerson Induction Fan Motor." The 98 has the rotary switch in the back as well. Think about it Steveo. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Not I; Emerson named their fans. I will probably just call it as they did and add the year(s) model. Better yet: Meston, 1895-96 tripod, 1897 tripod, and 1898-01 tripod. Lots of ways to name them aren't there? |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Emerson Electric 1893. Looks like a cake walk to work there. page 107. The photo of the individual outside the factory photo more than likely be Alexander Meston. The photo is prior to his death. http://books.google.com/books?id=O3s2AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA108&dq=Emerson+meston+fan+motors+1899&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hsbdU5GEEe_e8AGFw4H4DA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Emerson%20meston%20fan%20motors%201899&f=false Attached Image (viewed 1734 times): Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 08:48 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Emerson product and incorporation mention. Book page dated Oct. 22, 1890. http://books.google.com/books?id=N-pQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA440&dq=Emerson+Electric+Manufacturing+Company+Incorporation++1890&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W9DdU-3fO4WqyATOzYII&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Emerson%20Electric%20Manufacturing%20Company%20Incorporation%20%201890&f=false Attached Image (viewed 1737 times): Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 09:26 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Earlier Emerson product patent filed in July of 90. https://www.google.com/patents/US442705?dq=442705&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LtfdU5KYMYaL8QGQ8YF4&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA Attached Image (viewed 1734 times): Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 09:33 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Emerson status 1920. Attached Image (viewed 1756 times): |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Seems like the ball is in our court on this. As induction technology emerges, it would seem natural to advertise it in publications. Thus: "the induction fan motor". A sales tactic. Not certain which was better...... brush and commutator vs. induction, they also kept the "old reliable" in production. Bad example but you can still buy an iPhone 4 even though there are completely new operating systems in the iPhone 5s. The induction "Meston" was an improvement on the "old reliable". They would advertise it as such. GE Pancakes were never called pancakes by GE..... I'm so friggin confused by all this I could scream. We are trying to get into the minds of 30 factory workers and what they intended. I posted earlier that this is the golden age of fan making. In a few years fans started to degrade in quality and in beauty and making them cheaper and more affordable was the balance manufacturers faced. Tri-pods were a little cheaper being made with cast iron, steel cages, and so on. The induction Meston was an improvement in every way, not a downgrade. Also ...... repeating. Has an original million wire Meston cage ever been found? As far as a name goes...... I vote for, "hanging Meston" ....... I still view it as a Meston. At least this morning. Oh and Russ, I enjoyed our discussion very much too. Hobbies are so healthy, I try to not make them all consuming but that's a loosing battle sometimes. Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 03:35 pm by John Trier |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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John T, - Several years ago a "million wire guard" showed up on ebay with a buy-it-now for $75.00 - I called a friend of mine in Texas who owns two Mestons he won the auction, but never received the guard - seller was probably offer a larger sum of money. I have noticed that a lot of photos posted, seems to always show the back side of the motor - anyone got some front photos? |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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John Trier wrote: The induction Meston was an improvement in every way, not a downgrade.It seems to me if the back switch 1895-96 Emerson Induction motor was a Meston in any way that Emerson or some publication would attach the name "Meston" to it in the literature or catalogs but that was not done. Why? Remember that a Meston is a brush and commutator motor and that is mentioned in both Emerson catalogs and other publications of the day. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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My friend Steve and I disagree on this. To me, Meston was a name of a line if fans. Not unlike Seabreeze, or Northwind. I think if it's marked Meston, it's a Meston. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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What is a million wire guard? |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Steve Cunningham wrote: My friend Steve and I disagree on this. To me, Meston was a name of a line if fans. Not unlike Seabreeze, or Northwind. I think if it's marked Meston, it's a Meston. Please read (again) the first two sentences on p. 18 in this 1896 Emerson catalog under "SPECIAL DIRECTIONS FOR FAN MOTORS". To me those statements leave no doubt that a Meston motor has brushes and commutator and that the Induction Motor is not a Meston. http://www.fancollectors.org/Emerson1/Images/ads/1896%20Emerson%20Fan%20Catalog.pdf |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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Steve C. Photo of "million wire guard" Attached Image (viewed 1709 times): |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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I think mine has that guard. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Emerson called that guard a "Close Guard" and it is shown on p. 9 of the 1896 catalog, link just above. |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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The Guard is shown on page 21 of the 1898 cat. |
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Fred Berry Guest
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Well, here is the one that is on page two of this thread. I am fairly certain that this is the guard you are talking about. OSHA approved... One thing is for certain...All the patents and diagrams and factory photos just prove that these Emerson fans were the very best ever made. ALOT of company pride went into these antique fans...The same pride that went into these old Meston line of motors also went into the 776XX line of motors. Attached Image (viewed 1733 times): |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: What is a million wire guard? I just don't know what to call it..... Does this guard have an official name? And ..... are there any originals in the club or known for sure? And Ron J ....... very interesting about the ebay guard. Where a bouts unknown? That's one swell cage. Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 09:45 pm by John Trier |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: My friend Steve and I disagree on this. To me, Meston was a name of a line if fans. I feel the same way, BUT.....Steveo has a number of trade journals in his favor. There is more than one clearly defined difference in the early electrical books between the induction desk fan and the "old reliable" MESTON brushed desk fan. Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 09:51 pm by Russ Huber |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Not I; Emerson named their fans. I will probably just call it as they did and add the year(s) model. Better yet: Meston, 1895-96 tripod, 1897 tripod, and 1898-01 tripod. Lots of ways to name them aren't there? Clearly, Emerson had a new motor to place on the market. The induction motor. But they placed it into a Meston body. It looks basically the same. The only physical appearance difference is the hanging switch. Does Emerson "name" any of their fans? Don't they simply have type numbers. What do they call the 1897 tripod. What does Emerson call the 98 and 99 tripods? Seems like the only "name" ever given to a fan is the original "Meston". We have coined names for fans....... I cannot imagine calling the "hanging Meston" anything other than a Meston. The guys in the factory certainly wanted the world to know that a NEW motor was on the market but they also advertised it as having the appearance of a Meston. I feel that was by design, as it lasted for years which lends credence to the "hanging switch Meston". Even in the 1890's the original Meston had 2 names. "Meston" and "old reliable" |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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ONE MORE TRY It appears there is only one, or possibly two, people left still calling Meston fans Emersons despite all common sense and human logic! The statement quoted many times by several people, "Our 'Old Reliable' Meston" was first used in 1896 along with "TYPE M. 1--10,000 in Constant Use" and showing it with the hanging switch is proof enough for the rest of the world, especially those fortunate enough to own the New Mestons. There is no logical reason to refer to your old model other than the fact that you have come out with a new model---Meston! In 1897, they again use the Old Reliable Meston terminology and introduce the "M. 2, 3=Inch Fan Motor. No, I'm not going there! From Ron's wonderful work and Jim's before him, we have the number of hanging switch Mestons listed and from these numbers ranging from first to last, so far, it is obvious that Emerson produced at least that number of each model. As some famous person often remarks, "fact Jack". The class designations FI 1 & FI 2 were used throughout all tripods, Meston and Emerson, differentiating the 12 and 16 inch models (with some 15 inch). The Type System had not yet been introduced. From 2013 data, the latest I have, the following is concluded. There is later data with several more Mestons appearing since I started this thread. 1st, introduced in the 1893 catalog (but supplied in 1892) the Meston tripod Series AA numbers from 8,470 to 11,174 = at least 2,704 fans (IVS). Tripod Meston Series A numbers from 1,338 to 9,598 = at least 8,260. Tripod Meston Class FI 1 numbers from 29 to 900 = at least 871 (Hanging Switch). EI 1, EI 2, FI 1, and FI 2 Emerson tripod numbers from 21,326 to 40,399 = at least 19,073. Why is someone, with the knowledge and capability, not acquiring and posting the 1892 first catalog of Emerson's, which is now in the public domain at the Mo. Historical Society? I would if I could. This, as stated before, will bring to every ones attention the fact that it was impossible for Emerson to have been making all of the products listed. Jobbers? Also by 1893 Emerson listed, with addresses, 22 agents in 16 different States, the Oklahoma Territory and England, Agents for Great Britain and the Continent. I'm still having fun and don't believe there is any disagreement about 1898 and later. Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 10:53 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Russ Huber wrote: Steve Cunningham wrote:My friend Steve and I disagree on this. To me, Meston was a name of a line if fans. Word for Word from the March 27, 1897 Electrical World, second paragraph down far top left under the title "Induction desk and Ceiling Fans" in the Electrical World book link provided below. Page 431. Take notice in the direct quote below no mention of..... "old reliable" "The induction desk fan (Fig. 1) reassembles somewhat the "Meston" motors which are manufactured by this company, and which have made an excellent reputation." http://books.google.com/books?id=zulAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA431&dq=Emerson+Induction+desk+fan+Meston++1897&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d5PeU62aJ4eayATKs4GYAQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Emerson%20Induction%20desk%20fan%20Meston%20%201897&f=false Attached Image (viewed 1662 times): Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 11:08 pm by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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NO CONTEST DIFFERENTIATION: "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor." Its General Appearance Is Like Our Celebrated "Meston" Motor." Attached Image (viewed 1664 times): Last edited on Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 11:21 pm by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Why is someone, with the knowledge and capability, not acquiring and posting the 1892 first catalog of Emerson's, which is now in the public domain at the Mo. Historical Society? I would if I could. This, as stated before, will bring to every ones attention the fact that it was impossible for Emerson to have been making all of the products listed. Jobbers? Emerson was not in any way shape or form established as an electrical contractor, jobber, or agency. Purely and simply as a manufacturer. So what you see offered on the Emerson advertisement, is what they manufactured....fact Jack. Attached Image (viewed 1681 times): Last edited on Mon Aug 4th, 2014 01:33 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Advertisement in the above posted book. Attached Image (viewed 1667 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, I can hardly wait until you get the 78 page 1892 catalog, with products like the "AYER" ARC LIGHT CUT-OUT, 30 foot cast iron trolley line poles, 28 foot trolley iron cectre line poles, SURGICAL AND DENTAL LAMPS, and of course the Meston Alternating Fan Motor with the two models listed as previously noted. Looking at the addresses and sites, it is hard for me to believe they are big enough to house the foundries and other equipment and facilities to produce everything in this catalog. I hope you get the catalog soon and am anxious to get your opinion after you have had time to peruse it. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Bill, what is listed in the above posted Emerson advertisement may be for most part their product? Much of it is listed being introduced is in their 91 product line. Some of it even patented. I will not dismiss the distinct possibility Emerson in their catalogue promoted other manufacturer's product related to the benefit of their product sales sold through their primary agency in Chicago.....the Electrical Appliance Company. One hand washes the other. Emerson may of promoted another manufacturer through their catalogue by promoting additional sales and support to their life line....their agency. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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If the backswitch induction was advertised as an Emerson fan, I may have to change my thoughts. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Steve Cunningham wrote: If the backswitch induction was advertised as an Emerson fan, I may have to change my thoughts.Is there any doubt that the back switch Induction Motor fan was advertised as an Emerson? Here is a copy from the 1896 Emerson catalog .pdf that you sent me Steve. Everything on the page about this fans says "Emerson" and "Induction Motor" but nothing about "Meston" or the Induction fan motor being a Meston. Attached Image (viewed 1626 times): |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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Steve, I think you convinced me. Emerson may well have been using up, old Meston end bells on the new fans. But if it was advertised as an Emerson, that counts a lot. