AFCA Forums Home

 Moderated by: Steve Cunningham, Stan Adams, Rod Rogers  
AuthorPost
Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
This will be a year long project...hopefully sooner.  I will be posting some preliminary pictures later on today.  The goal is to take an already broken mini R&M...modify it for casting into ALL bronze.  Along with that...an actual 12 inch strut will be used to model into a smaller version for the mini lollipop.  I will also be casting the hub for those interested in using it for their toy motors to convert into a fan.

Last edited on Thu Jan 7th, 2021 07:11 pm by Louis Luu

Sean Campbell
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jul 6th, 2018
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana USA
Status: 
Offline
That sounds awesome!

Stephen Chew
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Feb 7th, 2014
Location: Bridgeton, Missouri USA
Status: 
Offline
:clap:Sounds great Louis. :clap:

Last edited on Fri Jan 8th, 2021 12:12 am by Stephen Chew

William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Kula, Maui, Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
I'll be following this project with interest. Are you using the brush motor 8" R&M? I think that one will have the torque necessary to overcome the friction of the bearings and sliding contacts....much better than a simple induction motor.
Just my opinion.
Cheers,
Bill

Russ Huber
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: Southwest, Wisconsin USA
Status: 
Offline






Last edited on Fri Jan 8th, 2021 02:33 am by Russ Huber

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
The plan is to use a mini 8 inch R&M open commutator as the starting point. I am borrowing from the idea from Mike Petree. I do like the idea of owning a mini lollipop but will incorporate some new features. I will model the feet extension using original 12 inch lollipop and the spring mechanism as well. Along with that...I will be using the original 12 inch struts...I like the curvatures and make it fit the 8 inch. This will be done by making a mold of the original then casting in polymer...easier to sand and size with blade....basically reduce all the features to fit aesthetically the 8 inch model. Both the top and bottom will be cast in bronze. The struts holder will be modified where no screws/clips will be needed just like the original 8 inch....basically a bracket to hold the squared back cage. The struts will also be moved to the position just like the 12 inch mounting.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
A special thanks to Jim Humphrey for selling his mini R&M open commutator. I offered $380 plus shipping. He countered with $300 shipped. How the heck does that work? Jim...thank you for being nice.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Here is the mini lollipop Mike Petree made...I will be borrowing some ideas as a starting point.








Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Here is the fan Jim Humphrey sold me.










Russ Huber
AFCA Member


Joined: Mon Nov 14th, 2005
Location: Southwest, Wisconsin USA
Status: 
Offline
Mini Lollipop - Pre-1950 (Antique) - Antique Fan Collectors Association - AFCA Forums



Miniature Robbins and Myers Lollipop antique electric fan - YouTube

Last edited on Fri Jan 8th, 2021 02:26 am by Russ Huber

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Jim could not figure out why the cage was half steel/brass.  Mystery solve during taking the fan apart.  The fan was dropped at somepoint and damaged.  I remove the weld/braze.  Today, I blistered the paint and soak in Jasco to remove any stubborn paint and grease.  Need to be real clean so I can do some bondo/priming work...smooth it out with some "flat enamel paint"...thank you Chris Campbell...never knew there was such a thing.  This will help with the mold release. 










Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
The tag will be casted...I like the features of the mini flag. After paint is remove...I need to grind some areas on the fan...casting imperfections. Feets will then be molded and added. The middle column will need to be filled leaving a cylinder tube so a oscillating mechanism can be dropped in there....that is the plan.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I will need Mike Petree help with the column oscillating mechanism. William Dunlap...I will need your help with making cage...you do excellent cage work.

William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Kula, Maui, Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
Great, I have stock on hand ready to help.Cheers,
Bill

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
The plan is to make a couple as kits...and let people drop in their motor.