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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This page is from the same 1896 Emerson catalog showing the Meston Fan Motor. I see no connection between this Meston and the Emerson Induction fan motors in the catalog. Each is a different model with a different name and constructed differently from each other. Both do probably share the same front motor end bell casting with MESTON 1/8 HP AC MOTOR cast into the bell. A sharing of parts between the Meston and the Emerson Induction does not mean that each motor is a Meston and, in fact, later models of the back hanging switch had cast into them EMERSON INDUCTION MOTOR. The Meston has brushes and a commutator; the Induction motor does not. Attached Image (viewed 1667 times): |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: This page is from the same 1896 Emerson catalog showing the Meston Fan Motor. I see no connection between this Meston and the Emerson Induction fan motors in the catalog. Each is a different model with a different name and constructed differently from each other. Both do probably share the same front motor end bell casting with MESTON 1/8 HP AC MOTOR cast into the bell. A sharing of parts between the Meston and the Emerson Induction does not mean that each motor is a Meston and, in fact, later models of the back hanging switch had cast into them EMERSON INDUCTION MOTOR. The Meston has brushes and a commutator; the Induction motor does not. I don't know anyone who would dispute the evolution of the original Meston. The new induction motor, fits inside the old parts already available and in production. The end result visually looks like a Meston. It appears by the advertisements that both fans were thought highly of and both were advertised and available. Are we just agonizing about what to call it? We are not agonizing over what to call the 97 tripod or the 98-01 tripod. Question: In 1897, were there 3 fans being offered? The 97, the hanging meston and the old reliable? If so..... what was the purpose of the 97? A cheaper fan? What year did the hanging meston leave or exit the market? I look at the price @$30-$35 as a months wage for the average worker. If the 97 was $25, that would be a significant savings and a reason for it to compete with the other 2 fans. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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John Trier wrote: Are we just agonizing about what to call it? I feel it is important for historical accuracy to call things by the name that the making company used. Now that the information has become available why not adhere to what Emerson called and advertised their different models as? I only have the 1896 and 1898 catalogs so can't say what was being offered in 1897 but might guess that the 1897 model replaced the earlier hanging switch Induction Motor fan of 1895-96 and was probably a modification of the earlier design in several respects such as the elimination of the bronze covers, the finish, and a different switch. If you are still calling the back switch Induction Motor from 1895-96 a "Meston" you may not have understood some of this thread about why it is not a Meston. I know that old habits die hard and so many, I included, have thought that all bronze bell Emersons are Mestons. Only when I really got to reading and looking at some fans did I realize that is not so. |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: John Trier wrote:Are we just agonizing about what to call it? It is beyond reason to think that Emerson was using up parts for years and it is also unlikely that they were saving money by not getting new molds. They intentionally left the Meston end bell in production. You can ignore what your eye sees, but you will be in the minority. |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Gentlemen! Just like I said earlier in a post. These young companies used every thing up and were not shackled by laws and rules used now days... If left over parts fit or worked they used them...There is no telling what combinations came from the factory. All of these publications should only be considered suggestions as to what was coming from the factories... I dont think any thing published should be considered as gospel. Now the info from the factory will be more accurate when all is considered... I am talking about production numbers and changes in product made on the fly. I do not get too hung up with publications about new product or what it finally looked like in the saturday evening post or other publications in those early days... JMHO... geo... Last edited on Mon Aug 4th, 2014 08:14 pm by George Durbin |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: Gentlemen! Think about it Geo. Leftover parts that last you years? A few months maybe. Never happened. |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi Tom! I am just talking about change overs and end of runs. And during runs... They was guaranteed for ever I believe... you owned a fan for 5 yrs, what did they send to repair it?... There were fan repair shops. There are many explanations for all these fans... Never? ;) C'mon man! ;) Geo... |
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Michael Rathberger Guest 
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I'm happy now I was out bid on the two in St. Louis, if I had won, I would even know what to call it... |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi michael! If you had won them I would say. "Lucky Guy!!" Geo... |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: Hi Tom! No, you should actually think about it. The Meston end bells were used for years on the induction motor. This was not just using stuff up in a changeover. There has never been a cone base shown with an induction motor. These guys were SMART and did not have thousands of *extra* end bells. Inventory control is a given. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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We know that after Emerson phased out the 1500 Model, they used the cages up till they were gone, on the new 11644 models. |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: We know that after Emerson phased out the 1500 Model, they used the cages up till they were gone, on the new 11644 models. And this amounted to how many units over what period of time? Thousands? Years? I doubt it. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Do keep in mind this is just by his own admission an "honest opinion" from George. I hope that part about "I don't think anything published should be considered as gospel" doesn't result in a freak lightning bolt from G O D coming from the sky cooking your carcass to ashes, and your soul skips purgatory on its trip straight to the land down under.(BTW...I am not making reference to Australia). I can go into details about my respect for most part of the more prominent electrical trade journals, but I am sure this would result in yet more personal "honest opinions", which personally I have my own "honest opinion" about...fact Jack |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi Russ! Thanks I think? ;) I am in this conversation just because of the interesting variations you see that dont quite match the journals or factory info... As we find more examples of each it will become clearer... I do not have any of the old mestons and emmy's so I dont have a dog in the fight. sniff....... Just trying to be relevant... :) Ah well... Tonight is black russian night! geo... |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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I don't think I buy the left over parts theory. I feel they had to design the motor "guts" to fit into the "Meston" body. Therefore it was designed to fit into the molds they already had and they choose to "save money" by designing one thing at a time. If the "induction" technology didn't pan out (as they obviously kept the "old reliable" in reserve just to mess with people like us)........... If the "old reliable" was available after the 97 tripod was introduced then someone must know if the "hanging Meston" (sorry Steve S., I'm not ready to call it the "hanging induction" yet) was available too. If all three fans could be bought in the 97 fan season that should tell us something, ........ I'm not sure what but something. How many fans were offered in 1897? In my business, those that buy Sprinters (ugly but great cargo vans) have a choice. They can buy it as a diesel or a gas powered engine. They are both sprinters. Proud of this analogy. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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And in the runs of the 24XXX models, Emerson went from a cast hub, to stamped hub blades. |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Ah well... I took a shot!... :) Geo... |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Steve Cunningham wrote: And in the runs of the 24XXX models, Emerson went from a cast hub, to stamped hub blades.And in the run of 1903 GE fans they went from a cast hub to a stamped hub. 1898 Emerson catalog. Offered were the Meston, the 1897 Model Induction Desk Fan, and the New 1898 Model Alternating Fan Motor. No back hanging back switch induction fan motor offered. I have not seen the 1897 catalog to see if the 1895-86 "Emerson Induction" fan motor was still offered. There was no back switch Meston I can say for certain since all Meston fan motors had the front switch giving infinitely variable speeds. Can anyone shed some light on Emersons' offerings in fan motors for 1897? Also, the 1898 Emerson catalog shows the new 1898 model porcelain switch model with pizza blades. Has anyone ever seen one with such a blade other than Ron's with a newly made blade, below? I bet that the catalog was printed early in the year or previous year and, by the time the fans were being produced, the new Parker blade design had been decided on and incorporated into production for the 1898 model year fans. Attached Image (viewed 1799 times): |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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Steve S. - I don't agree with Emerson printing a catalog a year early -- To me it would be "common sense" if you are about to introduce a "new fan motor" for 1898, everything in the catalog correct including photos. I do think that later in the year they probably started with the Parker. At one time I had 3 Emerson Tripods and I did a test to see which blade put out the most air flow -- using the same fan, same speed and voltage the windmill blades won! Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 04:59 am by Ron Jeter |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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John, I've been intentionally avoiding complicating this issue more, but here goes. First, the simple but still true versions are in posts 14, 18, 20 esp. Paragraph 6, & posts 21 and 27. I actually have two different 1897 Emerson catalogs but the basic fan information is the same in both. The reason I didn't want to muddy the waters more is because this is the year they introduced the so called banded tripods with the iron end bells and the plain aluminum finish. They have been found in both Meston and Emerson varieties. There are also unique guards for '96 (with 10 wires and three flat struts to fit the Meston front) and '97 (with the later style attachment and the adapter I found on my last Meston --"1897-type Wire Guard can be used only on the 1897-type of Motors." This is still the hanging switch Meston! Quite a transition year with the Old Reliable (brush) Meston, the hanging New model Meston, the varied (lighter) hanging switch Emerson, and the two banded models, Meston and Emerson hanging switch. I warned you. Now you can see why I was trying to keep it simple---to no avail! |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: John, Very interesting Bill....... As I said earlier, I cannot imagine calling the hanging switch Meston anything other than a Meston. I like the name you've given it. "Hanging new model Meston". So in 97 they offered 5 different fans, I was thinking 3. I said 2 or 3 times, that the name shown on the advertisement cuts "Induction" motor would have been done to advertise the new induction technology. The sticking point that Steve S. will cite is that it has the "general appearance of our original Meston". What fan......, by what maker has ever been given a name by that very maker? Iron Clad is one. I'm sure there are others. When Emerson said .......... "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor.......... They were not "naming" it ........ they were advertising it. I wonder how they referred to it as they produced it inside the factory? "New Meston" would be what I'd guess. "Hey Frank, hand me an end bell" .... Frank....., "which one Ed"? ...... "The one for the new Meston you dope, can't you see what I'm working on"? |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill, I feel you are muddying the facts by insisting there are Emerson Meston fan motors without brush and commutator. I have yet to see the name Meston connected in any way to place in period to the non-commutator Emerson fan motors. The Meston fan motor is a brush and commutator motor and never an induction motor. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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John Trier wrote: The actual statement by Emerson in reference to their new Induction Fan Motor is "Its General Appearance is like our Celebrated 'Meston' Motor". Again, there are NO references anywhere in period connecting the Emerson Induction Motor fans to being a Meston Motor. I am not guessing at my comments but taking them directly from Emerson catalogs. The Emerson Induction fan motor being a Meston Motor is something made up by uninformed fan collectors I think. Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 06:02 am by Steve Stephens |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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Steve Stephens wrote: The Meston fan motor is a brush and commutator motor and never an induction motor. Steve: You should never say never - instead - you just have not seen one yet! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Ron Jeter wrote: Steve Stephens wrote: The Meston fan motor is a brush and commutator motor and never an induction motor. Beautiful Ron. The MESTON is a brush motor commutator fan that was on the market from 91-the 97 fan motor season ...and the Emerson back lever INDUCTION motor was NEVER a MESTON. In 1899 an agency was dumping used brushed MESTON and Emerson INDUCTION motors for $6.50 a pop. Come and get em while they last! Attached Image (viewed 1730 times): |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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Absolutely Ron! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1898 Attached Image (viewed 1771 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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. Attached Image (viewed 1758 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1899. Attached Image (viewed 1751 times): Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 06:46 am by Russ Huber |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Oh, oh, I think I had better roll over and run for cover. You have uncovered the 1898 style MESTON INDUCTION Desk Fan Motor. Well, I'll be.....I NEVER expected to see that. Someone made a boo boo on that caption didn't they? I have 29646 and 71666 Meston Desk Fans. Still looking for a Meston B-Jr. and a Golden Jubilee Meston. Link for Russ's Electrical Age posts above: http://books.google.com/books?id=T5M7AQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA357&ots=hBZ6ScsSa2&dq=the%20electrical%20age%201898&pg=PA200#v=onepage&q=the%20electrical%20age%201898&f=false Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 07:04 am by Steve Stephens |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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10,000 claimed to be made 91-95. Problem is the agency was shipping them to places like Panama, Argentina, and this one really stings....China! Attached Image (viewed 1728 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Oh, oh, I think I had better roll over and run for cover. You have uncovered the 1898 style MESTON INDUCTION Desk Fan Motor. Well, I'll be.....I NEVER expected to see that. Don't sweat it. The trade Journals used HURRiCANE to name a ROTH & ECK Fan motor selling out in 97. Attached Image (viewed 1751 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Roth & Eck fan motor 95-97. Attached Image (viewed 1730 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1898 American Electrician. Not a peep about Meston. Attached Image (viewed 1719 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1899. No mention of Meston. Attached Image (viewed 1710 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Use the enlarging feature when you open the link to the 98 Western Electrician. EMERSON ALTERNATING CURRENT FAN MOTOR is stated under the improved 1898 desk fan. https://archive.org/stream/westernelectrici22chic#page/216/mode/1up Attached Image (viewed 1709 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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NO CONTEST: "Emerson Electric" Alternating Induction Fan Motor." Its General Appearance Is Like Our Celebrated "Meston" Motor." Attached Image (viewed 1682 times): Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 10:05 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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No mention of Meston. Attached Image (viewed 1744 times): |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Russ Huber wrote: No mention of Meston.The 1898 Emerson catalog does offer three choices of fan motors: the 1897 model, the "Meston" commutator fan motor, and the new 1898 Emerson AC fan motor. Russ, what exactly do you mean by "NO CONTEST DIFFERENTIATION"? Can you put it in different words or, better yet, in a complete sentence? |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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How about...... Starting in 91 there was the brushed MESTON.....it appears in 95 there was the EMERSON INDUCTION MOTOR DESK FAN and brushed MESTON. And in 98 the introduction of an improved Emerson fan motor known simply as the EMERSON ALTERNATING CURRENT FAN MOTOR. For those who want these Emerson fan motor variations to be only a MESTON, it's fine with me, if it makes you feel right in the world. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Russ Huber wrote:No mention of Meston.The 1898 Emerson catalog does offer three choices of fan motors: the 1897 model, the "Meston" commutator fan motor, and the new 1898 Emerson AC fan motor. It would make sense in 98 Emerson had to dump what remained of the inventory of the 97 induction and brushed Meston models. Thus three desk fan motors. The NO Contest stuff is simply stating it is clearly on catalogue material there is an Emerson Induction desk fan motor and a SEPARATE MESTON brushed long established fan motor. In a nut shell...the MESTON stands alone as the reliable long term brush fan motor. Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 10:04 am by Russ Huber |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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IRONY of IRONIES Now it appears we are down to one, different but very persistent, non-believer after over one month and about 430 replies and 12,690 views. That's slow, but, progress! As is often said, Russ, "you should have been there". At Fan Fair 2013 in St. Louis I had four of the five Mestons and Emersons (two of each), available in 1897, on display. Steve S., Bill Samek, Todd Mann, Jeff Whitfield and others examined, turned around, picked up and photographed them all. Sorry Jeff I didn't open them for you to photograph, but I felt too busy at that moment when you requested. Some pictures of three of the four of them are in posts 31, 47, 50 -54 and 379. Since this has been so much fun, I'm ready to share more of it when we get into such controversies as the four different Emerson brackets, (Two for tripods and later models and two for the bed-post fans), the still unanswered differences between the 1500 and the 11644, which all models were in both "stick" (fixed & swivel) and yoke & trunnion, the EI 21, the differences in the 2010 and the 2010a (and why they made the 2010a), and many others which I hope other people will raise. Also remember the members and non-members who own the "Hanging New Model Meston", of the 871 or more made, are sure enjoying possessing a fan that doesn't exist! |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: John Trier wrote:The actual statement by Emerson in reference to their new Induction Fan Motor is "Its General Appearance is like our Celebrated 'Meston' Motor". Again, there are NO references anywhere in period connecting the Emerson Induction Motor fans to being a Meston Motor. I am not guessing at my comments but taking them directly from Emerson catalogs. The Emerson Induction fan motor being a Meston Motor is something made up by uninformed fan collectors I think. Emerson was clearly excited about the new induction motor and went to great lengths to advertise it. Would someone now explain the connection between the Meston brothers and a brush and commutator motor? Did they invent it or just put it into a fan body? If they invented the brush and commutator motor that would strengthen the case of Steve S. If they didn't ...... it weakens it. I'm getting bug eyed. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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John, The more important question for me is, did the surviving Meston brother hold the patents for the New Meston Motors? Or, does it matter? I have considerable Emerson literature on their successful lawsuits against infringers. Also, when did Emerson and other manufacturers start forcing their employees to assign their patents to the company? Having been born in 1931, shortly after the Great Depression, my most vivid memories begin with World War II, when I had a Step-Brother in the Army, stationed at Pearl Harbor, December 7th, 1941. I do remember at that time, with family members involved, companies were then controlling employee's patents. If the patents were used, and made fortunes for the company and stockholders, the employee might receive a turkey, bottle of whiskey, lunch or even a small bonus, but at least they had a job when so many didn't! Many unanswered questions and this is not my forte. Help Russ! Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 03:17 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Still fun, so a new topic for an old thread. Why are so many, (majority?), of the "restored" Emerson fans I see incorrect? They have the wrong cages, wrong struts, wrong blades, wrong wings, brass where there shoud be steel or leather, wrong cords, (head and line), wrong switches, wrong felt or switch covers, wrong badges, wrong nameplates, wrong colors, wrong polishing, pin striping and wrong painted decoration, wrong "patina" , wrong plugs, wrong pedestals, wrong bases, wrong "necks", wrong oscillator parts, wrong preparation for painting, and wrong anything else that is removable. I appreciate "bling" and artistry, but not on my fans. Let's hear some other opinions. I think it's past time that some of our experts get involved and point these things out to the unknowing or intentionally deceptive "restorers"! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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John Trier wrote:
Alexander Meston in one book is stated two years older than his bother Charles. They are claimed in this book to have been born(Alexander) 1866 (Charles)1867 in Scotland. Alexander passed early in 1893 at the age of 26. It is claimed Alexander entered the U.S. at the young age of 14. If Alexander's birth date I read is correct, that puts Alexander 14 years of age and Charles 13 years of age in the U.S. around 1880. I may be off a year or a few, no biggy. It is stated the boys eventually gained employment in the 1880s at the Michigan Car Company of Detriot, Michigan. Railroad. I have seen both Alexander and Charles connected to the Southwestern Electrical Engineering company of St. Louis. Charles is mentioned being in their employment from 89-90. Attached Image (viewed 1678 times): Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 08:33 pm by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Alexander Meston at one point I would assume in the late 1880s attended Washington University of St. Louis for Electrical engineering. His special study stated in a 93 obituary was that of adapting small alternating current motors for use on single phase circuits. Alexander had to be one sharp cookie. With every group of men there are but a few who will stand out from the crowd. They pave their own path, and are not influenced by those who hold status, power, and wealth. Alexander at a young age picked the Alternating current path over Edison and his many disciples. Elihu Thompson was the man behind the AC GE cakes you own and covet. The late Bill Voigt of the AFCA specialized in his engineering field in fractional motors. I had the privilege of a few phone conversations with Bill. He knew his stuff. Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 07:25 pm by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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John Trier wrote:
John, what more do you need to know? Alexander Meston engineered and PATENTED the foundation of the Emerson brushed MESTON fan motor on the market 91-98. I was recently informed the MESTON brushed fan motor was last shown in the 98 catalogue along with the 97 and new 98 model. Very little doubt in my mind Emerson was dumping the remaining stock of the 97 induction desk fans and the brushed MESTON. The Cone based Meston was introduced to the market it appears in May of 91. The patent was filed June 15, 1891. There is an August advertisement of the Cone Meston stating it was being sold for nearly HALF price. So that, fan brother, makes it rather conclusive it was on the market in 91, and Emerson was trying to dump the remaining fan motor inventory. https://www.google.com/patents/US491970?dq=491970&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SQnhU42cLIGgyAS734Ew&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA Attached Image (viewed 1671 times): Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2014 07:49 pm by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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This would be the 92 foundation of the "old reliable" MESTON brushed fan motor engineered by Alexander Meston. The patent was filed August 1, 1892. Alexander must of had the Tesla complex.....they must not of been all bent on getting their inventions filed for patent before they hit the market. Alexander was late for his patent filings on both the cone and tripod base fan motors. In numerous cases I have witnessed patented product is on the market at the time of the patent filing. https://www.google.com/patents/US526083?dq=526083&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ygvhU8-bH8euyATIq4CIBQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA Attached Image (viewed 1777 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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. Attached Image (viewed 1696 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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What this claims Charles Meston did. Attached Image (viewed 1640 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Thanks very much for the Meston brothers detail and genealogy That should help in my continuing search for the first of the cone based motors. It seems like the most logical place to find it, is here, and possibly with one of the descendants. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Thanks very much for the Meston brothers detail and genealogy My surgery has kept me quiet on the couch for most part. I am not even supposed to drive until my follow up soon. So....it has been to my great satisfaction that I have this pile of plastic crap on my lap and Google books. I haven't been to so much as a GP in a decade. After this BS surgery heals it will be back to an apple a day and hopefully I will be 6 feet under before I have to see another white coat with a stethoscope. Your Welcome. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, Hope you're progressing well from your recent surgery. I've been doing a little more surgery recently--all minor. I still keep up my medical license, but it is now limited, after only 56 years since internship. I haven't worn a white coat in decades. A large part of my practice was OB (including home deliveries) and Pediatrics. I found the white coat scared too many children and even some adults. Stay on the right side of the grass! |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Russ Huber wrote: What this claims Charles Meston did. Russ ..... This article explains what Charles Meston did. In conjunction with A W Meston they invented the first commercially successful Alternating current fan motor. That's significant. Charles was involved in all the improvements, full supervision and patents... and the induction ceiling fan and so on. To me this is the most important piece of information yet uncovered. It says to me that the new improved hanging meston is indeed a meston ........ It just wasn't given the Meston name in the advertising cuts. Why? To advertise the new induction motor and to not confuse it with the "old reliable" Charles Meston was all over every improvement or change and had his fingerprints on everything and was indeed...... "Charles in Charge". Emerson .... the way I see it, only named one fan as they entered into the fan business. Their very first and they called it a Meston. No other fan was honored with a name. The hanging Meston carried his name cast into the motor housing, had the look and form. They just didn't choose to use the Meston name in the advertising. The Meston was simply improved with an induction motor and hanging switch. What would the factory workers call it, if they were asked to give it a name? I would guess they'd say something like ........ "I dunno, the improved Meston"...... Last edited on Wed Aug 6th, 2014 04:13 am by John Trier |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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John Trier wrote: They just didn't choose to use the Meston name in the advertising. The Meston was simply improved with an induction motor and hanging switch.Nor did they use the Meston name in their own catalogs for the "Emerson Induction" Motor I think the quotes used with "Meston" and "Alternating Induction" motors pretty much tell the story of what Emerson called these two different fan motors. P. 11 of the Emerson 1898 catalog: External Appearance and General Construction.