Last edited on Fri Jan 8th, 2021 02:40 am by Louis Luu

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline


Russ Huber wrote: Mini Lollipop - Pre-1950 (Antique) - Antique Fan Collectors Association - AFCA Forums



Miniature Robbins and Myers Lollipop antique electric fan - YouTube

William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Kula, Maui, Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
I wanted to mention something I noticed regarding the larger models. The stem of the motor is dramatically moved toward the blade in order to balance the motor, blade and cage assembly on top of the base. This would really help in lowering friction and allowing freer movement. The fan above seems to move pretty slowly and seems to also be running at top speed. Just a thought. If it was better balanced, it could likely rotate easily at lower speeds. Barring that, a weight could be added to the back of the fan to help with balance.
Cheers,
Bill

Last edited on Fri Jan 8th, 2021 03:08 am by William Dunlap

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I will need to play around with the positioning.  I am also pondering on making a vane oscillator...should not require much additional work.

William Dunlap wrote: I wanted to mention something I noticed regarding the larger models. The stem of the motor is dramatically moved toward the blade in order to balance the motor, blade and cage assembly on top of the base. This would really help in lowering friction and allowing freer movement. The fan above seems to move pretty slowly and seems to also be running at top speed. Just a thought. If it was better balanced, it could likely rotate easily at lower speeds.
Cheers,
Bill

Richard Daugird
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Sep 12th, 2017
Location: Texas City, Between Hou. & Galveston, Texas USA
Status: 
Offline
I am happy to contribute to this project. 8" Vane would be really cool too!

Brad Chaney
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Mar 24th, 2009
Location: Washington USA
Status: 
Offline
Incredible work!   :clap: :clap: :clap:

Daniel OToole
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Mon Jun 3rd, 2013
Location: RED OAK, Texas USA
Status: 
Offline
I'm sure it will look great..hope I can get one

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I got some more done and will post pictures tomorrow.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I do have a question.  I have another mini R&M...stem is different and I would like to cast the motor housing and the base in bronze.  Does anyone know how to move the little stub from the motor...I already remove the set screw.  Does it pop right out or do your twist left...loose?  Always wanted one mini R&M open commutator all bronze...just like the one Steven Dempsey has but all bronze...no plating.



Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Work from yesterday.  I welcome input.  Thanks.















Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Some work done this morning.





















Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Once everything is mocked up...then casting. Will be sold as kit. Simply drop in stator and rotor.

Richard Daugird
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Sep 12th, 2017
Location: Texas City, Between Hou. & Galveston, Texas USA
Status: 
Offline
It's coming along.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I will take apart my 12 inch lollipop and take a look at the stem mechanism and see what else needs to be fabricated. I'm thinking a new switch with resistor in place of nichrome wire instead.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Apparently...there is two different strut styles.  Also...Does anyone know how to remove the stick from the pendulum.  I did a rough mock up of what I want to do.  Once I cast this in polymer...it will be easier to cut and reduce the size to fit the mini lollipop.  The width will also be reduce.  The goal is to cut the straight part of the strut and maintain the curvature.  The mounting end will be modify so no screws/clips will be needed to mount the cage.


















Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I will open up my 12 inch and see what other parts need to be fabricated.  I found some parts online and ordered that should help cut back on the fabrication process.  Here is the stuff for the ring commutator.  A bearing to help it rotate and a slip ring commutator.  I just need to order the rod...will do that later.






Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Lollipop ring commutator setup.






Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Please look over and give me feedback.  So far...the only thing that would need to be fabricated is the phenolic brush holder and column screw.  The bearing, ring commutator can be source.  I have already bought the ring commutator.  The base of the fan will need to be widen to 16 mm and filled.  Once all this is done...than the struts can be modified.




William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Kula, Maui, Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
Just a thought. If your design does not allow for 360 degree rotation, then you don't really need a ring commutator. You just need a hollow shaft for the wires to run down. You could even run them outside like on an ordinary oscillator. I also have some ideas on how to reduce friction which is going to be important since it looks as though the head will be off balance toward the blade and cage putting some side loading on the bearings.
Cheers

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I've tried to compensate for friction by using two bearings...hopefully this will help. The motor is light enough...should not be a problem. I really want 360 rotation. I looked at the original 12 inch Lollipop...the back end was much heavier than the front. Thanks for the input William.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline

Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2021 07:27 pm by Louis Luu

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline

Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2021 07:28 pm by Louis Luu

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
OK...this brush holder will work and save a whole lot of time fabricating the phenolic.  Cross out the brush holder.  This will be mounted upside down on the bottom....next to the commutator.  Now just the column screw...McMaster has one I think...just needs a little modification.




Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
William...what is your idea on reducing the friction?  I like to hear.

William Dunlap wrote: Just a thought. If your design does not allow for 360 degree rotation, then you don't really need a ring commutator. You just need a hollow shaft for the wires to run down. You could even run them outside like on an ordinary oscillator. I also have some ideas on how to reduce friction which is going to be important since it looks as though the head will be off balance toward the blade and cage putting some side loading on the bearings.
Cheers

William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Kula, Maui, Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
Louis,
The bearings are ball bearings which are meant to be used with a radial load. In the configuration you intend, the bearings will be in both radial and axial loads. Not uncommon...most bearings take loads from more than one direction, but it can add friction and slow things down.
The end of the shaft can be supported by a radial bearing, and the upper side can be supported by the ball and race type you're using. So the weight of the motor assembly is supported by the thrust bearing, relieving the axial load from the ball and race.
In recent projects requiring very low friction, I experimented with various combinations of bearings until I found the right set up. 
Instead of a thrust bearing for the bottom, you could also use just a single ball bearing perfectly centered to take the weight off the upper bearing.
All this might be unnecessary ....just something to think about if you find you can't get it to work the way you want.
I know I struggled with the table vane oscillator until I found the right bearing to use. Still the thing won't work right unless it is perfectly level and the fan is perfectly balanced on the table.
Also, if you have this thing rotating 360 degrees, being off balance may cause it to tip over if it goes too fast. I think it was Kim Frank that made one and he ended up attaching a counter weight to the back so it could rotate properly.
All good fun at the end of the day. 
Cheers,
Bill

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Thanks William...I will look into the bearing types. Hopefully, Amazon has them readily available.
I will add some feet to the base and make sure it is solid and heavy around the base.  A new switch with half wave diode will be fabricated to tame the speed of the fan.


Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2021 06:39 am by Louis Luu

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Found it...Amazon carries both types of bearing. I think ultimately a phenolic brush will need to be fabricated. I do plan on cutting a square window in the base of the column...just like the lollipop where brush is mounted. Now to convince someone to make a customize badge to cover the window with a flag emblem...I like the R&M flag emblem. I'm thinking of making one and casting it for the window. This will indeed be almost the same as the 12 inch Lollipop/Vane all casted in Bronze. The commuter brush should arrive in about a month...then I order the bearings from Amazon. This will give me time to plug some holes...prime...sand...and YES...work on the Kidney gearbox and get it done.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Mini lollipop hub...modeled after the 12 inch.




Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Remove midsection to make room for the ring commutator and rotor shaft.  The midsection will be enlarge to align with the top out diameter of the motor.





Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Project has not been abandoned...just got sidetrack with casting badges and geissler rotators parts...my main hobby. I did sourced some more parts to minimize the fabrication for the stem section. I got the commutators and currently sourcing the bearing for the column.

I will be making the flag emblem shortly. It will be done in lost wax to pick up the minute details of the rope section area.

Last edited on Thu Jul 1st, 2021 04:07 am by Louis Luu

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I got the right size ring commutator.  They are really nice quality from Germany.  I will be ordering the bearing parts from McMaster.  Once that comes in, I will finish the stem section and begin making the mold.  The 12" Lollipop struts is ready for molding.  I will make extra and use some of them for designing the struts for the 8" mini-Lollipop.  I've decided the motor also needs a fist knuckle added onto the motor to carry the fan around.  I will be making that as well.



Last edited on Sun Jul 4th, 2021 04:29 am by Louis Luu

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I ordered some bearings from Amazon and McMaster and will test them out.  If they don't work, I would need to cast the thee parts for the bearing.  Casting them would minimize machining from scratch.  The bearing parts would need to be cast in stainless steel.



Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I got around to opening up a vane oscillator.  Both the R&M lollipop and vane oscillator used "Angular Contact" bearings.  One on top and one on bottom facing inwards.  The bearings I ordered should work.

Last edited on Wed Jul 7th, 2021 05:45 am by Louis Luu

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
All the parts were sourced.  The angular contact bearing was sourced from Amazon and the rest of the hardware was sourced from Ace Hardware.  The only piece that needs to be cast is the support column...mid section.  No machining needed!  And it fits within the column.