--In external appearance our 1897 models of Induction Motors will present the same general design as out "Meston" Motors, which have become known in almost every part of the world where the alternating current it used. There, in the last year of a hanging switch Emerson Induction fan motor and the last year of the Meston fan motor that were in an Emerson catalog, the separation of names between the Meston and the Emerson Induction motors are still maintained. NOBODY can show me any connection in name between any brush and commutator "Meston" and the hanging switch "Emerson Induction" fan motors. If the latter were a Meston there surely would be something in print explaining it. Some of you seem to be making assumptions and not reading and learning from what the Emerson 1896 and 1898 catalogs make pretty clear; "Meston" is a brush and commutator motor, 'Emerson Induction' motor has no brushes nor a commutator. The newer Emerson Induction motor is not an "improved" Meston motor but a new kind of motor referred to many times in print by Emerson as their "Emerson Induction" motor. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Another comment from Paul Pierson: "By the way, has anyone explained why they stopped using the Meston name in the first place? Seems like it coincided with the end of the "Meston" motor!!!!!" |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi Everyone! It's just fans and discussion of fans that we are all fans of...Now for the record: i will kiss anyone's butt if I figure I can get a fan out of the deal.  Along the way if that means we are nice and civil then that's a pretty good deal...I think my wife has said it best when I was getting worked up about a fan deal gone bad... She said we act like a buncha bit*chy little girls!Hurt my feelings some, I sucked it up and ageed... This thread is still good reading and has legs... Geo... |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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The MESTON name disappeared after the remaining stock of the long term AC brush motor was sold out in 98. That is a heads up. The brushed MESTON was introduced in 91, and remained on the market with what appears to be annual improvements(significant and small). Improvements to the MESTON at the time of the introduction of the alternating induction desk fan in what appears to be 95 may of slowed down or stopped. But the MESTON brushed fan motor sold out in 98. For John Trier please take time to read the short article on Charles Meston over again. It appears Charles had to fill some big shoes when his brother left the planet in 93. It appears Charles started to shine with the introduction of the alternating ceiling fan in 95. He more than likely designed the back lever AC induction brushless fan motor? But moving into the late 90s Charles was gaining significant momentum with his electrical and mechanical contributions. His patents validate my statement. Then came lifer engineer Herbert Finch I believe around the turn of the century. Finch played a major part in the evolution of the oscillating mechanism. When Emerson Electric was established in 90 John Emerson sat in the big chair and opened his wallet, Charles managed the books(secretary) and Alexander was the consulting engineer. Emerson was a busy place straight through the 90s. Emerson finally established their own eastern agency in the Electrical exchange building(NY) in 1900. Emerson alternating current fans came in to NY from St. Louis by the box car. Emerson was whining around 04 about fans sales. That year and a few years prior the weather was a tad on the cool side during fan motor season. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, I have had back surgery that makes this surgery a cake walk. Obstetrics and pediatrics would appear to me a more rewarding medical profession. Bringing infants into the world, and helping sick children pull the best from within us. As far as surgeons go, it takes a great deal of confidence, knowledge, and artistic talent to hack away every day and do it right on the money. In this day and age a mistake with the knife could strip you of much of what you worked for years and years of your life. Respectively said, many surgeons tend to be rather egotistical and arrogant, especially neurosurgeons. I suppose they d amn near have to be to make that knife do its magic on the money a number of times a day. The good part is I don't have live with them. I'll leave that task up to their significant other. Last edited on Wed Aug 6th, 2014 08:30 am by Russ Huber |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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I did read that cut about 3 times. I found that it supported the notion of the back lever Meston was indeed a Meston since Charles Meston was up to his elbows in its design and patents. He kept the appearance virtually the same and kept the name right on the fan. Yes, and it was a different motor. It was their 2nd fan and they made a conscious decision to keep it's appearance the same and the name right on the fan. The fact that they did that should give this side of the argument credibility. It would have taken little time or effort to make a new fan body and create a new appearance. Emerson did emphasis the new induction technology in their advertising. Also: I enjoyed your comment about neurosurgeons. I can testify first hand that no doctor feeds at the bird feeder before the neurosurgeon. Russ Huber wrote: For John Trier please take time to read the short article on Charles Meston over again. It appears Charles had to fill some big shoes when his brother left the planet in 93. It appears Charles started to shine with the introduction of the alternating ceiling fan in 95. He more than likely designed the back lever AC induction brushless fan motor? But moving into the late 90s Charles was gaining significant momentum with his electrical and mechanical contributions. His patents validate my statement. Then came lifer engineer Herbert Finch I believe around the turn of the century. Finch played a major part in the evolution of the oscillating mechanism. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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I started this thread to learn about my unusual hanging switch Meston and did not wish to stir up any controversy. Strange how some people can distort a very positive event into an extremely negative one. Why? All of the differences between my new one and all of the other hanging switch Mestons have now been answered, mainly with Russ's help, persistence and expertise. Without his help identifying my Gemerson, I would probably never have found the source of that blade (the same as on the Gemerson with the shaft hole drilled through the center). The ring adapter shows up on the unique 1897 hanging switch Meston as also discovered based on this further research of ours. This also explains the knockdown guard with the adapter. This shows what positive work, sharing of knowledge, ignoring the distractors, sticking to facts, (whatever there source), having the time, interest and direct access to the fans, can produce. Special thanks to Ron, Russ, John T., Stefan, Jack J., Geoff, Jeff W., Mark B., Dan H. and all the others who helped solve my mystery. Sorry if I omitted anyone. |
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Michael Rathberger Guest
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Strange how some people can distort a very positive event into an extremely negative one. Why? The whole post was a good read although I got lost half way through. I think someone smarter than me once said "No good deed goes unpunished." Regardless, the information was instructive and it's now in the archives on the site, so if I ever run across the 10% of these (my own estimate) that are yet to be found, I'll know what I'm looking at. Thanks |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Michael Rathberger wrote:
It states 10,000 "IN USE" on this advertisement in July of 95. So this would more than likely not even credit the Emerson alternating induction desk fans and brushed MESTON fan motors manufactured for the 95 fan motor season. So, at the end of the 95 season you could "roughly" figure about 12,000 Emerson desk fans in circulation. Now the ratio of Emerson back lever induction desk fans made as compared to the brushed MESTONS between the years of 95-97....? I would lean toward Emerson focusing on higher yields of the Emerson back lever induction desk fans over the brushed MESTON based on the increasing acceptance of the AC 60 hertz system through the 95-97 seasons. My impression of the Emerson cone base MESTON production of 91 would not be good. It was stated Emerson had an order for the cone base in 91 from Panama. My impression is the boys hand made roughly 800 to maybe exceeding 1000 give or take a few hundred cone base MESTON fan motors in the 91 season. The sad news is I read Emerson sent one order alone of around $1500 worth of fan motors out of the country. Their Foreign shipments through the Meston production years of 91 through 97 would account for why you have a much reduced chance of having one on your shelf. Attached Image (viewed 1603 times): Last edited on Wed Aug 6th, 2014 07:10 pm by Russ Huber |
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Michael Rathberger Guest
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Russ, I should have worded it more carefully, I really meant 10% of survivors, not 10% of the original manufactured quantity. I'll think harder about a vacation to Panama though... |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, The production numbers for all of these Emerson fans (including the H.S.{easier than using hanging switch Mestons}) are available in post 383, thanks to Ron's survey. By using his data of all reported specimens, it is easy to extrapolate and to come up with close production figures, as I have done. As stated before, there were at least 871 H.S. Meston fans produced. "fact Jack" :) |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, After reviewing your "What Year Did Emerson First Offer A Direct Current Motor ?", it dawned on me that we need to team up. You, with your youth, tech savvy & resources, persistence, accuracy--usually:) and all the flattery you can imagine for a future partner, would , of course, be the junior partner, and gain a personal physician, without a white coat. And yours truly, with my age, wisdom, wit, catalogs and fan supply and B.S. would be the senior-- at least in age. Incidentally, everyone knows what B.S. stands for, but I doubt if everyone knows that M.S. stands for More of the Same, and P.H.D. stands for Piled Higher and Deeper. Right, Stefan? On a serious note, that brings on more rambling from the old man. When I was graduated from medical school, one of my professors offered me a position as the private physician to the Rockefeller family. They had asked him, a trusted friend, to choose someone for them. We considered it, but decided it would not be challenging enough and too limiting in scope. What do you think about teaming up? :) Last edited on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 03:03 am by Bill Hoehn |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi Bill! I dont know any one higher up in the food chain to suck up to so here I go with some humor... I didnt know what P>H>D> really stood for till your explanation... You also mentioned something about bs... My best friend is an engineer so I know what I am talking about here... Do you know what the difference is between cowboys boots and engineers boots? Cowboys boots have the bs on the out side of them! ;) geo... |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hey! George, I'm well stocked in goodies, in case you stop by again. One of our sons is an engineer with Emerson, but he doesn't wear boots--darn it! E.B. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Be glad you chose your medical field. Far more rewarding, makes you all warm and tingly inside. This guy shown in the image probably needed frequent use of stool softeners. Then again maybe he downed a shot or two of Standard oil just before bedtime to keep him regular. Attached Image (viewed 1507 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, We did. There will be another time. |
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Josh Backens Guest 
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Such a deep, long conversation that I haven't really followed. I'm honestly surprised Dreeson hasn't come along to make a little fun out of this  . Not to be a downer...... Just think it's funny from time to time lol. Ok, back to reading this ever long post to see if I have something worthwhile to say. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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1898 Attached Image (viewed 1511 times): |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Morning Partner, I see the D.C. fans in post 466 are Paragons not Emersons. Good work again. I think I'll keep you for a partner, but you're on probation for 6 months. :) If no one else (Gerry, Dan, Mark B,, Mark D., John H., Steve, Gary, Larry, John R., Rich, Ric, Bob, etc.), is going to get you that '92 Emerson catalog at the Hysterical Society, I may, and mail it to you. :) That will give me a chance to acquire new material for us. :) |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Morning Partner, George Towle had the charter to make Paragon fan motors exclusively for the 98 season. Martin Insull and Sammy(Chicago Edison) bought out J. P. William's entire Paragon Exhibit in NY in 97. After the 98 Towle Charter, J. P. Williams falls from the books as does his NY based agency in 99. The Insulls bought him out and sent him to the Bahamas drinking Mai Tais. General Incandescent absorbs the Paragon fan and motor company of Lancaster and moves the factory to NY. For 99 the Paragon desk fan sports a new face, and a new Paragon CF is introduced in the same year. Last edited on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 11:12 am by Russ Huber |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, We have one more thing in common--not sleeping! Another ramble. One time while working a 36 hour shift as an Intern, I was called to check an elderly patient for some reason I've forgotten. Holding on to the edge of the bed while this beautiful nurse was describing the patients problem, I fell asleep, standing up! She did find some way to awaken me! Thinking of other fan related lists I've started, but will never finish, are some of Emerson's fans that are in the literature but never produced. Also, there are those that we know were produced, own and enjoy, but were never listed as such in their literature. There is no way I can live long enough to even read all of my catalogs, books, letters etc. from Emerson. One of the latter executives took it upon himself to have several of the earliest catalogs beautifully leather bound. Looks pretty, but ruins them for my old type of copying flat. Thankfully I did all of my copying years before he had his binding done! |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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Josh Backens wrote: Such a deep, long conversation that I haven't really followed. I'm honestly surprised Dreeson hasn't come along to make a little fun out of this Keep reading. And it is DreesEn. If you attempt to scold me, at least get the name correct. Keep it up, worthwhile or not, but flattery will get you anywhere. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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1896 Western Electrician ad: In 1896 Emerson was making and selling two lines of desk fans as shown in the ad below: "Meston" Induction There is no mention of a Meston with hanging switch or an "improved Meston". Just MESTON and INDUCTION fan motors. https://archive.org/stream/westernelectrici18chic#page/n855/mode/1up Attached Image (viewed 1524 times): Last edited on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 12:01 am by Steve Stephens |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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What is it about this thread and this debate that keeps me thinking about it all day long? Is this a new angle? No one questions there was a new fan with a new and completely different motor. The company named the first motor and fan a "Meston" probably due to the fact that Emerson was just founded and Alexander Meston was their king and was honored with a name. Nothing else was ever named....... ever. (Induction motor is not really a name, it's a description) However, ..... how much weight do we give the fact that the new induction fan (#2 in their line, ever) was designed by Charles Meston, carried virtually the same appearance and also had the name "Meston" cast right into the motor housing? It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work of deciding how to proceed with this hanging Meston fan issue. I don't think the factory or the company gave it a second thought. Steve Stephens wrote: 1896 Western Electrician ad: Last edited on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 03:16 am by John Trier |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Emerson did have to go and confuse the matter by using the Meston casting for the front casting of their Induction Motor didn't they? I see past that confusing but see how others probably won't. Eventually Emerson decided to change the front casting to read Induction Motor and not Meston. I'm still looking for the photo I have that shows both names on the front bell. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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What is that "object" in the cut at about 4:00 O'Clock on the back of the fan motor? Sure looks like the end if ax switch lever to me. |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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John Trier wrote: What is it about this thread and this debate that keeps me thinking about it all day long? Is this a new angle? No one questions there was a new fan with a new and completely different motor. The company named the first motor and fan a "Meston" probably due to the fact that Emerson was just founded and Alexander Meston was their king and was honored with a name. Nothing else was ever named....... ever. (Induction motor is not really a name, it's a description) However, ..... how much weight do we give the fact that the new induction fan (#2 in their line, ever) was designed by Charles Meston, carried virtually the same appearance and also had the name "Meston" cast right into the motor housing? It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work of deciding how to proceed with this hanging Meston fan issue. I don't think the factory or the company gave it a second thought. "Nothing else was ever named....... ever." Silver Swan and Golden Jubilee come to mind ... |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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STEVE C. - Thats a good eye on the photo - I am with you thats a switch lever! Attached Image (viewed 1654 times): |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Opps....... But this was a different era, 40 years in the future. But .... point taken. And one more thing........ Why did Emerson keep the same form, the bronze end bells and the name "meston" in their 2nd fan? Was it in their mind to keep the "Meston" alive in the hearts and minds of the company? |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Steve Cunningham wrote: What is that "object" in the cut at about 4:00 O'Clock on the back of the fan motor? Sure looks like the end if ax switch lever to me.No question that is the switch handle of the Induction Motor. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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John Trier wrote: Could be because they didn't have to make a new pattern for the front bell by using the existing MESTON bell pattern. They eventually did make a new pattern for the front bell and the new one said EMERSON A.C. INDUCTION MOTOR with few if any changes to the motor.Why did Emerson keep the same form, the bronze end bells and the name "meston" in their 2nd fan? |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Here is Stefan's photo showing two Induction motors. The left one is marked EMERSON INDUCTION MOTOR while the right one is marked on the front casting MESTON A.C. MOTOR. Both motors are Emerson Induction motors, not Mestons which are brush and commutator motors. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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As well as Northwind, and Seabreeze. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Here is Stefan's photo showing two Induction motors. The left one is marked EMERSON INDUCTION MOTOR while the right one is marked on the front casting MESTON A.C. MOTOR. Both motors are Emerson Induction motors, not Mestons which are brush and commutator motors. Attached Image (viewed 1501 times): |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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John Trier wrote:
That is the 64 dollar question. Possibly to appease Meston, maybe to keep that *popular* name in front of the public, but I doubt it was a money saving decision. Making new molds would be a relatively small expense. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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The burgundy one has much larger vent holes. Also note all the screw holes around the end bell. I have no clue what those three rectangular things are on the rotor. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Vent hole size or number of screw holes (for cage mounting) would be cause to change the type of motor from Meston to Induction. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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But they're both induction motors. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Steve Cunningham wrote: But they're both induction motors.Correct. One has INDUCTION MOTOR cast into the end bell while the other has MESTON MOTOR. But neither are MESTON motors because they are both Induction motors and all Mestons are brush and commutator motors, not Induction Motors. I hope one of these days I will make believers out of all of you. I know that I am learning a lot from this thread. |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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I bet if you study the 96 and 98 catalogs, you'll find the one with the large holes is a utility motor. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Here's the red fan of Stefan's that I pictured. It's just a plain old 1897 Emerson Induction fan motor. Attached Image (viewed 1487 times): |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Steve Stephens wrote: Steve Cunningham wrote:But they're both induction motors.Correct. One has INDUCTION MOTOR cast into the end bell while the other has MESTON MOTOR. But neither are MESTON motors because they are both Induction motors and all Mestons are brush and commutator motors, not Induction Motors. I hope one of these days I will make believers out of all of you. I know that I am learning a lot from this thread. Steve ...... I think everyone believes what you say. We all understand the hanging Meston is a different fan and that it has a different motor. I contend, that Emerson didn't name it ...... they described it. If Emerson was required by law to name their new models, what would they have called it? "Meston Induction Fan"? How many different silver swans are there? Different seagulls? These don't carry "names" but in the 19xxx series fans some are DC others are AC. Based on your arguments and then taking into account Bronze end bells, virtual visual identical appearance, and the name Meston cast into the fan, it seems that the logical name for this fan is the "Meston Induction Fan"......... "old reliable" and "Meston" are already taken. As Bill said a long time ago, Emerson doesn't really care about their history, so it is up to us as their historians to decide. A committee seems to be in order at this point since we seem to be just rehashing all the same arguments. Each side should give their arguments and they should be put in print, then the afca members at large could vote. Or if we view ourselves as a representative organization, the committee and/or the board and leadership could decide. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Who cares what you call it? We all know what it is! I just quickly reviewed Steve S's 71 posts all saying the same thing. Who are you trying to convince Steve--us, or yourself maybe? This was very painful to review, because I can't stand cats. :) |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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John Trier wrote: Logical would be to call the two fans exactly what Emerson did: "Meston" and "Induction" Fan Motor. They don't say such a time or two but in every Emerson catalog and ad we see. I understand your and Bill's desire to keep "Meston" as part of the name for the Induction Motor but it just isn't a Meston. And as much as I am repeating myself you are also saying your version of what you think repeatedly. I'm sorry you don't care what we call these Emersons but it seems that Emerson themselves had names or descriptions for each motor and MESTON is never applied to the later Induction Motor other than being cast on the end bell on many due to the use of a common part for each fan motor. As for cats and fans, I DO care. |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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"MESTON is never applied to the later Induction Motor other than being cast on the end bell on many due to the use of a common part for each fan motor." At least you have dropped the "using up extra parts" meme. Now you are saying the workers couldn't figure out the correct part to use. There are too many examples of Meston bells on induction motors for it to be any other than intentional on Emerson's part. |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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So this thread has more than 14,000 hits in 39 days, which, using a daily average would mean it's receiving perhaps 358 views a day. If, assuming there are 700 members, that would mean every person in the club would've had to view the thread about 20 times. Naaaaa. (That's assuming my numbers are right.) I'd like to see the info relating to who's visiting this thread over what time frame similar to what Flickr shows its users. I visit this thread, too, but ... whoa. Last edited on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 06:54 pm by Jeff Whitfield |
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Michael Rathberger Guest
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Jeff Whitfield wrote: I'd like to see the info relating to who's visiting this thread over what time frame similar to what Flickr shows its users. I visit this thread, too, but ... whoa. I confess, 13,000 of those are me... |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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GE used up flatter bases when they went to the higher domed base. Century used up S4 bases on the early S3's. Emerson put the 1500 badges on the 11644, until inventory was depleted. I'm sure others can come up with more examples. The Mestons were Scotsmen. The Scots were well known for frugality. Why wouldn't they use up old inventory? |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Michael Rathberger wrote: Jeff Whitfield wrote:I'd like to see the info relating to who's visiting this thread over what time frame similar to what Flickr shows its users. I visit this thread, too, but ... whoa. The other hits are mine... geo... |
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Tim Marks Guest
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Steve Cunningham wrote: GE used up flatter bases when they went to the higher domed base. Century used up S4 bases on the early S3's. Emerson put the 1500 badges on the 11644, until inventory was depleted. I'm sure others can come up with more examples. The Mestons were Scotsmen. The Scots were well known for frugality. Why wouldn't they use up old inventory? I agree 100%. Also, tooling for a new cap is no easy task. Aside from the actual cost there's the time, testing, quality inspection, etc. New parts are always a lot of work versus existing parts. There's a lot of logic in using up old parts before moving on to something new. I manufacture pumps for a living, so I like to think I know a little bit about this type of thing. |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hi Tim ans Steve! You guys posted my points much better than I... Referring to post #397 JMHO geo... And if you look at the early pictures, these guys are working out of buildings that look like they are little more than small uninsulated barns... Last edited on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 08:13 pm by George Durbin |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Hi Jeff, This thread is still in it's infancy or maybe still "in utero". The new challenge for the day relates to Emerson guard badges. Most refer to the 1500 badge (1909). There was no such thing. It was the first and only badge offered at that time. They obviously switched to their second version during the 11644 run after about 4000 fans in 1910. But, from there on? Who's going to pick up the challenge, and tell us what year and on which Type, each of the successive badges was first used? Just to see a chronological listing with pictures would be very interesting to me. How about one of you young men picking up the ball? Incidentally, no one has to go to the Mo. Historical Society for the 1892, (first, Emerson) catalog. I did it yesterday, and plan to ship Russ a complete copy (78 pages) later today. E. B. |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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Hey Guys: I have 24 Emerson 11644 with the 1500 on the guard - and I only started to keep up with these about 3 years ago. I am a firm believer that Emerson used up inventories. |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Ron Jeter wrote: Hey Guys: I have 24 Emerson 11644 with the 1500 on the guard - and I only started to keep up with these about 3 years ago. I am a firm believer that Emerson used up inventories. 24? What the?? ;) Throw a dog a bone!! What kind of butt kissing I got to do to get a rib base around here?? Man that aint right! :) geo... |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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Tim Marks wrote: Steve Cunningham wrote:GE used up flatter bases when they went to the higher domed base. Century used up S4 bases on the early S3's. Emerson put the 1500 badges on the 11644, until inventory was depleted. I'm sure others can come up with more examples. The Mestons were Scotsmen. The Scots were well known for frugality. Why wouldn't they use up old inventory? 5 years worth of extra parts? Those Scots were sure poor on the front end of ordering ... |
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Tim Marks Guest
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Tom Dreesen wrote:
We can never know whether the parts were sitting in inventory or maybe they just didn't think it was worth it to create a new mold due to the complexities in doing so that I described above. Regardless, there's solid evidence that the culture of Emerson at the time didn't have an issue with using up old designs before making transitions. There are lots of reasons in a manufacturing environment why you may do so which include but aren't limited to: marketing advantages, cost savings of old inventory, cost savings in avoiding the design of a new mold, and less risk of a quality problem due to a new part. Last edited on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 08:41 pm by Tim Marks |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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marketing advantages, Then they are Mestons cost savings of old inventory, No doubt, but the numbers belie that as likely. cost savings in avoiding the design of a new mold, Possibly, but they made new molds for the body, etc. Unlikely IMO. and less risk of a quality problem due to a new part. All they had to change were the words. |
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Tim Marks Guest
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Tom Dreesen wrote: marketing advantages, Tom- Not really sure what you're debating. What I said above is accurate and common for the manufacturing industry. Many companies make many decisions for various reasons. The truth lies in some combination of the above four reasons, plus some we're not considering. You'll never know exactly why these OEM's did what they did, no amount of evidence will ever change that certainty aside from speaking with the man who made the decision himself. And btw, I do agree with you that there was likely a very big incentive to doing what they did in order to keep the Meston name on the product. Evidence suggests it had some marketing advantages. Last edited on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 09:23 pm by Tim Marks |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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It's interesting how the cast iron FI-1 tripods use a different motor endbell design than that of a Meston (ornate periphery design as opposed to the use of a pattern of holes around the edge), but that when the Emerson 910, 1010, PI-241 etc. appear, the endbells return to the use of the pattern of holes around the edge that was used on Meston. More FI-1 tripods appear on the Emerson survey than the earlier Mestons so it stands to reason that more FI-1's were probably produced. If the FI-1 was successful, why would Emerson return to a design hearkening back to the Mestons and not continue with a design more consistent with the FI-1 ... |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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Tim Marks wrote: Tom Dreesen wrote:marketing advantages, You really need to keep up Tim. What is being debated is why so many induction motors over a number of production years have been found with Meston end bells and what to call them. If I ever am so lucky to find an induction motor with Meston end bell, I will not ignore what any person with eyes can see (or even feel without eyes). |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, The first Emerson catalogue, 1892, is on it's way via U.S.P.S. Expected delivery date is Mon 08/11/14. Enjoy, and feel free to share with everyone. It has the cut of the second and third versions of the cone based Meston. Enjoyed our phone conversation yesterday. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Steve S., It took a little patience and persistence to research, and I know you spent a lot of time recently working on your friend Bill's collection, but I was curious to find out how many times you referred to variations of the words Meston and brushes, since I started this thread. So far, it has been 279 times, not counting the words in your pictures or links. Just curious now, after all that, as to how many people you think have switched their minds, and now want to call H.S. Mestons, "Emersons? |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill, Thank you for the phone call, your time, and the rocket speed efforts put forth to bring this catalogue into my life. Others have provided me with ephemera and I appreciate all of them. I have a plastic tote I keep everything in so I keep it all in one place. I am very poor with orderly filing of documentation. I study it all for details, and take nothing for granted from AFCA members, outside individuals, and direct decendants of the fan makers. Attached Image (viewed 1403 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 01:35 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Suggestion regarding the MESTON issue: I have witnessed since the start of this post many dated articles in respected electrical trade journals. There is strong support in Steve Stephen's favor, and I assure you I am not showing Steve favoritism. There is also at least two journal references that refer to ALL Emerson fan desk fans(brushed or brushless) sporting the tripod look as a Meston. These references are made by an individual(s) that see an Emerson Meston be it brushed or induction as a Meston. To continue beating this dead horse only results in filling this post with pointless repeated posts as a result of a peeing contest. Respectively said, I don't agree with everything Bill has to say, nor he with everything I have said. I do agree however with one of Bill's recent statements. I will quote it below........ "Who cares what you call it? We all know what it is!" If Bill doesn't take offense, I would like to modify his statement a tad....... "Who cares what you call it? AS LONG AS WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT IS." |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Electrical Review dated Feb. 9th 1901 page 189. Word for word in a article written by former C & C engineer Frederick Henshaw. "The Meston alternating fan motor, a description of which was first published in May, 1891, probably deserves the first place. This motor was and "IS" manufactured by the Emerson Electric manufacturing Company, which has found it very successful." ~ Freddy Henshaw The image below is taken from the Western Electrician dating April 13, 1901. Attached Image (viewed 1380 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 03:20 am by Russ Huber |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Well put, Russ, Better than my phraseology, and semantics do matter. Thank you, and let's move on to other interesting but not as controversial topics! Of course, we should stick with THE BEST, EMERSON! Oh, oh, I did it again. :) Do I have to start with the badge series, or has it been done before? It would be much more interesting with pictures which I'm still not doing. |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Here's a question sort of related to this thread. I've noticed in all these Emerson adds or banners posted, words like "unequaled" or "Cheapest". A great deal of attention was given by Emerson in promoting their fans. If the big 3 "Emerson" ...... "General Electric" ....... and "Westinghouse" were competing for the fan market. Who won or became the most dominate? If ebay examples are any indication.... General Electric won hands down and in a big way. Are there production numbers or any indication who became dominate and why? If GE was dominate as I suspect, was Emerson and Westinghouse about equal for 2nd and 3rd place. Is there anyone who could very briefly comment on these 3 fan manufacturers. I guess now I wonder if Emerson was more or less in 3rd place since Westinghouse made a lot of stuff for other companies. Up until about 1910 is what interests me and also the start up of each company. Sans Emerson since this thread pretty much covers Emerson's start. Just briefly, as I know this is a big question that could take way too long to answer. |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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Russ Huber wrote: Suggestion regarding the MESTON issue: I have witnessed since the start of this post many dated articles in respected electrical trade journals. There is strong support in Steve Stephen's favor, and I assure you I am not showing Steve favoritism. Hey Russ When you get that 1892 catalog from Bill ... how 'bout you send it to Larry Hancock so everybody in the club can see it in the info section. cool? Last edited on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 06:05 am by Jeff Whitfield |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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John Trier wrote: I've noticed in all these Emerson adds or banners posted, words like "unequaled" or "Cheapest". A great deal of attention was given by Emerson in promoting their fans. If the big 3 "Emerson" ...... "General Electric" ....... and "Westinghouse" were competing for the fan market. Who won or became the most dominate?"The Meston alternating fan motor, a description of which was first published in May, 1891, probably deserves the first place." The above statement came from a 1901 lengthy article written by a former C&C engineer. He mentioned Wagners single phase hit the market around the same time with near immediate success. Herbert Finch(Emerson Electric) spoke out on early alternating current fan motor brought out by Westinghouse around 90 that was more or less a commercial flop. That would be more than likely the Philip Lange patented fan motor. The GE brushless induction fan motor was introduced in 94. The first single speed induction Westinghouse fan motor was introduced 95 circa. Dual speed in 96. Despite GE and Westinghouse being corporate giants they got a late start in the AC fan motor field, and getting established and gaining the faith of the consumer. These fans cost to much to be purchased by the average Joe in the 90s. They were purchased through the manufacturer's agencies in numbers for established businesses who could afford to buy them. This seems logical to me. Around 1895 60 hertz AC was becoming the cats meow. There were numerous AC fan motors of the early 90s that did not take off. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Jeff Whitfield wrote: Russ Huber wrote:Suggestion regarding the MESTON issue: I have witnessed since the start of this post many dated articles in respected electrical trade journals. There is strong support in Steve Stephen's favor, and I assure you I am not showing Steve favoritism. Why are you asking me to share the catalogue? It is being sent to me. Bill Hoehn is the one who went through the trouble to make copies and send it to me. Bill is the one you should consult with. I suggest you consult with him off the forum. |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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I thought Post 514 was pretty clear. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Fine. to many posts in this post to remember every detail within them. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Alexander Meston was in the capacity of superintendent and engineer since the incorporation of Emerson Electric. Around October of 92 Alexander contracted Consumption(Tuberculosis). In late March of 93 under the advice from CEO and several friends Alexander was advised to take rest to the benefit of his health by taking a trip to Florida, Jamaica, and Cuba. Alexander was accompanied on the trip by a Mr. E. J. Bagnall. After returning home around the 2nd week in April he had gained little benefit to his health despite the trip. After returning home Alexander became confined to his room and bed until his death on May 12, 1893. in 1885 Alexander and his brother Charles took residence in St. Louis. It is stated Alexander took a short course at Washington University in electrical engineering with emphasis on single phase alternating motors. It is claimed he finished the course in 1890 and ventured in manufacturing electrical apparatus in a small way associated with his brother Charles Meston. This lead to the formation of the Emerson Electric Mfg. Co. It is stated Alexander was a close student in electrical matters both at university and in the practical work in which he afterward engaged. Alexander was 26 years old. Although not strong in constitution, he was always a hard worker. Personally he was a most excellent gentleman, always kind and courteous, yet frank and outspoken with everyone. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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The 92 Meston Tripod is shown introduced to market late spring in the 92 Western Electrican with Advertisements of the fan motor to follow. No cone base Mestons to be seen in the 92 issue. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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In post 514, my error again. This is a personal gift to Russ Huber who has done so much for all of us. I should have said "feel free to share, if you want to". We still have personal ownership in this great country. The point is mute, since this catalog is in the public domain, as previously mentioned several times by different members. Adding to early Emerson management, from the personal and business directories of St. Louis; 1890 to 1893-- H. M. Finch=Salesman--Simmons Hdwe. Co. 1898 & 1899-- Herbert J. Finch=Draftsman---R.--2916 Pine 1904 & 1905--Herbert I. Finch=Asst. Supt. Emerson E. M. Co.--2030 Washington Ave.-- R. 3119 Locust. 1906 Supt. ............. Last edited on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 12:49 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Russ Huber wrote: John Trier wrote:I've noticed in all these Emerson adds or banners posted, words like "unequaled" or "Cheapest". A great deal of attention was given by Emerson in promoting their fans. If the big 3 "Emerson" ...... "General Electric" ....... and "Westinghouse" were competing for the fan market. Who won or became the most dominate?"The Meston alternating fan motor, a description of which was first published in May, 1891, probably deserves the first place." I think my highlighted portion of your response answers my question??? Ultimately, these corporate giants began to dominate sales between 1900-1910. The sheer number of GE pancake that have survived vs. ........say a PI-241 (very rare by comparison) of the same era tells me Emerson's sales or production capacities were inferior to the others. After 1910, ..... I'm not sure. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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"The Meston alternating fan motor, a description of which was first published in May, 1891, probably deserves the first place."~ Frederick Henshaw(former C&C Engineer) The statement above I find impressive. A respected former C&C engineer speaking highly of the Emerson Meston fan motor. He spoke of the Meston prior to the mention of the Wagner AC fan motor. Emerson had the edge in the 90s when there were a number of AC fan manufactures. The way I understand it there were AC fans that never made the trade Journals during that time. Emerson was a small fry business compared to GE and Westinghouse. Yet....unlike GE and Westinghouse, Emerson specialized in small motor manufacture and ........fan motors. Frederick Henshaw started his life and education in Montreal Canada. He focused on Chemistry for few years, and eventually changed to engineering with focus on the electrical field. At a young age Henshaw gained employment with the Royal Electric Co. of Montreal in the spring of 1887 as an assistant to Frederick Thomson. Frederick Thomson was none other than the brother to...................Elihu Thomson. Royal Electric Co. made their own product along with Thomson-Houston apparatus. Henshaw it APPEARS was credited with designing and the construction of the first alternating current dynamo in Montreal. In Spring of 89 Henshaw left the Royal Electric Co. to join the C & C Electric Motor Co. in NY Attached Image (viewed 1580 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 04:25 pm by Russ Huber |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Great stuff!! So GE and Westinghouse were playing catch up to the great innovations pioneered by Emerson? I wonder who were the greatest minds in the electric motor, electrical innovation and early electrical development in order. Tesla, A. Meston, Charles Meston?? Does Tesla head the list? A. Meston's life was cut short and I wonder how he would have stacked up to Tesla? The Emerson photo showing the cone base Meston has 25 employee's. Rather small if that was the extent of their company. Russ Huber wrote: "The Meston alternating fan motor, a description of which was first published in May, 1891, probably deserves the first place."~ Frederick Henshaw(former C&C Engineer) |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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Add GE's Steinmetz to the list of early greats. |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: Add GE's Steinmetz to the list of early greats. Till right now, I've never heard of Steinmetz (other than Dale Steinmetz my family doctor). Shown here as the little scrawny guy, with Tesla and a young Albert Einstein. Cool. Paste from Wiki. Charles Proteus Steinmetz (April 9, 1865 – October 26, 1923) was a mathematician andelectrical engineer. He fostered the development of alternating current that made possible the expansion of the electric power industry in the United States, formulating mathematical theories for engineers. He made ground-breaking discoveries in the understanding ofhysteresis that enabled engineers to design better electromagnetic apparatus equipmentincluding especially electric motors for use in industry Attached Image (viewed 1870 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 08:03 pm by John Trier |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: Add GE's Steinmetz to the list of early greats. Travesty!!!!! Charles and Alexander Meston does not exist in Wikipedia. Here is your chance Russ and Bill. We need to write a wikipedia article and biography of the Meston Brothers. Did they not have the stature of the other electrical pioneers? |