The screw rod is hollow allowing the wire to run from top of motor to the commutator on end.  Very quiet.









Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I'll be heading down to Ace tomorrow to snatch boxes and boxes of hardware and ordering more bearings to stash.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
The Angular Bearing in that size with the correct inner and outer diameter was a pain to find....searched all over.  Even McMaster did not have them.  Took me two days taking apart the gear assembly off the lollipop and vane and running to Ace...spent literally hours searching for the correct parts and size.  Then came home and bought what I thought was the correct gears.  It finally arrived today and works beautifully.  It fits and is correct.  No machining!

George Durbin
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Nov 2nd, 2012
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Wow!

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Thank you William.  You were right.  After studying the original lollipop and vane oscillator.  The weight was distributed by having angular contact bearing to distribute the weight.  Both the bottom and the top had angular bearing facing towards each other.  Using radial and thrust bearing would have work...but cumbersome.  Angular bearing solves this problem by distributing the force in both the x and y axis of rotation....resulting in an "angular" force.

William Dunlap wrote: Louis,
The bearings are ball bearings which are meant to be used with a radial load. In the configuration you intend, the bearings will be in both radial and axial loads. Not uncommon...most bearings take loads from more than one direction, but it can add friction and slow things down.
The end of the shaft can be supported by a radial bearing, and the upper side can be supported by the ball and race type you're using. So the weight of the motor assembly is supported by the thrust bearing, relieving the axial load from the ball and race.
In recent projects requiring very low friction, I experimented with various combinations of bearings until I found the right set up. 
Instead of a thrust bearing for the bottom, you could also use just a single ball bearing perfectly centered to take the weight off the upper bearing.
All this might be unnecessary ....just something to think about if you find you can't get it to work the way you want.
I know I struggled with the table vane oscillator until I found the right bearing to use. Still the thing won't work right unless it is perfectly level and the fan is perfectly balanced on the table.
Also, if you have this thing rotating 360 degrees, being off balance may cause it to tip over if it goes too fast. I think it was Kim Frank that made one and he ended up attaching a counter weight to the back so it could rotate properly.
All good fun at the end of the day. 
Cheers,
Bill


Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Center of gravity will be moved towards the bottom by making the bottom portion more heavy than the top and feets will be added to the base to widen. All this will be used to prevent tipping over.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Got done designing the middle stem section which includes the commutator holder, bearing assembly, brush contact.  Still need to design the brush holder...need to drop by ACE and see what readily available brush holders there are and go from there.  The only thing left is the Flag emblem on the cage, tag cover for the middle section and struts.



The left is the commutator holder...slips right into the commutator and allows wires to go through to hook up motor to commutator.




The middle is the column to hold the bearing assembly.




The right is the bearing assembly for the "angular contact bearing" one on top and one on bottom which I have already sourced.



Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I'll be adding the feet next to the base...almost there.  Got the column bearing, commutator holder, brush holder.




Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Feet added to base.  Only thing left is the struts.



William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Kula, Maui, Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
:clap: :up:

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I finally solved the brush contact with the commutator. The original lollipop and vane used carbon brush contact and were cumbersome. I looked around the house and notice my 360 oscillating Martinot just had brass contact just like the old fashion Edison and toy motors....much easier to design. Only thing left is the struts...I will start taking a whole bunch of picture and do some more CAD. CAD makes designing easy but not perfect. I can get it printed and do minor fixes before making the mold.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
William, I had a question. Do you think a variable switch would work on this thing?

William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Kula, Maui, Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
This is a brushed motor, right? If you're talking about the common pulse width modulator that is sometimes used to control speeds on fans, then yes they can work. My understanding is that these come with simple three speed switches with resistance wire elements which are dead simple and easy to work on.
Cheers,
Bill

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Thanks William...just making sure there are options.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Redid the base...this is more pleasing and allows mounting of the stoppers on the top flat part of the base.



I will also be doing the motor housing in CAD....saves me a whole lot of time bondo, sanding, spraying, measuring out in the backyard due to casting imperfections.


The struts will be easy to do...I figured out how to model curvatures in CAD and making adjustments base on pictures.  This will save me a whole bunch of time to make sure the struts sits properly, looks aesthetically pleasing and most importantly...the pendulum hits the stoppers on the base. 