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Steve Cunningham Administrator
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Steinmetz was a very interesting man. I asked Lawrence Erickson once how GE got around Tesla's and Hassler's Patents. He said GE used Steinmetz's Patents. I bet every Patent he had belonged to GE. It could be that GE worked an arrangement with Westinghouse over Patent exchanges. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Forget production numbers as far as Emerson is concerned. They never kept any, at least in the early years. Ron's survey is our only source to approximate those figures. In those days Emerson was interested in development, constant improvement and QUALITY, not QUANTITY! |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Couldn't resist spending a few minutes looking at Emerson badges. So far, I found; There is only 1 Trojan badge. The DC badges all match the corresponding AC badges for the same types. I found 9 "normal" round badges. There are at least 23 distinct Northwind badges, not counting the various voltages as being different. They were changed each year, and Emerson never used E & I in their yearly rotation. The Emerson Junior, and B Junior include the info normally found on the motor tags and therefore are too numerous to count, for me. These include the long narrow "badges". I'm not into the Seabreeze and newer fans, but can probably research them through the catalogs. Also I ignored color variations, because that would be almost endless. Emerson advertised they would paint your fans any color you wanted if you were a "good customer" and ordered at least 50. Who is going to post pictures of all? Has it already been done? No interest? |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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John Trier wrote: Shown here as the little scrawny guy, with Tesla and a young Albert Einstein. Cool. There is not a consensus that that is Tesla. http://edisontechcenter.org/CharlesProteusSteinmetz.html Attached Image (viewed 1605 times): |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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Steve Cunningham wrote: Add GE's Steinmetz to the list of early greats. Ol' Chuckles had quite the imagination when it came to AC circuit analysis.  Attached Image (viewed 1588 times): |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Jim Kovar wrote: John Trier wrote:Jim.... I saw that in the web site. They actually said it was likely not Tesla. How about a young Adolf Hitler. Here is another cool photo from that site with Steinmetz and Edison.Shown here as the little scrawny guy, with Tesla and a young Albert Einstein. Cool. Attached Image (viewed 1545 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Tesla stood 6' 2" tall. Einstein was 5' 9" tall. If you can examine the few images of Tesla, when sporting a mustache it spanned the full distance of his upper lip. Knowing Tesla's fanatical behavior, no doubt his mustache was trimmed just right with a ruler....fact Jack. Attached Image (viewed 1581 times): Last edited on Sun Aug 10th, 2014 09:07 pm by Russ Huber |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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John Trier wrote: Jim.... I saw that in the web site. They actually said it was likely not Tesla. How about a young Adolf Hitler. John, after an extensive inter-web search,... ...there's two Charleys in that above photo. Attached Image (viewed 1521 times): Last edited on Sun Aug 10th, 2014 09:53 pm by Jim Kovar |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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Ain't Albert, either... That's Fr. Guido Sarducci. Short man in front ain't Steinmetz, either...  It's Robert Reich. Last edited on Tue Sep 12th, 2017 01:27 am by Jim Kovar |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Time to get serious---with trepidation! A friend and AFCA member just called and asked me a Meston question for which I have no answer. This is a perfect chance for someone, especially an Electrical Engineer or Document Expert to show off! I'll preface this by saying that I don't remember ever having seen a tripod Meston (either IVS or HS) :) or Emerson without cycles (Alts. Per. Min.). All of the Meston IVS's that I remember were the AA Series. This gentleman's Meston (IVS), is an A Series, 50 volt, but has absolutely no cycles listed. Why not? Does the A Series mean something that negates the need for cycles? We're both waiting anxiously for an answer. I suggested he post this, but he refused and said. "You have the fun", or something like that. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Come on, let's at least hear from some of the other Series A Meston owners. Do your motors have cycles listed? I have not found this group to be so shy, before. This is the first time it dawned on me that positive responses take hours, days, weeks or never do come through, but the negative ones arrive with the speed of lightning. :) |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: This gentleman's Meston (IVS), is an A Series, 50 volt, but has absolutely no cycles listed. Why not? Does the A Series mean something that negates the need for cycles?So far no mention of details such as series letters and winds in the books. Attached Image (viewed 1508 times): Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 01:55 am by Russ Huber |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Thanks for the reply Russ, and your picture is of my friends fan. I know you're not shy! This is going to force me deeper into my literature. I hope you're able to sleep tonight, despite your waiting in anticipation for your 1892 Emerson Catalogue tomorrow. :) Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 03:01 am by Bill Hoehn |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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Russ: If you have the photos of the end bells would you post here or send to me at budepie@charter.net -- THANKS ( For the Emerson Survey) Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 03:23 am by Ron Jeter |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, Just got a call pointing out a second Series A Meston is listed as post 125 by your friend Steve S. Therefore it seems reasonable that none of the A Series has cycles listed. Also noticed that neither one has Meston on the tags, so they must really be Emersons with the wrong end bells! :) Ron, you don't need pictures---they're ALL MESTONS! Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 03:28 am by Bill Hoehn |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Jan. of 93 the Western Electrician reports the Electrical Appliance Company has installed 700 Meston motors in 92. Don't forget the Emerson Meston Manufacture of 91 to add to the 92 700 Meston motor figure. Check your early Meston fan motor serials from the A series without alternations mentioned. Edit: It is stated the 700 motors were all installed during the summer of 92. That would strongly support Meston fan motors. Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 05:13 am by Russ Huber |
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Ron Jeter Guest
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Bill: Yes, I need to see end bells. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, When you say the '91 Meston, do you mean the cone base Mestons? If so, there is no evidence of a tag or "serial" number. The first ones didn't even have a "style, type or variety" number---were they numbered? I'll be sure to tell you when I find the first one.:) Ron, I'm discussing only Mestons through the Series A & AA now, therefore pictures are not necessary. If you remember, I suggested to you that we need more detail on all the Mestons to learn more. I have contacted all the Meston owners I know and received what they have, but I don't have access to your sources, and don't want to. When Jim started this survey, he promised me this is confidential (the owners names) and will not be shared with anyone. That is one reason Warren agreed to me giving all of his data also. Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 05:51 am by Bill Hoehn |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Steve S.,Bill, I have presented my opinions the best that I could and have not counted the times I used a word, etc. My opinions are based on a few but important statements in Emerson catalogs about how they designate their Meston and Induction fan motors and the differences between them. I don't intend to come up with new ways to persuade anyone on my points but do feel my points are well documented and accurate. If I feel a need to reply to additional posts with information that I feel is not correct I will use my same arguments again as long as I am convinced that they are valid. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Bold as my statement may be, I am confident the cone base had a motor tag. The tag would of at least mentioned the specific voltage it ran on. And the facts are, you can't state it didn't have a motor tag with a serial. So.......have faith until I show you one. Attached Image (viewed 1478 times): |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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Bill, this thread has been very informative. Thanks so much for your contributions. Sure, there has been many posts from some that have chewed the same fat many times over, but overall, a very interesting (though lengthy) thread. Also a few posts just a bit off topic ( ).Bill Hoehn wrote: Time to get serious---with trepidation! OK, let's get serious... Last year, I started a thread titled, "Did Emerson Make Meston Blades in 1892?" Bill, please take a look at the first four posts in the below link thread so as to understand the reason for my questions. http://afcaforum.com/view_topic.php?id=26681 Within your Emerson manufacturing records, Bill, is there any evidence that Emerson Electric Mfg. made fan blades for their '92 Meston fans? Or were they outsourced. Or perhaps the components (wings and hubs) outsourced and then assembled at Emerson? Do you have any records of what manufacturing machinery they had in '92? Did they have a punch press capable of punching out blade wings (and armature laminations for that matter)? Did they have a foundry capable of casting blade hubs (as well as motor parts such as iron fields and bases, and bronze end bells)? Anything you can offer, whether info from Emerson records or just speculation/opinion on the matter of Meston blades of '92 would be much appreciated! Attached Image (viewed 1519 times): Last edited on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 12:37 am by Jim Kovar |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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Jim Kovar wrote: ... cast... ...iron fields... After reading my above post, it occurred to me, Mestons, being AC motors would have stacked field laminations. I'd love to double check my Mestons just to make sure, but there's just one probem with that. No Mestons!  |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Jim Kovar wrote: Jim Kovar wrote:... cast... ...iron fields... Mr. Kovar Staying on subject here... The AFCA needs to invest in a " Wayback Machine " It would solve a lot of issues here... I know they make them because I was watching the Rocky and Bullwinkle show and they used one... JMHO geo... ;) Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 06:41 pm by George Durbin |
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Jim Kovar AFCA Member