The goal was to have this thing done within one year...well...at least the modeling part will.  After that, I will get it printed and make the mold.  I will be making a limited number of these, please post here if interested.  As for price...I will make it fair since I have no idea what the actual cost will be to cast these.  I will be making the molds myself...this will save a lot of money. 

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
The stem section will not be straight...I will put curves into it to match with the motor housing.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I know it is has taken me a couple tries...I finally have a version for the base I like.  It has the flat area to mount the stoppers for both the lollipop and vane and it has feet to prevent tipping over.  Most importantly, I have included mounting for the base plate and switch along with rubber feets.  The stem will be redone as I did not like it looking flat...it needs to have curves (not just a straight tube) along with fitting the bearings.  The overall goal is to have a nice short stumpy small cute mini-lollipop.  The struts will be designed base on the original to give it that authentic pleasing shape.  In the end, it will be worth it to make sure the design is right even if it takes a couple adjustments.





Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Just got the entire base with the stem done.  Also found out limitations of printing.  The entire stem/base model can't be printed in one single shot.  No problem, I will be cutting this in two pieces and glue them back together once I get them printed.  The entire bottom portion is done.  Has place for the commutator and brush holder and bearing holder within the stem.  Also, I made the stem slightly longer...to account for shrinkage during casting.  This can also be cut down once the bearing goes in there as a safety measure...best to make it slightly longer.  Easer to remove then to add.




This is what it should look like.










This is what I'm getting printed...two separate parts.  Will glue them back together for priming and mold making.  Then off for casting.








I've also figured out how to model the struts.  Model will be using X/Y coordinate subtraction from X/Z or Y/Z coordinate to give me three point X,Y,Z coordinate for modeling.  That will be easy to do.  After that...I need to do proportional adjustments.  I will calculate the percent of where the struts are on the 12" model to the cage and base stoppers.  Than I will measure where the struts for the original 8" R&M open commutator is on the cage and where the base is.  Doing the cage measurement will give me the proportional adjustment for the X/Y coordinate and doing the measurement from the base edge will give me the X/Z or Y/Z plane proportional adjustment.

Last edited on Mon Jul 26th, 2021 01:53 am by Louis Luu

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Also, the stem is tapered and not straight.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Finished rounding the inside housing and outside.  Also got the column tapered off.  Done.



Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Just need the motor housing and the struts. Also, virtualizing the struts in CAD allows easy adjustments to make sure everything sits proper.

The plan is to have 7.7 mm from the column remove from the base/column after casting. I want to leave that 7.7 mm extra length in the column section only to account for shrinkage during casting and bearing adjustment.

The plan for adjusting the strut is plan as follows. After I draw the housing for the motor housing, I will draw out the diameter for the back ring...lock the motor housing and cage in place and adjust the struts in terms of width, height, depth. I was going to do this by modeling in clay...too much work. This is much easier and less messy.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Also, turns out I made a stupid mistake. The bottom base and stem can be printed as a single piece. Turns out in my original submission...there was a gap between the base and the column so the computer was telling me I was stupid...can't print things in midair without it sitting on something.:?

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Trying to design the brush holder today but is proving difficult without some actual brushes.  Need to drop by ACE to see what carbon brushes are readily available.  The brush holder will be printed...no casting.
The salmon color represents the casted diameter for the base, the red commutator and the yellow the brush holder.




Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Just got done from ACE...their carbon brushes was too thick and complicated to hook up and fit in the stem.  Will be borrowing another brush/commutator contact from one of the toy motors I have.  Only question I have is this...there is this circular spring that puts tension on the brush that makes contact with the commutator...does anyone know what it is called?



George Durbin
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Nov 2nd, 2012
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Are is the measurement of the brushes you need? I have many to choose from...

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Thanks George, I decided carbon brushes are too complicated. The copper plate contact on the commutator is fine...just like the ones in the toy motors.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Does anyone know what this spring is called?  This is the only part I need to solve the commutator contact before moving to easier stuff...motor housing and struts.



William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Kula, Maui, Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
Probably called a tension spring. Meant to keep the contact in tension against the commutator.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I tried "tension spring"...no. "Torsion spring"?