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George Durbin wrote: The AFCA needs to invest in a " Wayback Machine " It would solve a lot of issues here... I know they make them because I was watching the Rocky and Bullwinkle show and they used one... JMHO Make them?... Who'd know that better than you, Rocky? Attached Image (viewed 1482 times): Last edited on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 12:41 am by Jim Kovar |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, I was speaking facetiously about the Meston motor tags. I only have one Bi-polar motor for which I can find no tag or identification. Jim, I'm shocked and knew nothing of your thread of Mar 26th 2013. I wish I had, because it is very interesting and informative. I never realized before your thread that manufacturers referred to what I call a blade, as "the fan". Never saw a silver one either. I never claim any tech skills---don't even know how to "jump a forum". I believe I posted this before but it's more significant after your questions. From the Emerson 1893 catalog page 6; My (....)'s---Bill "THE FAN (blade to me!).---We have this year made an important improvement in Fans. It has hitherto been the practice to make (by whom--- they don't say if they did, or did not make them) light Fan Hubs of brass, which is easily bent out of shape, which will cause the Fan to run out of balance, making a disagreeable, jarring sound and shaking the entire motor. We make (fact Jack :), a Fan Hub of such material (I assume cast iron) that it will be practically impossible to bend it out of shape or get it out of balance. We believe this improvement will be greatly appreciated." This is not definitive, but shows Emerson's attention to constant improvement unlike other manufacturers who shall remain nameless. :) Someone wondered whether the Trojan and Meston blades are interchangeable. I checked 7 different 12" original Trojan blades and they all measure 3 7/8 " at there widest (both 4 & 6 wing). The original Meston blades vary from 3 1/2 to 3 7/8 ". I'm sure people have used them, to replace, either way. Both the 6 pole brush (one facing each end) series AA Meston, and the 4 pole, with start winding, F I- 1 Meston have multiple stator laminations. I just looked! Also "Our Armature is of special laminated iron and has no wire; which means impossible to burn out, impossible to ground, impossible to give trouble; and we claim this radical departure in motor construction to be largely instrumental in solving the problem of a practical Fan Motor for the alternating current." When you see the 1892 catalog, I'll let you decide if Emerson had presses and a foundry! Found a lot more today, but enough is enough , for now. George, Who needs a Wayback Machine, when a few of us are! |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Russ, What's taking so long? I just checked and see your 1892 Emerson catalog was delivered at 6:55 A M 8/11/2014. Should I have the USPS return it? :) |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: Russ, Go Easy Bill, please. Mail is not delivered to the home here. I have a box at the post office. Still slow from the surgery. I did get it today and once again thank you very much. I have had requests to get copies of the catalogue before I even had it in my hand. That did not jive with me. And, the best way to go about getting Russ to donate copies of the catalogue to the AFCA website, is to let Russ alone to donate copies to the AFCA. That works best with Russ. Facts....there are 78-79 pages in that catalogue, and only one page donated to the improved cone base Meston models #2001 and #2002. There is only one image of a fan motor and it looks identical to the 91 cone base image. So for those chomping at the bit to see the catalogue for the 92 Meston fan motors, sorry. |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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This thread has been quiet way too long, so I must throw out a few Emerson "tidbits". From Technical Data No 1394-A July 1, 1912; "Obsolete Types. It was formerly a practice of this company to furnish desk fans with switches marked "Off," "2," "1," in the order named. Point "2" indicated the medium speed, point "1" the fast speed. This plan was followed in all types of Emerson desk fans from 310 to 11948, inclusive, and in Trojan types from 5010 to 51948, inclusive. 1911 Types. The switches of 3 speed desk fans, types 14644, 14666 and 53644, catalogued for the season of 1911, were marked as follows: "Off," "1," "2," "3," in the order named. Point "1" indicated the high speed, point "2" the medium speed, and point "3" the slow speed. At the time these types were put out, it was believed that users would allow the switch-handle to rest momentarily on the point marked "1," where the motor had its maximum starting power, and the motor would thus start under the most favorable conditions. It develops, however, that motor users are in the habit of throwing the switch-handle as far as possible to the right in order to obtain the maximum speed from the motor. With the markings used in 1911, some customers were dissatisfied with the speed and amount of breeze thrown, for the reason that they expected the maximum volume of air with the switch- handle on point "3," and did not notice that higher speeds were to be procured on points "1" and "2." 1912 Types. For 1912 the markings on the base are as follows: "Off," "3," "2," "1," in the order named. point "1" will continue to indicate the fast speed, point "2" the medium speed, and point "3" the slow speed." No. 1394-B; "This sheet is issued for the information and guidance of the Sales Department. Particular attention is called to the fact that types 11644 and 53644, and some of the new 1912, three speed models, have already been made with the switches marked in accordance with the 1911 practice, and it will not always be possible to tell from the type number just which system of marking was employed. However, on all types the point marked "1" will indicate the high speed, the point marked "2" will indicate the medium speed, and the point marked "3" will always show the slow speed. These numbers should, therefore, be referred to in correspondence, as they will correctly show the results to be obtained with the switch on each point" Bill's comment: THIS IS ONE EXAMPLE THAT EVEN EMERSON COULD AND DID SCREW THINGS UP! |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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14644. Stamped speed numbers as found Attached Image (viewed 1738 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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14644 with embossed speed indicators. Attached Image (viewed 1754 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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14644 with later serial. Notice 3-2-1 Attached Image (viewed 1747 times): |
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David Foster AFCA Member
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My 14644 is like the second picture you posted, Russ. Thanks for all the great work and research you do. And thanks to Bill and Steve for all of their great work and research. I just love reading and learning all of this stuff. |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Russ, your 14644 with stamped numbers can't be but, obviously it is... How did it come to be? Emerson seems to have used embossed speed numbers right into at least early 1920 on the 26 and 27xxx series. Both of my 14 and 19644 have embossed numbers. The white or silvery speed markings are not typical Emerson gold markings. Very unusual. Has anyone else seen an earlier fan like Russ's with stamped markings? Maybe it was a later replacement base and made at the same time as when Emerson remade the pattern for the Emerson Induction fan motor with MESTON cast on the front bell |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Well now! Finally fans new enough that I can contribute to and not merely contribute sage advice...My 14644 has off-1-2-3... 1 is slow and three is high... Attached Image (viewed 1764 times): |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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2 Attached Image (viewed 1753 times): |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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I will post my tag info if someone wants to see what order the speeds changed around? Attached Image (viewed 1711 times): |
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David Foster AFCA Member
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Steve, I have a question regarding Stephan's motors from posts #487 and 494. Post 487 shows two motors side by side. Post 494 shows the motor tag for the red motor. May I see a picture of the motor tag from the silver fan? Thanks Last edited on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 06:09 am by David Foster |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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David Foster wrote: Steve,I have wondered about the motor tag being screwed on instead of the usual rivets. Is the tag original to the motor? For comparison purposes I would be hesitant to compare. Photo from Stefan Osdene Attached Image (viewed 1738 times): Last edited on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 06:27 am by Steve Stephens |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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George, Someone switched your wires. Emerson screwed them up first, but high was always "1" when they left the factory! Switched wires?---George?---HMMM--- Thanks for letting us all in on YOUR history! :) |
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George Durbin AFCA Member
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Hahah!Bill you are sharp! Tom Newcity rewound the switch for me and we kinda discussed the wiring and did make "1" the slow speed!! So I have a Frankenfan of sorts... :) Geo... |
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David Foster AFCA Member
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Well, George, At least it was done on purpose. Even if it is wrong |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Surprised no one has posted the required pictures of both versions of the 53644 yet! SURPRISE; It is always hot and humid in St. Louis in August. You just might have heard it is even hotter now in Ferguson, the World Headquarters of Emerson, and the home of Bob Bretch, the former owner of ACME Electric. To all members who would like to send gift fans for the cause, especially pre 1906 Emersons, I will gladly accept them and promise to take good care of them! :) Mestons are also acceptable, since they are all Emersons too! Last edited on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 01:19 pm by Bill Hoehn |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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Emerson Update---Hand Starts! From: Technical Data---No. 1462. July 1, 1912. "Index to type Numbers The single phase motors made by this company which were known as the brush and commutator types were made prior to 1905 as follows: Type FI 4---60 cycles 1/2 hp. (MINE---BILL) " FI 5---60 " 3/4 " " FI 6---60 " 1 " " FI 7---60 " 1 1/2 " " FI 8---60 " 2 " " FI 9---60 " 2 1/2 " " EI 4---133 " 1/2 " " EI 5---133 " 3/4 " " EI 6---133 " 1 " These types were made with wound armatures which were used in series with field when motor was starting, but were disconnected and short circuited at the commutator after motor reached speed. Such motors were started by a hand-operated starting lever. These types were withdrawn from the market in 1905 by reason of the demand for automatic starting types." |
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Bill Hoehn AFCA Member
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See my thread died last night and even lost a star as it expired. May it R.I.P. I'm surprised and disappointed that there is so little interest in Emerson minutia. I planned a lot more, but with the lack of response to so many questions, I'll be able to get back to a normal life. Thanks to all of the fun, pleasant and cooperative folks who responded and all of the visits, phone calls and PMs that resulted from this. It was fun while it lasted, but you know what talking to yourself usually indicates. Lack of response will not have any personal significance.. |
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John Trier AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: See my thread died last night and even lost a star as it expired. Not so fast Bill ....... With the hanging Meston issue settled (wink), it's hard for someone like me to say anything relevant. I have an interest in the "men" of Emerson. The Meston brothers, and the others....... I cannot find a lot of information on the "Meston's". The Emerson historical section of their own web site is lacking of a lot of information ...... A wikipedia article on the Meston's does not exist which should be remedied by this group. If we don't write it, who will? There is a Facebook Emerson page and I added a comment to one of their historical photos. |
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Larry Hancock Guest
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Also don't forget I am curious about when Emerson was on Olive Street... Attached Image (viewed 1657 times): |
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Tom Dreesen AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: See my thread died last night and even lost a star as it expired. Bill, There is plenty of interest in Emerson trivia. However, you would be best served by starting a new thread when you change topics. I for one would be interested if you have any Emerson documentation on the *plus 20* date code apparently instigated in 1921. From Bill Kreiner in an old post: Ooh, you still refuse to believe it, eh, Russ? A retired (sadly now deceased) [highlight= #FFFF88]Emerson engineer who worked out of New York and lived in my neighborhood and dated my widowed aunt told me this trick when he saw my small [highlight= #FFFF88]Emerson collection of the time. He said the year [highlight= #88FF88]code was for purposes of warrantee and showed the year the fan shipped from the factory. Owing to various delays some tags printed in one year but not fitted to fans till the next year were over-stamped with the new year's [highlight= #88FFFF]date [highlight= #88FF88]code. But do start a new thread. It will be easier to find in forum searches. Last edited on Fri Aug 15th, 2014 07:09 pm by Tom Dreesen |
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Jeff Whitfield AFCA Member
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The nickel-banded Meston with 16,000 alts (in post 572) is thinner than the nickel-banded Meston (Emerson?) with 7200 alts.Besides the differences in frequency, I always thought the differences in thickness was interesting. Don't know why they did it. Last edited on Fri Aug 15th, 2014 08:46 pm by Jeff Whitfield |
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Steve Stephens Guest
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Do you remember seeing the ultra thin motor Emerson 12" Type 810 (below) or stick mount Type 710 at Fanfair in St. Louis in 2013? It's a 16000 Alts motor. Must be the way those 133 cycle motors need to be designed for that frequency; a thinner motor than for 60 cycles. Which brings me up to something I have wondered about: For the 1898-1901 Emerson tripod fan motors, I have never seen an EI-1 or 2 for 133 cycles (16,000 alts). Do any exist and does anyone have a photo of the motor showing its thickness? I would think it would be narrower than the standard FI-1 or 2 motors. Attached Image (viewed 1649 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Bill Hoehn wrote: See my thread died last night and even lost a star as it expired. Hey Bill, people have lives to lead. Some of us are getting older and retire, and some of us are slowly getting back on track from health and personal issues....etc. Some just pop on the web site here and there. Some have knowledge but poor social and typing skills. Please don't lose faith so fast. It also has to be taken into consideration there are members who are very helpful to aid another over the phone, yet they have very little if any computer skills. Thus Bill, there are a number who appreciate reading what is posted here, but are not able to reciprocrate. Or for that matter......afraid to post. |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Emerson Trivia.... Did you know the ratchet case oscillator wheel had a safety device built in? The trade journals advertised this feature and it is mentioned in the patent. Attached Image (viewed 1604 times): Last edited on Sat Aug 16th, 2014 02:07 am by Russ Huber |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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"A further object of our invention is to provide a form of automatically operable adjusting mechanism which shall operate as a safety device by automatically limiting the degree of oscillation of the fan when its movement is impeded by an object interposed in its path." Attached Image (viewed 1621 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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Left to right....21645....(absent 21646).....21666.....21648. Emerson's type models introducing the ratchet case(ball detent is fan collector slang) oscillator wheel. Attached Image (viewed 1620 times): |
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Russ Huber AFCA Member
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