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I think I found it...double torsion spring.

William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Kula, Maui, Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
Yeah, torsion spring. I google searched it and there are actually some springs available that look similar to this.Cheers,
Bill

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Fix some blemishes...decided to finalize the parts without bondo for testing purposes.  The parts will be printed out and can be tested before casting.  Working on motor housing today.





Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Got the front motor housing done today.



Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Will be drawing up the back portion to the motor housing...should be interesting. The back portion is the most interesting part to the 8" R&M open commutator fan. Let the sparks fly!

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Roughed out the back today.  Will need to double check all measurement before sending it out for printing.  The main feature of the 8" R&M open commutator is the ability to see the commutator while it spins and it will spark slightly.  









Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
The struts will be next.

William Dunlap
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jan 31st, 2014
Location: Kula, Maui, Hawaii USA
Status: 
Offline
Which CAD software are you using, Louis?
Cheers,
Bill

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Fusion 360...it is the program I had from years ago while at college...but never had the time to mess with. It does get bog down if using too many vector lines.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I started printing out the base/stem, commutator holder, brush holder, bearing assembly. Motor measurements need to be double check before sending out for printing...most likely next week.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I started to print out the bottom base and motor housing.  Picture is the actual one being printed.  Base has been shortened as the proportions were wrong...need to keep it short and stuby.  Motor housing showcases the open commutator.
I will be putting on the bearings...it all checks out...the struts will be next and off the the caster.






Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I made sure to keep the window large so the commutator can be observe while running the fan.  I remember seeing one run with the beautiful spark.  The fan once done can be converted from a mini-lollipop to a mini-vane. 




Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Both the motor housing and the stem/base should be here by this weekend. When I get them, I will post a picture side by side of the printed parts and the original 8" R&M open commutator. I did make slight modification to the window opening in the back of the motor...larger opening on the top.

John Smalley
AFCA Member


Joined: Wed Oct 18th, 2017
Location: Breaux Bridge, Louisiana USA
Status: 
Offline
Amazing craftsmanship

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Thanks John....I am trying.  I don't have the talents like some of the master restorers I admire...I do what I can.  The strut will be a lot easier to do than the base and motor housing...learned quite a bit from practicing.



I did however had to add 20 mm to the stem section to accommodate the bearings...there was no way getting around this unfortunately.  I did my best to keep it stubby.  The original total height of the stem is 100 mm.  I increase the diameter section from 34 mm to 37 mm to maintain the look/proportion "stubby".  I did make some personal modification design by adding the feet to keep it from tilting over during rotation...bottom is actually heavier than the top and opened up the view of the back portion for the commutator.  The unique features of this fan is watching the sparks...not too much...just enough for fun.



I will also make personal modification to the struts...just the portion where the cage is clipped on.  The original holders for the 8" R&M did not use any clips or screws...just a "U-shaped" bracket to hold the back square cage.  I will post pictures later on this week when I do the struts.  The goal for the struts is to maintain the curvature...that is what makes the original lollipop unique.  The only thing I will be doing is making adjustments to hold the cage size for the mini-lollipop.



There will also be a miniaturized blade hub designed after an original one...just shrunken down for the 8".


I will try to keep the cost down for the casting...these will be done as kits allowing others to modify them for either lollipop or vane oscillation.

I am debating on the badge.  I received a small 8" R&M open commutator from Daniel...it is too beautiful to mess with.  I am only taking spare parts open commutator for modification.  Now, the unique thing about Daniel's open commutator it is a rebadge with a miniaturized "Hunter" badge which I have never seen before.  I will probably cast a few for myself unless there is a demand.  Otherwise, the original 8" R&M flag emblem is still being made...just need the rope and letterings drawn up....can not be casted...must be printed.  I do have the option of printing in bronze or brass.  The expense is under $50 for the 8" R&M flag.  The mini-Hunter badge will need to be casted because the amount of metal used is too expensive to print.  I can make the mold off of Daniel's fan.


John Smalley wrote: Amazing craftsmanship

Richard Daugird
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Sep 12th, 2017
Location: Texas City, Between Hou. & Galveston, Texas USA
Status: 
Offline
Anxious to see the castings! I need to find a parts fan so I can have one of these. Are all 8" R&M open commutators the same?

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
No!  Please don't use the rare or good condition ones.  I wish I had a DC...I would have kept it original.  The ones I'm using are the regular stumps (non-DC, missing switch).  If it is unique...I say keep it original.  I am definitely keeping the one Daniel sent me...a Hunter rebadge.  That fan is way cool!  I will take pictures when I get home this weekend.

The basic model came in two styles...straight stem and the other with a knuckle between the stem and motor...both had the same motor housing. What you should be looking for is to make sure the commutator is in good condition.  If the stator is bad...that is not a big deal....just a basic rewind.  The coils are very simple....so simple and yet I can not do it....there are people around who can do this.  If the motor is crack...I would say that is a perfect candidate.  I am using bad ones for this project!

Richard Daugird wrote: Anxious to see the castings! I need to find a parts fan so I can have one of these. Are all 8" R&M open commutators the same?

Richard Daugird
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Sep 12th, 2017
Location: Texas City, Between Hou. & Galveston, Texas USA
Status: 
Offline
Louis Luu wrote: No!  Please don't use the rare or good condition ones.   If the motor is crack...I would say that is a perfect candidate.  I am using bad ones for this project!

Richard Daugird wrote: Anxious to see the castings! I need to find a parts fan so I can have one of these. Are all 8" R&M open commutators the same?
That is what I'm looking for, parts fans.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
This project would not be possible without the volunteer of some of the restorers and machinist here I admire! The casting will need new wings for the hub and cage and the casting will require drilling and some tapping for screws to fit the plate for the base and switch and new brush holders and brush holders for the motor housing and mounting the motor. That is a lot of "and". I am very grateful for the help!

Last edited on Wed Aug 4th, 2021 05:55 pm by Louis Luu

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I could cast the motor housing and base with the holes for screws...but that would present quite a challenge for the lost wax mold and flaws during casting. I am trying to minimize the amount of things that can go wrong during casting. Holes in single direction is fine but holes perpendicular causes a headache!

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I did talk to Mike Petree who did the previous mini-lollipop. After talking with him, I realized the amount of machining that is required and why it was so difficult to make these. He told me that while these fans may look the same, there are minor differences...enough that he had to make it one at a time. I am solving this problem by doing this from a single casting and all the bearing parts would be off the shelf including the middle long screw that holds the motor and allow wires to run through it. I am basically using a lamp tube that already has the thread. Since the stem will be short and the bearing portion will be supported with internal part for the bearings...the use of lamp parts for the stem screw will not be a problem.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Got home from a long day and forgot my base was coming today.  I opened the box and the base is gorgeous.  I immediately dried fitted everything.  There is plenty of clearance for the commutator and the bearing is perfect...still spins.  Unfortunately, the motor casing was not here yet so I dried fitted my motor.  The motor casing I drew up is actually modified slightly with a larger window opening into the rotor.  It is squat and gorgeous.  I love the feet.  The feet even has rubber bumpers.  The only thing left is the struts and hub design. 





I am in such a rush I don't even have time to trim the pictures or put them in order.  It is gorgeous and I am picky!












































Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Also, the motor casing on mine has a lip at the base just like the vane oscillator to give it a little class.

George Durbin
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Nov 2nd, 2012
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Louis Luu wrote: Also, the motor casing on mine has a lip at the base just like the vane oscillator to give it a little class.
All I can say is HOLY FREAKING COW!!

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I am going to make the commutator holder into a swing door.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Also, I will keep the top portion "half rib". The rest will be primed and smoothed out.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
I like the look of this so will keep.  The rest will be smoothed.




Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
The bearings are rated for "Static load rating of 5000 newtons and dynamic load rating of 2350 newtons" I am using one on each end of the stem. I know it is overkill.

Rob Duffy
AFCA Member


Joined: Fri Jun 27th, 2008
Location: USA
Status: 
Offline
What is that base and motor housing made out of? That looks impressive!

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Printed ABS plastic for now.  I am using it as a pattern for making a mold for casting in bronze.  The entire base/stem/motor housing/struts will be cast in bronze.

Rob Duffy wrote: What is that base and motor housing made out of? That looks impressive!

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
There are various plastic available...that was the cheapest. Once finalized, the small parts will be printed in good quality plastic. Large objects can not be printed in metal yet as this is relatively new technology. Small parts like gears can be printed. I will be experimenting with that when I have time. Spur and Worm gears can be design in CAD with great accuracy. Still, the quality does not hold up to a talented machinist! You can see the difference under a microscope.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
All good to go.  I checked for motor clearance and commutator clearance and fit.  Next will be the curvy stylish strut.  I will begin work on it next week.














John Smalley
AFCA Member


Joined: Wed Oct 18th, 2017
Location: Breaux Bridge, Louisiana USA
Status: 
Offline
Amazing craftsmanship

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Goal is to have one auction and proceeds go to a great cause...must be fan related. This project would not be possible without the help of numerous people helping out.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Nope...this is just drawing on computer and parts printed...minimal craftsmanship.  I am still jealous of some of the amazing restoration posted.

John Smalley wrote: Amazing craftsmanship

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Have not given up. I am pushing forward with the struts in December when I have time off. The Demott motor was a quickie project since there is no weird curvatures to draw. I have been practicing on drawing spider hubs for members free of charge.

Richard Daugird
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Sep 12th, 2017
Location: Texas City, Between Hou. & Galveston, Texas USA
Status: 
Offline
Looking good Louis.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Good morning Richard and Happy Thanks Giving. I have not forgotten about your fan...It will go out. I have several items to mail out. George, William and you.

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Richard...check the Demott motor project. That was a quickie since there is no weird geometry to draw.


https://new.afcaforum.com/index.php?/topic/291-demott-bipolar-fan/

Ron May
AFCA Member


Joined: Sat Oct 6th, 2012
Location: Sebewaing, Michigan USA
Status: 
Offline
That sure takes the hard work out of building one of these! I had to make and remake several of my pieces until it was fine tuned and working properly. Unfortunately I only took a few snapshots of it before it was picked up but here's a few shots of it.

Attached Image (viewed 52 times):

IMG_20210816_200729937.jpg

Last edited on Wed Nov 24th, 2021 08:51 pm by Ron May

Ron May
AFCA Member


Joined: Sat Oct 6th, 2012
Location: Sebewaing, Michigan USA
Status: 
Offline
.

Attached Image (viewed 51 times):

IMG_20210816_200721067.jpg

Last edited on Wed Nov 24th, 2021 08:52 pm by Ron May

Ron May
AFCA Member


Joined: Sat Oct 6th, 2012
Location: Sebewaing, Michigan USA
Status: 
Offline
.

Attached Image (viewed 50 times):

IMG_20210816_200656532.jpg

Last edited on Wed Nov 24th, 2021 08:53 pm by Ron May

Ron May
AFCA Member


Joined: Sat Oct 6th, 2012
Location: Sebewaing, Michigan USA
Status: 
Offline
.

Attached Image (viewed 49 times):

IMG_20210816_200630741.jpg

Last edited on Wed Nov 24th, 2021 08:54 pm by Ron May

Louis Luu
AFCA Member
 

Joined: Sat Oct 2nd, 2010
Location:  
Status: 
Offline
Ron...that does look nice. I am aiming at making it a mini...as close to the original as possible. It does take a little bit more work but in the end it will be worth it.


The strut holder reminds me of the Veritys holder.

Richard Daugird
AFCA Member


Joined: Tue Sep 12th, 2017
Location: Texas City, Between Hou. & Galveston, Texas USA
Status: 
Offline
Ron, if you trim the edge of the photo even a tiny bit they will display correctly.

P.S. That fan is incredible!

Last edited on Wed Nov 24th, 2021 05:42 pm by Richard Daugird

Ron May
AFCA Member


Joined: Sat Oct 6th, 2012
Location: Sebewaing, Michigan USA
Status: 
Offline
Richard Daugird wrote: Ron, if you trim the edge of the photo even a tiny bit they will display correctly.

P.S. That fan is incredible!
Thanks Richard, that worked!


Beige Theme By: Di @ UltraBB
UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.1686 seconds (16% database + 84% PHP). 41 queries executed.